go_around

Re my above comment, the SU95 at KEF was a "surprise" belly landing too.

joshwex90

LY being privatized has nothing to do with a near crash. Even if privatization can be linked to improvements or regressions in the hard and/or soft product, a business decision has nothing to do with the negligence of a pilot.

(OT, but regarding your points of privatization - they don't make sense. You claim that before being privatized, LY didn't need to worry about competition, and was therefore a competitive airline. Now that they have to deal with competition, that's what makes them not competitive? I believe that the downward slide has to do with other factors. Privatization has improved other Israeli companies. Don't see why that would've had the opposite effect on LY.)

ELY001

But here you are wrong. You need to understand how organizational behavior and culture have a significant role in the negligence of company employees. These sort of negligent incidence almost never took place at EL AL prior to privatization. For a fleet of around 40 a/c EL AL most certainly has a high level of incidence, both mechanical and human error based, and those incidence grew in number and severity significantly after privatization. Saying privatization had "nothing" to do with the near crash is rather ridiculous. To believe that just because something cannot be immediately linked (EL AL's privatization and the near crash caused by pilot error) is a flaw in logical reasoning.

Also, your example of other former state owned companies in Israel going private and being financially successful really has no bearing upon what is being discussed about EL AL and it's privatization. For starters, those Israeli companies that did go private reformed their corporate structure and cultures which enabled them to effectively compete in the marketplace; Bezeq being a good example of such. No similar process took place inside EL AL post privatization and therefore the company is in the dire position it is currently.

joshwex90

I really don't follow your logic. You say that "Never before privatization did an incident like this happen, then LY was privatized, then this happened; ergo, privatization caused this." I very much understand these matters, and unless I'm missing something, you're blaming it on that due to non-causal links.

As for others, my point absolutely stands. You blame privatization. Those companies prove that privatization isn't the issue, but rather what the company does after. It shows that privatization *usually* is good for the company and the consumer, and LY kinda screwed this one up.

ELY001

You're right because you take what I wrote out of context and inject words (I never wrote) into sentences and ascribe quotes.

I'll make it very simple for you: While EL AL's privatization in and of itself may not be the direct cause for the negligence of the cockpit crew on this specific flight, the fact that EL AL's privatization is a failure because the company was neither reformed structurally nor culturally and instead declined (both internally and externally) led to the current state of affairs where mechanical failures are way too numerous for a fleet of 40 a/c and egregious pilot negligence is becoming more common.

This 'debate' (if you can call it as such) was sparked by your assertion that EL AL's privatization (and its effects on the company) have "absolutely nothing" to do with the incident of pilot negligence this thread is centered on. I say that it is extremely absurd to think that for the reason I highlighted above.

Your point on privatization does not stand (despite your assertion thereof) simply because we are discussing EL AL and asserting the success of other privatized Israeli companies is out of context for the discussion we are having about EL AL and whether EL AL's privatization is the cause, directly or indirectly, of the rash of pilot negligence in recent years.

I hope the above aids in your understanding. Might I also suggest you take a business course on Organizational Behavior so that you have a better frame of academic reference for this particular subject matter.

joshwex90

Your explanation did not aid, and isn't rooted in even a cursory understanding of economics or cause-and-effect. (With a degree in Economics and an MBA which includes advanced studies in OB, I believe I'm well aware. Not only that, but as this was done in an Israeli university, the course was uniquely suited for understanding Israeli organizations structure and mentality.)

It is pointless to continue as this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and there is no convincing you.

ELY001

Oh please, lets not embellish our credentials for the sake of trying to assert a claim on an internet forum.

If you indeed have a degree in Economics and an MBA you would have known better than to dismiss out of hand the notion that EL AL's failed privatization likely contributed to the current situation of increasing pilot negligence. You would have seen the connection how a failed privatization could lead to stagnation, decline, and systemic pilot negligence. Instead, you dismissed it out of hand and said it had "absolutely nothing" to do with it while pointing to unnamed Israeli companies that went through a privatization process successfully (as if that had anything to do with what we were discussing).

You can't convince me because your assertion was completely erroneous and the vague example you provided demonstrated an inability to stay on topic and point yourself.

joshwex90

Remember how I said there was no point in continuing? Yet now, not only do you continue, you specifically attack me as a person, claiming I've "embellished my credentials" (though there are numerous on this board who can attest to them), as opposed to simply attacking my position. I never once called you a liar. Welcome to the block list

ELY001

Well you made a personal claim about yourself (I presume it was done in order to bolster your point of view; at least that's how it appeared to me) and I replied to that claim; namely that I believe it was an embellishment in a manner similar to the way I voiced my opinion to your claim that EL AL's privatization had "absolutely nothing" to do with the rash of pilot mishaps. If you make a claim, I have a right to disagree in a civil manner; which I believe I have done.

EL-AL 1971

The way a business is managed has EVERYTHING to do with the negligence of a whole cockpit crew. And it has even more to do with series of serious and frightening safety incidents taking place in a transportation company.


Business decisions are shaping the hiring policy of a company and a "business decision" lies behind every hiring. Who is fit to become a pilot? Background? Formation? Experience?

Business decisions are dictating how and how frequently cockpit crews have to be trained and motivated.

Business decisions are shaping the way maintenance is organized.

Business decisions have thus everything to do with the safety records of an airline, and this is one of the reasons why organisational issues play such an important role in civil aviation.

A badly managed company will have a higher risk of experiencing an accident.

El Al has a looooong history of being badly managed, this was also true when it was a State owned company - you know it certainly as well as me. However, the way pilots were hired was different. And this is of course not the only element which has changed - for the worse - since privatization. Being *profitable* has become the central objective, although El Al is far from attaining it. But in the hope of reaching this objective, some dangerously bad decisions are being taken, and some of them are obviously raising the risk of a serious incident.

But I know, this point of view is almost unconceivable for 99.9% of my fellow Israelis and Jews abroad, for whom El Al represents the embodiment of the highest standards of safety and security in the world of civil aviation.

JohnnyUMF

Just want to inject some sanity and reinforce that what your saying makes sense 100% based on my understanding of both human behavior and Israeli culture. That your point is not understood is hard for me to make sense of.

Uh Clem

Around 20 years ago I was flying into SEA. I remember as we were about to land I thought it was odd that I never heard the wheels go down. At the last minute, the pilot aborted the landing and as we gained altitude I never heard the wheels go up. The pilot announced the reason for the aborted landing was there was another plane on our runway. When we came in for our 2nd landing attempt I did hear the wheels go down.