Is everyone on FT a wine connoisseur?
Jun 19, 2017, 4:18 pm
#62
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I could name dozens of Napa Cabernets that I consider to more representative of and superior values compared to Opus One.
If you want some proper Napa Cabernets that are superior to Opus One, you might start with any of the following, in addition to the aforementioned Pahlmeyer:
Chateau Montelena Estate,
Robert Mondavi Reserve (This starts out as the same basic juice from the same vineyards as Opus One, then gets a more measured oak regimen than Opus, and is sold for about 1/2 the price, and is, IMHO, consistently better than Opus),
Joseph Phelps any single vineyard,
Dominus Estate
Franciscan Magnificat
Shafer Hillside Select
Stags Leap Wine Cellars either Cask 23, SLV, or Fay Vineyards
Silverado Vineyards Estate Reserve,
Groth Vineyards,
Forman Winery
Grgich Hills Estate
Beringer Vineyards Reserve or Chabot Vineyards
Diamond Creek Vineyards (any vineyard)
Niebaum Coppola Rubicon
There are probably several dozen other equally worthy ones, but this is a worthwhile starting point. The Robert Mondavi Reserve and the Beringer Reserve are probably the most widely available of these.
I'm still drinking my Chateau Montelena, Forman, and Diamond Creek cabernets from the better vintages of the 1980s and 1990s.
If you want some proper Napa Cabernets that are superior to Opus One, you might start with any of the following, in addition to the aforementioned Pahlmeyer:
Chateau Montelena Estate,
Robert Mondavi Reserve (This starts out as the same basic juice from the same vineyards as Opus One, then gets a more measured oak regimen than Opus, and is sold for about 1/2 the price, and is, IMHO, consistently better than Opus),
Joseph Phelps any single vineyard,
Dominus Estate
Franciscan Magnificat
Shafer Hillside Select
Stags Leap Wine Cellars either Cask 23, SLV, or Fay Vineyards
Silverado Vineyards Estate Reserve,
Groth Vineyards,
Forman Winery
Grgich Hills Estate
Beringer Vineyards Reserve or Chabot Vineyards
Diamond Creek Vineyards (any vineyard)
Niebaum Coppola Rubicon
There are probably several dozen other equally worthy ones, but this is a worthwhile starting point. The Robert Mondavi Reserve and the Beringer Reserve are probably the most widely available of these.
I'm still drinking my Chateau Montelena, Forman, and Diamond Creek cabernets from the better vintages of the 1980s and 1990s.
Jun 19, 2017, 4:45 pm
#63
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I could name dozens of Napa Cabernets that I consider to more representative of and superior values compared to Opus One.
If you want some proper Napa Cabernets that are superior to Opus One, you might start with any of the following, in addition to the aforementioned Pahlmeyer:
Chateau Montelena Estate,
Robert Mondavi Reserve (This starts out as the same basic juice from the same vineyards as Opus One, then gets a more measured oak regimen than Opus, and is sold for about 1/2 the price, and is, IMHO, consistently better than Opus),
Joseph Phelps any single vineyard,
Dominus Estate
Franciscan Magnificat
Shafer Hillside Select
Stags Leap Wine Cellars either Cask 23, SLV, or Fay Vineyards
Silverado Vineyards Estate Reserve,
Groth Vineyards,
Forman Winery
Grgich Hills Estate
Beringer Vineyards Reserve or Chabot Vineyards
Diamond Creek Vineyards (any vineyard)
Niebaum Coppola Rubicon
There are probably several dozen other equally worthy ones, but this is a worthwhile starting point. The Robert Mondavi Reserve and the Beringer Reserve are probably the most widely available of these.
I'm still drinking my Chateau Montelena, Forman, and Diamond Creek cabernets from the better vintages of the 1980s and 1990s.
If you want some proper Napa Cabernets that are superior to Opus One, you might start with any of the following, in addition to the aforementioned Pahlmeyer:
Chateau Montelena Estate,
Robert Mondavi Reserve (This starts out as the same basic juice from the same vineyards as Opus One, then gets a more measured oak regimen than Opus, and is sold for about 1/2 the price, and is, IMHO, consistently better than Opus),
Joseph Phelps any single vineyard,
Dominus Estate
Franciscan Magnificat
Shafer Hillside Select
Stags Leap Wine Cellars either Cask 23, SLV, or Fay Vineyards
Silverado Vineyards Estate Reserve,
Groth Vineyards,
Forman Winery
Grgich Hills Estate
Beringer Vineyards Reserve or Chabot Vineyards
Diamond Creek Vineyards (any vineyard)
Niebaum Coppola Rubicon
There are probably several dozen other equally worthy ones, but this is a worthwhile starting point. The Robert Mondavi Reserve and the Beringer Reserve are probably the most widely available of these.
I'm still drinking my Chateau Montelena, Forman, and Diamond Creek cabernets from the better vintages of the 1980s and 1990s.
Jun 20, 2017, 2:05 pm
#65
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Besides, as you stated later, unless there is a problem, all of the added sugar is required to be turned into alcohol. Chaptalization is strictly regulated by the relevant authorities.
In my personal experience, I have never had a overly sweet Burgundy.
This has been a rather educational thread.
Last edited by cblaisd; Jun 27, 2017 at 12:39 pm Reason: merged poster's two consecutive posts
Jun 21, 2017, 2:46 pm
#66
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Excellent point above about how wine (and food) tastes different in pressurised aircraft cabins. Bigger, bolder flavours seem to work better and subtlety seems to be lost. So New World wine is generally a good choice, but I avoid wines from the USA as they tend to be very sweet.
Example: Turley makes a big (huge)-bodied zinfandel that is nothing less than a bomb of fruit going off in your glass, but it is not at all sweet.
*Unless you drink only dessert wines.
Jun 21, 2017, 3:15 pm
#67
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I think you are confusing fruitiness with sweetness*. They are markedly different things. Fruity wines - which is a common style in New World winemaking - can be almost overpowering with flavors of plum, berries, cherries, and others BUT THEY ARE NOT SWEET. European wines, in contrast, tend to have much more restrained fruit that is in more balance with the acids and other flavor influencers (tannins, acids, etc).
Example: Turley makes a big (huge)-bodied zinfandel that is nothing less than a bomb of fruit going off in your glass, but it is not at all sweet.
*Unless you drink only dessert wines.
Example: Turley makes a big (huge)-bodied zinfandel that is nothing less than a bomb of fruit going off in your glass, but it is not at all sweet.
*Unless you drink only dessert wines.
Thats why Napa wines are almost always more fruit forward at young ages than their counterparts in Bordeaux. That's also why you can drink a good Napa wine much younger than you can a comparable wine from Bordeaux. That's why Australian and California Syrah/Shiraz at younger ages are more fruit forward than their counterparts in the Rhone--and why northern Rhone wines can have a meaty flavor often missing in comparable wines from other regions. Soil can play a factor here, too.
Cooler climes also can allow characteristics to develop which allow some wines to age more gracefully and for longer periods. But that isn't always true--which is why Napa/Sonoma wines can be more fruit forward and still age as well as--if not better than--their Bordeaux counterparts.
Burgundy is just about the only place in the world where the growing conditions and soils in that Old World location easily best or at least equal those of almost any other New World location thus found. Pinot Noir is also one of the trickiest grapes to grow...so having older rootstock plays a major role in the wine's complexity--for those who can and do appreciate that. That and soil type play a major role in allowing some--but not most--white Burgundy to age much longer than their California counterparts. Reislings are another grape that applauds only certain regions around the Old World and rarely the New.
Last edited by bhrubin; Jun 21, 2017 at 6:04 pm
Jun 21, 2017, 5:29 pm
#68
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I too love and enjoy and collect wine. This was a wonderful post and I totally agree with the views expressed. Wine is made to be enjoyed. If you enjoy good food, wine is an enhancement. Do not be afraid to try new and different wines. There is a saying there are no great wines just great bottles. Keep an open mind, experiment and be open to new wines and be prepared to be surprised when you find out what you thought you didn't like , you love.
Jun 21, 2017, 10:04 pm
#69
Join Date: Feb 2004
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I lived in Chile for many years, so I try to pick Chilean wines when I see them. Bear in mind, land and labor prices are lower in South America than in France and California, so don't equate price with quality.
I often recommend Santa Rita Medalla Real, an excellent Chilean red that costs less than $20, to people looking for a good wine for a special dinner or party or hostess gift. Lovely old traditional winery, Santa Rita, one of the oldest in Chile, just south of Santiago. For whites, Casa Lapostalle's sauvignon blanc is excellent. In general, for red or white wine from Chile, I'd always recommend Santa Rita, Santa Carolina, Cousiño Macul, Casa Lapostalle, Concha y Toro (including Frontera), and Errazuriz. I would love to have any of those on hand right now.
Jun 21, 2017, 10:57 pm
#70
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While I've learned a lot from this thread, I think I'm with your wife. I drink wine every day and prefer it to other alcoholic drinks, but I'm no connoisseur, and I'm fairly happy with any wine, except sweet ones like moscato. I hope you and your wife have something like a Trader Joe's or Costco near you, some shop like that that makes it easy to try a lot of different wines, domestic and imported, for less than $10.
I lived in Chile for many years, so I try to pick Chilean wines when I see them. Bear in mind, land and labor prices are lower in South America than in France and California, so don't equate price with quality.
I often recommend Santa Rita Medalla Real, an excellent Chilean red that costs less than $20, to people looking for a good wine for a special dinner or party or hostess gift. Lovely old traditional winery, Santa Rita, one of the oldest in Chile, just south of Santiago. For whites, Casa Lapostalle's sauvignon blanc is excellent. In general, for red or white wine from Chile, I'd always recommend Santa Rita, Santa Carolina, Cousiño Macul, Casa Lapostalle, Concha y Toro (including Frontera), and Errazuriz. I would love to have any of those on hand right now.
I lived in Chile for many years, so I try to pick Chilean wines when I see them. Bear in mind, land and labor prices are lower in South America than in France and California, so don't equate price with quality.
I often recommend Santa Rita Medalla Real, an excellent Chilean red that costs less than $20, to people looking for a good wine for a special dinner or party or hostess gift. Lovely old traditional winery, Santa Rita, one of the oldest in Chile, just south of Santiago. For whites, Casa Lapostalle's sauvignon blanc is excellent. In general, for red or white wine from Chile, I'd always recommend Santa Rita, Santa Carolina, Cousiño Macul, Casa Lapostalle, Concha y Toro (including Frontera), and Errazuriz. I would love to have any of those on hand right now.
Jun 22, 2017, 1:20 pm
#71
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Warmer climes allow grapes to ripen more, allowing more sugar (which becomes alcohol during fermentation) and more compounds giving rise to fruity flavor. That is why many New World wine regions--many of which are warmer than counterparts in the Old World--produce wines that are more fruit forward and have more alcohol.
Thats why Napa wines are almost always more fruit forward at young ages than their counterparts in Bordeaux. That's also why you can drink a good Napa wine much younger than you can a comparable wine from Bordeaux. That's why Australian and California Syrah/Shiraz at younger ages are more fruit forward than their counterparts in the Rhone--and why northern Rhone wines can have a meaty flavor often missing in comparable wines from other regions. Soil can play a factor here, too.
Cooler climes also can allow characteristics to develop which allow some wines to age more gracefully and for longer periods. But that isn't always true--which is why Napa/Sonoma wines can be more fruit forward and still age as well as--if not better than--their Bordeaux counterparts.
Burgundy is just about the only place in the world where the growing conditions and soils in that Old World location easily best or at least equal those of almost any other New World location thus found. Pinot Noir is also one of the trickiest grapes to grow...so having older rootstock plays a major role in the wine's complexity--for those who can and do appreciate that. That and soil type play a major role in allowing some--but not most--white Burgundy to age much longer than their California counterparts. Reislings are another grape that applauds only certain regions around the Old World and rarely the New.
Thats why Napa wines are almost always more fruit forward at young ages than their counterparts in Bordeaux. That's also why you can drink a good Napa wine much younger than you can a comparable wine from Bordeaux. That's why Australian and California Syrah/Shiraz at younger ages are more fruit forward than their counterparts in the Rhone--and why northern Rhone wines can have a meaty flavor often missing in comparable wines from other regions. Soil can play a factor here, too.
Cooler climes also can allow characteristics to develop which allow some wines to age more gracefully and for longer periods. But that isn't always true--which is why Napa/Sonoma wines can be more fruit forward and still age as well as--if not better than--their Bordeaux counterparts.
Burgundy is just about the only place in the world where the growing conditions and soils in that Old World location easily best or at least equal those of almost any other New World location thus found. Pinot Noir is also one of the trickiest grapes to grow...so having older rootstock plays a major role in the wine's complexity--for those who can and do appreciate that. That and soil type play a major role in allowing some--but not most--white Burgundy to age much longer than their California counterparts. Reislings are another grape that applauds only certain regions around the Old World and rarely the New.
Jun 22, 2017, 7:03 pm
#72
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Location: Tokyo, Japan (or Vienna whenever possible)
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Warmer climes allow grapes to ripen more, allowing more sugar (which becomes alcohol during fermentation) and more compounds giving rise to fruity flavor. That is why many New World wine regions--many of which are warmer than counterparts in the Old World--produce wines that are more fruit forward and have more alcohol.
Thats why Napa wines are almost always more fruit forward at young ages than their counterparts in Bordeaux. That's also why you can drink a good Napa wine much younger than you can a comparable wine from Bordeaux. That's why Australian and California Syrah/Shiraz at younger ages are more fruit forward than their counterparts in the Rhone--and why northern Rhone wines can have a meaty flavor often missing in comparable wines from other regions. Soil can play a factor here, too.
Cooler climes also can allow characteristics to develop which allow some wines to age more gracefully and for longer periods. But that isn't always true--which is why Napa/Sonoma wines can be more fruit forward and still age as well as--if not better than--their Bordeaux counterparts.
Thats why Napa wines are almost always more fruit forward at young ages than their counterparts in Bordeaux. That's also why you can drink a good Napa wine much younger than you can a comparable wine from Bordeaux. That's why Australian and California Syrah/Shiraz at younger ages are more fruit forward than their counterparts in the Rhone--and why northern Rhone wines can have a meaty flavor often missing in comparable wines from other regions. Soil can play a factor here, too.
Cooler climes also can allow characteristics to develop which allow some wines to age more gracefully and for longer periods. But that isn't always true--which is why Napa/Sonoma wines can be more fruit forward and still age as well as--if not better than--their Bordeaux counterparts.
So if these grapes are maturing faster and acid is being depleted and sugar is elevating it stands to reason that if a winemaker wanted to make a longer loved wine (acid allows for that) they should pick when the balance was there. Unfortunately the palate of many American consumers, the largest consumption market worldwide now, favors bigger fruitier wines and so the winemakers allow the grapes to hang for much longer than is considered reasonable in Europe. The result? The Napa Cabs of the world. There are a few exceptions in Napa but the general approach there is a long hang and a bigger wine. Unfortunately that effectively kills its ability to age well. All the wines that have aged so well and won competitions against the European wines have been from a different winemaking school of thought,, i.e. more acid, less fruit.
Jun 22, 2017, 7:44 pm
#73
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A bit more detail is needed though. The heat exposure allows grapes to ripen more in the same period of time but also causes them to ripen faster. The trade off is the acidity level in the grapes. It is the perfect combination of sugar and acid that is sought in old world wines and more or less forgotten outside of Sonoma for New World wines.
So if these grapes are maturing faster and acid is being depleted and sugar is elevating it stands to reason that if a winemaker wanted to make a longer loved wine (acid allows for that) they should pick when the balance was there. Unfortunately the palate of many American consumers, the largest consumption market worldwide now, favors bigger fruitier wines and so the winemakers allow the grapes to hang for much longer than is considered reasonable in Europe. The result? The Napa Cabs of the world. There are a few exceptions in Napa but the general approach there is a long hang and a bigger wine. Unfortunately that effectively kills its ability to age well. All the wines that have aged so well and won competitions against the European wines have been from a different winemaking school of thought,, i.e. more acid, less fruit.
So if these grapes are maturing faster and acid is being depleted and sugar is elevating it stands to reason that if a winemaker wanted to make a longer loved wine (acid allows for that) they should pick when the balance was there. Unfortunately the palate of many American consumers, the largest consumption market worldwide now, favors bigger fruitier wines and so the winemakers allow the grapes to hang for much longer than is considered reasonable in Europe. The result? The Napa Cabs of the world. There are a few exceptions in Napa but the general approach there is a long hang and a bigger wine. Unfortunately that effectively kills its ability to age well. All the wines that have aged so well and won competitions against the European wines have been from a different winemaking school of thought,, i.e. more acid, less fruit.
To this day, the best drinking cabs in my cellar are top-tier Napa cabs from the vintages between 1978 and 1995.
One example of this is the Sterling Reserve Cabernet from 1978. In 1995, this wine was a ringer that I threw into a tasting of First-growth Bordeaux from top vintages of the 1970s and 1980s and it was the consensus wine of the tasting among about 50 highly knowledgeable Bordeaux collectors in New York City. The 2nd and 3rd most preferred wines in the tasting were 1982 Ch. Latour and 1986 Chateau Mouton. Only over the last 8-10 years has this wine started to show it's age in 750ml bottles, and it is still singing in larger format bottles (I still have 2 magnums and a 6 liter of this wine remaining, I polished off my last 750 of this wine about 4 years ago. This wine was so good that even a corked bottle of it, that was opened in 2001, after about 2 hours the corkiness blew off to reveal the wine at nearly it's usual greatness.
Other examples are Diamond Creek 1984s from all 4 of their vineyards. They were great at age 5, and they still taste young today with over 32 years of age.
These were highly extracted long-hang fruit-forward cabernets that have stood the test of time. They are not by any means unique in this regard. If someone wants to throw a wine-do somewhere in the near future, I'll pony up a a magnum of '78 Sterling, or a 750 of Diamond Creek '84 Gravelly Meadow or a 1991 Chateau Montelena as my entry ticket.
Jun 22, 2017, 8:29 pm
#74
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The contention that big, fruit-forward Napa cabs don't age well is a myth perpetrated by folks with an agenda to push favoring old-world wines. I have MANY top tier Napa cabs in my cellar that were delicious at age 4, and continue to be delicious at age 30.
To this day, the best drinking cabs in my cellar are top-tier Napa cabs from the vintages between 1978 and 1995.
One example of this is the Sterling Reserve Cabernet from 1978. In 1995, this wine was a ringer that I threw into a tasting of First-growth Bordeaux from top vintages of the 1970s and 1980s and it was the consensus wine of the tasting among about 50 highly knowledgeable Bordeaux collectors in New York City. The 2nd and 3rd most preferred wines in the tasting were 1982 Ch. Latour and 1986 Chateau Mouton. Only over the last 8-10 years has this wine started to show it's age in 750ml bottles, and it is still singing in larger format bottles (I still have 2 magnums and a 6 liter of this wine remaining, I polished off my last 750 of this wine about 4 years ago. This wine was so good that even a corked bottle of it, that was opened in 2001, after about 2 hours the corkiness blew off to reveal the wine at nearly it's usual greatness.
Other examples are Diamond Creek 1984s from all 4 of their vineyards. They were great at age 5, and they still taste young today with over 32 years of age.
These were highly extracted long-hang fruit-forward cabernets that have stood the test of time. They are not by any means unique in this regard. If someone wants to throw a wine-do somewhere in the near future, I'll pony up a a magnum of '78 Sterling, or a 750 of Diamond Creek '84 Gravelly Meadow or a 1991 Chateau Montelena as my entry ticket.
To this day, the best drinking cabs in my cellar are top-tier Napa cabs from the vintages between 1978 and 1995.
One example of this is the Sterling Reserve Cabernet from 1978. In 1995, this wine was a ringer that I threw into a tasting of First-growth Bordeaux from top vintages of the 1970s and 1980s and it was the consensus wine of the tasting among about 50 highly knowledgeable Bordeaux collectors in New York City. The 2nd and 3rd most preferred wines in the tasting were 1982 Ch. Latour and 1986 Chateau Mouton. Only over the last 8-10 years has this wine started to show it's age in 750ml bottles, and it is still singing in larger format bottles (I still have 2 magnums and a 6 liter of this wine remaining, I polished off my last 750 of this wine about 4 years ago. This wine was so good that even a corked bottle of it, that was opened in 2001, after about 2 hours the corkiness blew off to reveal the wine at nearly it's usual greatness.
Other examples are Diamond Creek 1984s from all 4 of their vineyards. They were great at age 5, and they still taste young today with over 32 years of age.
These were highly extracted long-hang fruit-forward cabernets that have stood the test of time. They are not by any means unique in this regard. If someone wants to throw a wine-do somewhere in the near future, I'll pony up a a magnum of '78 Sterling, or a 750 of Diamond Creek '84 Gravelly Meadow or a 1991 Chateau Montelena as my entry ticket.
Well a couple things. First of all, not a myth, it is science that the aging process to the extent that the character stays more or less unchanged as flavors evolve is assisted by the acidity. But that aside, wines of all sorts, some with no acidity whatsoever, age quite well. Napa (the greater Napa area) is blessed with a wide variety of microclimates that have and still do produce some of the best cab sav in the world no doubt. The industry unfortunately caters to the public all too often instead of creating their art for the sake of art. There are, as you mention, several very good examples of art for art however. As for Bordeaux, I struggle with a lot of what os made there because of how it is made blend-wise. NEver been a vegetal character fan anyway. If Bordeaux, give me right bank as Merlot is Bordeaux's best red export IMHO.
Wine gathering, oh heck yes! I will pony up a few good and old bottles too. A wine gathering with decent wine sounds fun. Feb. 2018 in the Bay Area is a real possibility.....
Jun 22, 2017, 11:18 pm
#75
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There are a few exceptions in Napa but the general approach there is a long hang and a bigger wine. Unfortunately that effectively kills its ability to age well. All the wines that have aged so well and won competitions against the European wines have been from a different winemaking school of thought,, i.e. more acid, less fruit.
Your contention that Napa wines from the 1970s era might age well but those from the 1980s, 1990s, and 2000s won't as well as Bordeaux is similarly put to shame by innumerable wine tastings for the past several decades. You are simply spouting nonsense perpetuated by the French...since they've lost twice already and don't want to try again.
The better Napa/Sonoma cabs and blends are always better than the French younger..and almost always better than the French when older, too.
The facts hurt....but they still are facts.