Sourdough
Jan 24, 2015, 8:56 pm
#91
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Jan 25, 2015, 8:14 am
#92
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That is perfect bread and looks really tasty.
The whole point of the stone is that you must heat it for a long time. So you're not heating the oven, until the light goes out but heating the stone for as long as you can say 40 minutes to an hour after the oven has reached maximum heat. the stone draws moisture out of the base of the bread and caramelises the surface and crisps it. Also, use semolina in place of flour for the base of the bread if you can. That adds crispness. if you look at the bagels up thread there is a picture of a base of one . Because bagels are boiled they are wet and so I use semolina to absorb some of the water and add crispness.
Foil cooks bread in its own steam. It is pointless putting foil onto the stone. The stone won't be adding any value. So make yourself a peel or buy one they cost around £10 of amazon in the UK. Buy a wooden one not a steel one. Steel is cold and causes the dough to be more likely to stick whereas wood is warmer and pizza and bread is less likely to stick. A steel peel is better for removing the bread or pizza once it has cooked. Coat it with flour ensure the loaf is moving around by shaking it and then shake it off onto your very hot stone.
You'd also benefit from final shaping using the technique I mentioned earlier ie increasing top surface tension by balling the underneath into the middle. Look for a youtube on shaping pizza balls. So make a big pizza ball ... long in you like and cut the surface to release the surface tension and allow it to bloom. Also some more surface cuts, is stagger them inot a sort of zig zag. The bread is saying to me that it wanted to open more.
Have you yet become convinced at how a disproportionate amount of extra depth of flavour and character is given by using the starter? And how wonderful can such a cheap pastime be. Real men bake real bread!
I really like the inside of that loaf.
The whole point of the stone is that you must heat it for a long time. So you're not heating the oven, until the light goes out but heating the stone for as long as you can say 40 minutes to an hour after the oven has reached maximum heat. the stone draws moisture out of the base of the bread and caramelises the surface and crisps it. Also, use semolina in place of flour for the base of the bread if you can. That adds crispness. if you look at the bagels up thread there is a picture of a base of one . Because bagels are boiled they are wet and so I use semolina to absorb some of the water and add crispness.
Foil cooks bread in its own steam. It is pointless putting foil onto the stone. The stone won't be adding any value. So make yourself a peel or buy one they cost around £10 of amazon in the UK. Buy a wooden one not a steel one. Steel is cold and causes the dough to be more likely to stick whereas wood is warmer and pizza and bread is less likely to stick. A steel peel is better for removing the bread or pizza once it has cooked. Coat it with flour ensure the loaf is moving around by shaking it and then shake it off onto your very hot stone.
You'd also benefit from final shaping using the technique I mentioned earlier ie increasing top surface tension by balling the underneath into the middle. Look for a youtube on shaping pizza balls. So make a big pizza ball ... long in you like and cut the surface to release the surface tension and allow it to bloom. Also some more surface cuts, is stagger them inot a sort of zig zag. The bread is saying to me that it wanted to open more.
Have you yet become convinced at how a disproportionate amount of extra depth of flavour and character is given by using the starter? And how wonderful can such a cheap pastime be. Real men bake real bread!
I really like the inside of that loaf.
I'll get a peel next. Just one more question, if you don't mind...The bread was actually quite tasteless. The texture is spot-on, but it just doesn't taste like anything. Does this mean I need to use more salt when mixing flours with the poolish? I didn't measure it but used about a pinch of plain sea salt. OK, two questions: how do you use semolina for just the bottom? You mean you sprinkle it on the peel and put the shaped dough onit before sliding into the oven?
I will look on Youtube for pizza dough shaping. It would be nice not to have bread that looks like an alien.
My fiance thinks I'm crazy for baking my own bread...well, not crazy but certainly eccentric.
Jan 25, 2015, 8:53 am
#93
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No need to apologise .. I'll help as much as I can.
Yes, you didn't use enough salt because you didn't follow my suggestion but just guessed it. You can actually tell because of the wonderful open texture. Salt kills yeast. So no where near the poolish and experiement with quantities. A pinch of salt isn't 1gm let alone 7 gms or so, so wheigh it. When you put it in your mix you must keep it away from the yeast and the poolish before you mix. As salt retards rise you will need to allow it to take longer to rise and the longer time also adds flavour., If you don't weigh and keep a record of what you did you will forget and not improve your bread by experience.
Yes, the semolina isn't in the dough it is a sort of cheats way of getting the crispiness you'd get in a really hot oven but in a domestic oven. So on it's final shape you rest it on the semolina and also put some on your peel. instead of hard flour.
Yes, you didn't use enough salt because you didn't follow my suggestion but just guessed it. You can actually tell because of the wonderful open texture. Salt kills yeast. So no where near the poolish and experiement with quantities. A pinch of salt isn't 1gm let alone 7 gms or so, so wheigh it. When you put it in your mix you must keep it away from the yeast and the poolish before you mix. As salt retards rise you will need to allow it to take longer to rise and the longer time also adds flavour., If you don't weigh and keep a record of what you did you will forget and not improve your bread by experience.
Yes, the semolina isn't in the dough it is a sort of cheats way of getting the crispiness you'd get in a really hot oven but in a domestic oven. So on it's final shape you rest it on the semolina and also put some on your peel. instead of hard flour.
Jan 25, 2015, 2:37 pm
#94
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No need to apologise .. I'll help as much as I can.
Yes, you didn't use enough salt because you didn't follow my suggestion but just guessed it. You can actually tell because of the wonderful open texture. Salt kills yeast. So no where near the poolish and experiement with quantities. A pinch of salt isn't 1gm let alone 7 gms or so, so wheigh it. When you put it in your mix you must keep it away from the yeast and the poolish before you mix. As salt retards rise you will need to allow it to take longer to rise and the longer time also adds flavour., If you don't weigh and keep a record of what you did you will forget and not improve your bread by experience.
Yes, the semolina isn't in the dough it is a sort of cheats way of getting the crispiness you'd get in a really hot oven but in a domestic oven. So on it's final shape you rest it on the semolina and also put some on your peel. instead of hard flour.
Yes, you didn't use enough salt because you didn't follow my suggestion but just guessed it. You can actually tell because of the wonderful open texture. Salt kills yeast. So no where near the poolish and experiement with quantities. A pinch of salt isn't 1gm let alone 7 gms or so, so wheigh it. When you put it in your mix you must keep it away from the yeast and the poolish before you mix. As salt retards rise you will need to allow it to take longer to rise and the longer time also adds flavour., If you don't weigh and keep a record of what you did you will forget and not improve your bread by experience.
Yes, the semolina isn't in the dough it is a sort of cheats way of getting the crispiness you'd get in a really hot oven but in a domestic oven. So on it's final shape you rest it on the semolina and also put some on your peel. instead of hard flour.
For the record, it was:poolish: 100g each flour and water, and 4g yeast
remainder: 180g all purpose flour, 70g whole wheat flour, 140ml water, another 4g yeast, pinch salt
I made another poolish just now but on second thought will wait until my peel comes on Wednesday. Can I just stick the poolish in the fridge until then?
Jan 25, 2015, 3:09 pm
#95
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All right, cool, thanks! I did measure everything out...except the salt. For the record, it was:
poolish: 100g each flour and water, and 4g yeast
remainder: 180g all purpose flour, 70g whole wheat flour, 140ml water, another 4g yeast, pinch salt
I made another poolish just now but on second thought will wait until my peel comes on Wednesday. Can I just stick the poolish in the fridge until then?
For the record, it was:poolish: 100g each flour and water, and 4g yeast
remainder: 180g all purpose flour, 70g whole wheat flour, 140ml water, another 4g yeast, pinch salt
I made another poolish just now but on second thought will wait until my peel comes on Wednesday. Can I just stick the poolish in the fridge until then?
Jan 28, 2015, 7:36 pm
#96
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Jan 28, 2015, 9:13 pm
#97
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You can leave it in the fridge for as long as you want. It lies in a sleepy state and improves flavour until you use it. I leave completed pizza dough balls - I make six at a time made with poolish and leave them in there for a week or two. The temperature hibernates it and bringing it out wakes it up. This is why poolish is such a great alternative to sour starter. Use it straight from the fridge and mix it with the rest of the ingredients and let it rise.
Jan 31, 2015, 9:25 pm
#98
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I made my third loaf today. AMAZING. It has a nice golden brown color. It has a nice toothsome texture. It has FLAVOR. GIVE ME MORE.
Now I just need to make the loaf in a good shape, and I'll be all set.
Thanks, uk1!
Now I just need to make the loaf in a good shape, and I'll be all set.
Thanks, uk1!
Jan 31, 2015, 9:57 pm
#99
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I think this has shown you what you can do. It's a starting point. Once you forget about bread making as being a mechanical process like programming but a more living process with infinite variables then I think you'll find it more of a form of expression and art rather than just a science. If you continue to concentrate on the principles and forget about recipes you will then be able to make any loaf you would ever want by simply thinking and feeling your way through.
Feb 1, 2015, 9:45 am
#100
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No problems .... I am so delighted you've had your first one that has really given you pleasure .... you obviously scoffed it and forgot to take the picky.
I think this has shown you what you can do. It's a starting point. Once you forget about bread making as being a mechanical process like programming but a more living process with infinite variables then I think you'll find it more of a form of expression and art rather than just a science. If you continue to concentrate on the principles and forget about recipes you will then be able to make any loaf you would ever want by simply thinking and feeling your way through.
I think this has shown you what you can do. It's a starting point. Once you forget about bread making as being a mechanical process like programming but a more living process with infinite variables then I think you'll find it more of a form of expression and art rather than just a science. If you continue to concentrate on the principles and forget about recipes you will then be able to make any loaf you would ever want by simply thinking and feeling your way through.
I wonder if maybe my dough is too wet. I am adding more water than you'd initially suggested. But I think the real test of that is whether I can shape the loaf and have it keep its shape. Right?
Last edited by gfunkdave; Feb 1, 2015 at 10:39 am
Feb 1, 2015, 4:56 pm
#101
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To over simplify more water is nearly always better, so long as you can handle it.
The loaf looks lovely, but the texture seems a touch too close. It might be because you added too much salt, which retards or kills yeast growth, or you could have let it have more prove before the bake, or that you could have done a few more envelope folds ... or it is a predominantly wholemeal mix which always has a closer texture ....... or a combination of all.
Excellent loaf though. The judge of how good it is is the taste and you said it was good!
Feb 1, 2015, 8:20 pm
#102
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Exactly,
To over simplify more water is nearly always better, so long as you can handle it.
The loaf looks lovely, but the texture seems a touch too close. It might be because you added too much salt, which retards or kills yeast growth, or you could have let it have more prove before the bake, or that you could have done a few more envelope folds ... or it is a predominantly wholemeal mix which always has a closer texture ....... or a combination of all.
Excellent loaf though. The judge of how good it is is the taste and you said it was good!
To over simplify more water is nearly always better, so long as you can handle it.
The loaf looks lovely, but the texture seems a touch too close. It might be because you added too much salt, which retards or kills yeast growth, or you could have let it have more prove before the bake, or that you could have done a few more envelope folds ... or it is a predominantly wholemeal mix which always has a closer texture ....... or a combination of all.
Excellent loaf though. The judge of how good it is is the taste and you said it was good!
I let it rise twice - both times about 90 mins, until it had more or less doubled in size. Next time I'll let it do the second rise on the peel, I think. Does that work? Let it rise once, then shape it on the peel and let it rise in place again, then slide into the oven? Do you usually do the second rise on the peel or in a bowl (which is what I've been doing)?
Incidentally, I used wheat bran on the bottom to make it slide off the peel. It mostly worked, but the bran singed when it touched the pizza stone...resulting in an acrid smell but a lovely nutty flavor on the bottom crust. I've bought a bag of white cornmeal for future attempts.
Feb 1, 2015, 9:13 pm
#103
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Thanks. Yes, I may have used a touch more salt than I needed...I think it was about 9g. I'll do 6 next time. It does have a very slightly salty taste, so perhaps that's it. You're right that the crumb is just a little too close. It's not gummy - there are some nice holes - but the texture is a bit too much like cake and not enough like bread. I used your standard mix of adding to the poolish 180g white flour and 70g whole wheat (I don't have any rye).
I let it rise twice - both times about 90 mins, until it had more or less doubled in size. Next time I'll let it do the second rise on the peel, I think. Does that work? Let it rise once, then shape it on the peel and let it rise in place again, then slide into the oven? Do you usually do the second rise on the peel or in a bowl (which is what I've been doing)?
Incidentally, I used wheat bran on the bottom to make it slide off the peel. It mostly worked, but the bran singed when it touched the pizza stone...resulting in an acrid smell but a lovely nutty flavor on the bottom crust. I've bought a bag of white cornmeal for future attempts.
I let it rise twice - both times about 90 mins, until it had more or less doubled in size. Next time I'll let it do the second rise on the peel, I think. Does that work? Let it rise once, then shape it on the peel and let it rise in place again, then slide into the oven? Do you usually do the second rise on the peel or in a bowl (which is what I've been doing)?
Incidentally, I used wheat bran on the bottom to make it slide off the peel. It mostly worked, but the bran singed when it touched the pizza stone...resulting in an acrid smell but a lovely nutty flavor on the bottom crust. I've bought a bag of white cornmeal for future attempts.
Feb 7, 2015, 1:50 pm
#104
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I have a loaf proving on the peel (I dusted the peel with some cornmeal). I worry that it's not holding a shape - just seems to be spreading out. Does this mean I didn't envelope folds enough to develop gluten and surface tension?
This is starting to become frustrating! Maybe I should take a class...all the Youtube videos I see are using much drier doughs, which makes shaping easier. But I like the product of a wet dough...
This is starting to become frustrating! Maybe I should take a class...all the Youtube videos I see are using much drier doughs, which makes shaping easier. But I like the product of a wet dough...
Feb 7, 2015, 2:22 pm
#105
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I have a loaf proving on the peel (I dusted the peel with some cornmeal). I worry that it's not holding a shape - just seems to be spreading out. Does this mean I didn't envelope folds enough to develop gluten and surface tension?
This is starting to become frustrating! Maybe I should take a class...all the Youtube videos I see are using much drier doughs, which makes shaping easier. But I like the product of a wet dough...
This is starting to become frustrating! Maybe I should take a class...all the Youtube videos I see are using much drier doughs, which makes shaping easier. But I like the product of a wet dough...
next loaf .... make it drier by a few percent. Do a longer initial mix and more folds. Experiment.