N830MH

Saudi Arabia is expecting to join the SkyTeam will goes on effective May 29, 2012 but, there is no official release from SkyTeam. I thought DL doesn't want to see SV to joining the SkyTeam. I wasn't aware of it.

Please stay out of politics & religious. Thank you for the cooperation. Please no politics & religious in the forum.

RealHJ

Why not? Than more than merrier. Everyone benefits. As long as the airline is safe, is certified to fly into EU (that is a good measure of its safety record), then any addition is welcome to ST: gives more route options, more redeeming options, more earning options, and everyone benefits.

KissFlyGoodbye

Frequent flier benefits between SV and DL won't solidify. No codesharing basically, according from this year old article: http://www.tnooz.com/2011/06/24/news...am-membership/

RealHJ

Wow, now that should not be allowed by SkyTeam - such a discriminatory measure by Delta towards passengers of a SkyTeam airline. There should be heavy penalties for every day that Delta does this, and a class action lawsuit given Delta's unjustified discriminatory policies may very well happen then if this comes to pass. (Which I am quite sure it won't, as DL must know the hot water it'll get into if it really discriminates another ST airline passengers like this, esp. it seeming that they are discriminated against based on their destination/origin and possibly nationality and/or religion.)

nfg05

No codesharing, no FF benefits, what's the benefit for customers?

ashill

[Can't completely avoid politics and religion here, as it is tied into Delta's frequent flyer program policies in this case, but I'll do my best.]

Well, Delta said they won't offer any benefits to Saudi Arabian elites in response to a rather large (though quite misinformed) kerfuffle last year about Saudi Arabian's alleged discrimination against Jews; namely, they won't fly anyone to Saudi Arabia who doesn't have a valid visa to Saudi Arabia, including denying anyone who Saudi Arabia has denied a visa because (s)he is Jewish or has been to Israel. Certainly, if Saudia Arabia (the country, not the airline) denied a visa for that reason (which I won't comment on as I know little about this), that's discriminatory, but it's the reality. Saudi Arabian shouldn't be expected to fly those passengers anyway, but misinformed media and protestors apparently expect them to, and blame Delta for Saudi Arabian not doing so.

The reality is that Delta's easy choices are 1) piss off a large number of American Jews and others who are touchy about any perceived anti-Semitism anywhere (though, again, misinformed in this case) by allying themselves with Saudi Arabian Airlines or 2) wash their hands of Saudi Arabian Airlines to the extent they possibly can.

Given Delta's market position, I'm not sure I can blame them for choosing option 2, much as option 1 is (on the facts) the correct choice.

DL2SXM

If thats the case then they won't be a true partner of skyteam.

RealHJ

No, they will be, just Delta won't be a full SkyTeam member anymore.

If DL decides to pull this dirty trick, then DL should become an "associate / partial member" of SkyTeam or something like that, if it only aligns the FF earning/redeeming with some, but not all, ST airlines.

Blaming an airline for a country's visa policy (even when it may be a state owned one - not sure if so is the case here, but I guess it may be) is just hare-brained. Airlines have very stiff penalties if their passenger is not allowed into the transiting or destination country, so they have to abide by its policies and have to prevent customers without the proper documentation and/or authorization to board, or else face stiff penalties (and be ultimately put out of business). E.g. in Zimbabwe, arriving aircraft now have to wait and can not leave until every last passenger from it has entered the country (been issued a visa), so that if anyone is refused entry, they are there to take them back.

MSPeconomist

The USA media made such a fuss criticizing DL last year about the "no visa" issue, but I don't recall much ever being said about AF or KLM being potentially in the same situation. No airline can ignore or overlook visa requirements for its passengers; otherwise they risk huge fines and potentially other penalties.

Personally, I'm more offended that women business travelers to Saudia Arabia must have the permission (signature on the visa application) of their husbands or other male relatives (such as much younger brothers) to travel and that they then cannot drive, must be covered up, must be accompanied by male relatives or other women in public, etc. during their trip. There are also some international child custody issues. I don't even like the idea of a dry airline imposing its (religious) views on international passengers.

Nevertheless, SkyTeam is a for-profit airline alliance, not a political vetting board or means of making political statements or getting publicity for certain causes.

RealHJ

Exactly. And every country has some issues. Some [a lot more] than others. E.g. according to "The Economist" (I think about a month to two ago issue), Japan is notorious for being very bad on int'l child custody cases (an issue you mentioned for SA), but that doesn't mean that DL doesn't fly to Japan, for example. Airlines are simply enforcing each transit and destination country's visa regime; if one is not happy with it, then the issue should be taken up with its politicians, without mixing airlines in it that have nothing to do with making those decisions.

pleasantsn

Perhaps this news is better fitted for the SkyTeam forum, so it doesn't turn into a DL-bashing.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/skyteam-412/

mtkeller

It will be interesting to see how things actually develop once SV joins. The relevant bit that deserves some parsing (and contains some of DL's usual poor wording) is:

Let's take the first sentence. While DL may not codeshare on flights to KSA, they definitely do codeshare with carriers that fly to KSA. AF operates CDG-RUH and CDG-JED, KL operates AMS-DMM, AZ will begin flying FCO-RUH this summer, CZ flies PEK-JED, and KQ flies NBO-JED. These are all carriers with which DL has codeshare agreements for other routes. Alright, we'll give DL the benefit of the doubt and assume they meant that they don't/won't put DL flight numbers on any of those flights, since they're generally bad at wording precise statements anyway.

Now let's move on to the second sentence. DL says they won't put their code on any SV flights and won't let SV put their flight numbers on any DL flights. I'm skeptical, since I imagine that SV will be eager to expand their network in the US via codesharing with the only SkyTeam carrier in North America. Who wants to bet that we'll see SV flight numbers on DL-operated flights out of JFK that connect with the SV flights to/from JED and RUH within six months of SV joining SkyTeam? I don't know that SV will switch any of its US service to ATL (or add new flights to the US) any time soon, but it's definitely not inconceivable. I don't expect to see a press release announcing SV-coded, DL-operated flights, but I think it will happen rather quietly. On the other hand, I expect that DL will probably wait a good long while before they even think about putting a DL number on an SV-operated flight.

The next part of that sentence is the really interesting one, in that it suggests that DL will basically pretend that SV is not in SkyTeam and that the bosses in AMS have authorized this. Again, I find that hard to believe. It's possible that they'll refuse to let SkyMiles members earn miles on SV-operated flights, but are we really going to have another footnote in the earnings table for flights to/from KSA like for HAV when it's not a federal government issue that blocks things? Is SkyTeam really going to let DL exclude SV elites from SkyClubs when flying SkyTeam international itineraries? Not likely, and if so, I would guess we'll all be blocked from the Alfursan lounges if flying in Y in retaliation. How will DL feel about an SV elite using the LHR T4 SkyTeam lounge when flying LHR-ATL with DL? Furthermore, DL elites who travel to KSA will likely want to be able to use the lounges there (sad as they are…the "flagship lounge" in RUH is tiny and cramped) and will wonder what on earth is up with DL causing problems.

No, I think that the only part likely to play out is less codesharing than with other ST members. DL might be the one ST member not to put out a "Welcome to ST!" press release when SV officially joins, just to keep the kerfuffle from last summer from rearing its head again, but I think they'll wind up treating SV the same way they treat any other ST member in terms of FF benefits.

MarLim

I fully agree that company policy and foreign policy should not be mixed up. How would you explain that DL credits skymiles to all AF flights except CDG-HAV? This is a completly legal flight under French rules, but no so from a US perspective. Should we keep DL responsible for not crediting miles for this flight? I don't think so, airlines (like all other companies) have to adhere to their country's rules if we like it or not.

DL2SXM

Thats some rant. How did you get that out of what I said?

motytrah

From a practical purpose I don't see much value in SV joining the team. The Saudi airports they hub from are all either served by AF or KL. You have the exclusionary rules for Jews and past visitors to Israel as well as women traveling without a male relative (even for the purposes of transit).

I would point out that the Netherlands (Hey, that's where KL is) has huge investments in the Kingdom and Rotterdam is the European hub for Saudi oil. Back when SkyTeam had NW and CO in it they could team up with DL to vote down goofy things like this. DL being that only US based airline in the alliance is starting to show.