While I too can find returns of 3 or 3+CPMs even on domestic trips (i.e. something which is more difficult now than it was in early 2008 or 2007 when air travel demand was stronger than it is today)...
Prices are influenced by supply *and* demand. While demand is lower now, capacity has been reduced, and supply is also lower. I'm not disputing your assertion; I'm just clarifying that it isn't purely a matter of demand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GUWonder
...I am not interested in entertaining any more of your cherry-picked hypothetical or other cherry-picked claims meant to try to justify whatever DL management were to do. Given your post's prior espousal of a philosophy that would try to justify whatever abuse was landed upon a victim of (corporate) abuse, there's no use in going any deeper into the psychology of such attempted justifications of whatever DL management would do to the customers of DL management's self-proclaimed "world's best loyalty program".
Of course you aren't, as I made it quite clear that I wasn't cherry-picking (in this latest case, I even used the same route), and you've made it quite clear that you can't find a better price for a *par* itinerary.
"Corporate abuse" is a concept entertained only by those who believe that corporations exist to satisfy their feelings of entitlement. In reality, corporations should be free to do what is in the best interest of their shareholders, and this should be their *only* obligation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GUWonder
If this were my problem, I would've done ATL-IAD-ATL for $221 roundtrip including the cost of a throwaway hotel portion. Whether a non-stop or connecting flight would be selected on such a trip would've depended on whether I cared to accumulate miles from United, Airtran and/or Delta flights or was interested in something else from the ticket(s).
Again, I ask you bluntly to clarify: You are saying that you can obtain a nonstop flight, THIS (Nov 27, 29) Friday and Sunday evenings, from ATL>IAD>ATL for $221, without additional obligations, hassle, or risks? Of course you can't. It's easy for you to continue to claim that the CPM is low when the price you cite simply isn't available.
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Prices are influenced by supply *and* demand. While demand is lower now, capacity has been reduced, and supply is also lower. I'm not disputing your assertion; I'm just clarifying that it isn't purely a matter of demand.
Of course you aren't, as I made it quite clear that I wasn't cherry-picking (in this latest case, I even used the same route), and you've made it quite clear that you can't find a better price for a *par* itinerary.
"Corporate abuse" is a concept entertained only by those who believe that corporations exist to satisfy their feelings of entitlement. In reality, corporations should be free to do what is in the best interest of their shareholders, and this should be their *only* obligation.
Again, I ask you bluntly to clarify: You are saying that you can obtain a nonstop flight, THIS (Nov 27, 29) Friday and Sunday evenings, from ATL>IAD>ATL for $221, without additional obligations, hassle, or risks? Of course you can't. It's easy for you to continue to claim that the CPM is low when the price you cite simply isn't available.
I said what I meant already. Amongst other things, I said I could obtain a nonstop roundtrip in coach for the dates that met your initial request related to the ATL-IAD-ATL trip mentioned by you and that it was pricing out at $221 for me all-in -- airfare+hotel -- and there's no downside for me in no-showing at the included throwaway hotel. Do you understand the meaning of past tense? IF so, you wouldn't have to continue asking pointless questions when the answers are already provided above in my posts and I've said the following:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GUWonder
While I too can find returns of 3 or 3+CPMs even on domestic trips (i.e. something which is more difficult now than it was in early 2008 or 2007 when air travel demand was stronger than it is today), I am not interested in entertaining any more of your cherry-picked hypothetical or other cherry-picked claims meant to try to justify whatever DL management were to do. Given your post's prior espousal of a philosophy that would try to justify whatever abuse was landed upon a victim of (corporate) abuse, there's no use in going any deeper into the psychology of such attempted justifications of whatever DL management would do to the customers of DL management's self-proclaimed "world's best loyalty program". Some people can and will try to justify just about anything or even everything when done by a self-designated favorite. There is no use in wasting time trying to help such people not interested in help; and so I wouldn't waste my time on such barking up the wrong tree repeatedly (as in your unnecessary "even paying and then cancelling" hotel reference which is also not even applicable to what I posted).
Is it that hard to understand something said already and said repeatedly? It shouldn't be.
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I decided to re-read this entire long thread. It seems there is only one person that defends DL awards, and with disbelief domestic awards.
It seems several of the old die-hard DL people pitch in here to state their unhappiness, even some stating they are starting to look elsewhere.
I for one think it is really unfair that international awards, using DL, are so tough to get. I looked for numerous cities to Europe, for several months, from MKE or ORD and NO standard awards were available for JUNE, JULY, or AUGUST. Sure we can look at going over water with AF or KLM, and get lucky, but we are supporters of DL, not those airlines.
Like I stated there is one person that uses his awards for domestic, but if that is what I was thinking I would fly WN. I do not even totally agree with the poster on domestic; he may be correct, but in my case standard are available when tickets are cheap, if the price is a little high, and I mean over $350 standard awards are not there.
I understand DL is hustling to make more money but if less and less people catch on and give their business to other airlines it will not matter how many awards they are willing to give out.
However, based on my recent attempts to book awards under the 3-tier system, I'm increasingly convinced that the bean counters are intent upon pushing the value of miles as close to 1 cpm as possible.
And this is what should scare all of us about our FFP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thepla
I for one think it is really unfair that international awards, using DL, are so tough to get. I looked for numerous cities to Europe, for several months, from MKE or ORD and NO standard awards were available for JUNE, JULY, or AUGUST. Sure we can look at going over water with AF or KLM, and get lucky, but we are supporters of DL, not those airlines.
Agreed. The issue shouldn't be how great domestic awards at whatever CPM is, it should be the comparison to AA/CO/UA on the international BE tickets. To be honest, I'm quite surprised (and maybe I shouldn't be) that NO ONE at DL has really addressed this issue - not even to say if it is the engine broken or intentional gouging (my guess the latter).
The issue shouldn't be how great domestic awards at whatever CPM is, it should be the comparison to AA/CO/UA on the international BE tickets.
As far more miles are redeemed for domestic travel than for international travel, why should international necessarily be the focus? What if Delta is taking a purposeful business decision to focus on the more popular type of redemption (either temporarily, until making additional IT investments next year, or maybe permanently)?
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As far more miles are redeemed for domestic travel than for international travel, why should international necessarily be the focus? What if Delta is taking a purposeful business decision to focus on the more popular type of redemption (either temporarily, until making additional IT investments next year, or maybe permanently)?
You want to chat about domestic?
Today, searching for domestic award in Dec MSP-MFR RT. Here are a bunch of reasons why I HATE the DL award system:
1. Guess what, calendar search on dates early Dec show low availability. But when I make actual selections it only sometimes show low availability. Other of the "low calendar options" only allow medium when booking. BROKEN CALENDAR.
2. Maybe if I login as a PM I can get better availability. Login, and the award calendar goes to all medium and high. To my OP in this thread, thanks DL. FLEECING YOUR BEST ELITES OR BROKEN AWARD SYSTEM.
3. Select a few medium dates on the calendar, and NO OPTIONS AT MEDIUM, ALL AT HIGH.
Please tell me this is how you treat a best customers!!!
And one more rant. Why is it that for MANY itineraries I can price and book for paid tix on NWA.com, but when I search the same itinerary for award I get an error message "No available flights were found for the dates selected" or it directs me to DL.DUMB. This has only happened since Oct 1.
DL can you PLEASE FIX THIS!!!??? And bring back nwa.jp too.
As far more miles are redeemed for domestic travel than for international travel, why should international necessarily be the focus? What if Delta is taking a purposeful business decision to focus on the more popular type of redemption (either temporarily, until making additional IT investments next year, or maybe permanently)?
1. Because international premium cabin tickets is the measuring stick of a "good" frequent flyer program. Those tickets cost thousands of dollars while domestics on Delta metal cost Delta very little.
2. It will never be fixed, because its broken on purpose. Of course Delta is focusing on domestic redemptions, because the international ones, especially on partners, cost Delta more, duh.
3. There sure will be IT investments, an investment to further make award search frustrating and to fleece people of their miles, making them believe that "medium" and "high" is just the way it is.
Today, searching for domestic award in Dec MSP-MFR RT. Here are a bunch of reasons why I HATE the DL award system:
1. Guess what, calendar search on dates early Dec show low availability. But when I make actual selections it only sometimes show low availability. Other of the "low calendar options" only allow medium when booking. BROKEN CALENDAR.
2. Maybe if I login as a PM I can get better availability. Login, and the award calendar goes to all medium and high. To my OP in this thread, thanks DL. FLEECING YOUR BEST ELITES OR BROKEN AWARD SYSTEM.
3. Select a few medium dates on the calendar, and NO OPTIONS AT MEDIUM, ALL AT HIGH.
Please tell me this is how you treat a best customers!!!
And one more rant. Why is it that for MANY itineraries I can price and book for paid tix on NWA.com, but when I search the same itinerary for award I get an error message "No available flights were found for the dates selected" or it directs me to DL.DUMB. This has only happened since Oct 1.
DL can you PLEASE FIX THIS!!!??? And bring back nwa.jp too.
I don't even know where to begin to share my frustrations on trying to redeem a F award SFO-DTW and back.
Some non stops priced out at some ridiculous level - 40K miles EACH WAY
I could see some non stops at 62K r/t but when I went to book I'd get the messsage "this flight just sold out"
So I went to nwa.com and they are even worse....
Finally ended booking via MSP for a reasonable amount but not with the times I really would have liked.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdix
I don't even know where to begin to share my frustrations on trying to redeem a F award SFO-DTW and back.
Some non stops priced out at some ridiculous level - 40K miles EACH WAY
I could see some non stops at 62K r/t but when I went to book I'd get the messsage "this flight just sold out"
So I went to nwa.com and they are even worse....
Finally ended booking via MSP for a reasonable amount but not with the times I really would have liked.
I thought the point of the three tier system would be seats no matter what, yes they cost more but you could get them. Not sure how it can be sold out.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by troyintn
I thought the point of the three tier system would be seats no matter what, yes they cost more but you could get them. Not sure how it can be sold out.
Yeaahh... if you believe the management doublespeak about the purpose of the three-tier calendar.
But, take a look at all the other systemic dysfunctionality. DL is not that incompetent that they couldn't fix it if they wanted to. And the signs...such as the commentary by SMInsider on the sticky...quick to respond to certain rumors, yet totally deaf and nonresponsive to the absolute avalanche of criticism of DL's award booking structure and online system.
Face the reality here. The real point is to reduce your ability to redeem for seats. By any means possible. Or, if not, to compel you to pay...altogether now...
I thought the point of the three tier system would be seats no matter what, yes they cost more but you could get them. Not sure how it can be sold out.
Well this is just another example of how the DL award system is broken. sdix's issues are just some of what I have experienced.
There is no use in wasting time trying to help such people not interested in help; and so I wouldn't waste my time on such barking up the wrong tree repeatedly (as in your unnecessary "even paying and then cancelling" hotel reference which is also not even applicable to what I posted). 
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