Denied F on Purchased Tix (Oversold), Offered Only $100 Delta Dollars
#16
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: LAX/TPE
Programs: United 1K, JAL Sapphire, SPG Lifetime Platinum, National Executive Elite, Hertz PC, Avis PC
Posts: 41,935
I think you were double-screwed and deserve a refund of the difference between the lowest coach fare available at the time of your original booking and what you paid - along with a courtesy voucher of DL$ and a r/t domestic upgrade cert. This is not an everyday simple complaint and DL should make things right for someone who is obviously willing to pay premium fares.
They should not have offered you 'an equivalent seat with coach service', but rather ensured you had a crew rest seat and received full FC service along with some courtesy compensation since you were a premium fare customer involuntarily moved to a less desirable and comfortable seat. I have to disagree with John C's analysis of "A" fares - these are premium fares and are substantially higher than 90% of the regular pax paid in the back for their ticket. The FA was wrong, and you should have escalated the issue to have the coach passenger removed from you seat - don't be afraid to challenge staff when they are clearly wrong and feel free request the matter be escalated on the spot. Once you accept the involuntary move requested by the FA, you have boxed yourself into a corner - the same reason you should never, ever, get up out of your seat if another passenger insists you are sitting in their seat (assuming you are sitting in the correct seat) until a FA has intervened and clarified the situation.
I am abit confused as to how a coach passenger can simply walk up and 'claim' one of these crew rest seats at the last minute even if the seat was not assigned to them - if no one is assigned to the seat (any non-upgraded Elite should automatically be moved to them anyway), it should remain empty for the flight.
Consumer service was wrong - even if you actually got to sit in the crew rest seat, you did not get 'upgraded service', since the gate agent was only offering coach service...so you were effectively in coach at that point, regardless of the seat. Just because you paid "discounted" first class does not entitle DL to treat you as a disposable customer. You did not get what you paid for.
I agree with the others - the air marshall stole your seat. The way to handle this in the future is always check in online at the 24 mark and print out your boarding card - I think it's less likely the seat would have been stolen at that point, making their effort to remove you abit more difficult since you would have a boarding pass in hand with your FC seat assignment which you could use to raise a stink seat-side and try to 'accidentally' out the marshall so he/she considers leaving the flight and you get your FC seat back.
They should not have offered you 'an equivalent seat with coach service', but rather ensured you had a crew rest seat and received full FC service along with some courtesy compensation since you were a premium fare customer involuntarily moved to a less desirable and comfortable seat. I have to disagree with John C's analysis of "A" fares - these are premium fares and are substantially higher than 90% of the regular pax paid in the back for their ticket. The FA was wrong, and you should have escalated the issue to have the coach passenger removed from you seat - don't be afraid to challenge staff when they are clearly wrong and feel free request the matter be escalated on the spot. Once you accept the involuntary move requested by the FA, you have boxed yourself into a corner - the same reason you should never, ever, get up out of your seat if another passenger insists you are sitting in their seat (assuming you are sitting in the correct seat) until a FA has intervened and clarified the situation.
I am abit confused as to how a coach passenger can simply walk up and 'claim' one of these crew rest seats at the last minute even if the seat was not assigned to them - if no one is assigned to the seat (any non-upgraded Elite should automatically be moved to them anyway), it should remain empty for the flight.
Consumer service was wrong - even if you actually got to sit in the crew rest seat, you did not get 'upgraded service', since the gate agent was only offering coach service...so you were effectively in coach at that point, regardless of the seat. Just because you paid "discounted" first class does not entitle DL to treat you as a disposable customer. You did not get what you paid for.
I agree with the others - the air marshall stole your seat. The way to handle this in the future is always check in online at the 24 mark and print out your boarding card - I think it's less likely the seat would have been stolen at that point, making their effort to remove you abit more difficult since you would have a boarding pass in hand with your FC seat assignment which you could use to raise a stink seat-side and try to 'accidentally' out the marshall so he/she considers leaving the flight and you get your FC seat back.
#17
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah, DL DM since inception, 3+ MM, HH Gold, SPG-Gold
Programs: DL, UA, AA, HH, SPG, HH, Hertz, Avis
Posts: 1,835
Best I can tell, when you ask for "first class" during the on-line booking, it will bring up an "A" fare if one is available. I do not know of any way to bring up a true "F" fare?. That said, it means that with the new changes, you now have to pay a fee to call Delta and make sure your seat is a true "F"? If there really is such a difference between "A" and "F" the web-site should allow to search for "Discounted FC" and a separate "Unrestricted FC" (and while they are at it, include a "Anytime" in the time slot search!!).
If you do what they want you to do: buy a ticket on their web-site and the only FC fare you can get is "A", well, then that "A" is the FC fare and should be dealt with accordingly during irreg. ops. or overbooking such as what happened the OP.
A long time ago when I lived in Seattle, I was a United Premier Exec. and often took a Lufthansa flight out of Vancouver when going to Frankfurt, which was codeshared with Canadian (on paid BC). On a couple of occaisions there was total chaos, both in Frankfurt and Vancouver with overbooking in business and I was told on two occaisions that I had ben downgraded. I pulled what turned out to be a very effective stunt: I said I had a leg injury that would make me unable to sit in coach and that they would have to put me up in a hotel until they had a BC seat and while having nothing to do there would think up letters and complaints about being downgraded and made unable to fly with them because of a disability as well as missing important meetings etc. etc. On two out of two occaisions, lo-and-behold, they found a BC seat for me on the overbooked flight!! My motto: whatever works!!
If you do what they want you to do: buy a ticket on their web-site and the only FC fare you can get is "A", well, then that "A" is the FC fare and should be dealt with accordingly during irreg. ops. or overbooking such as what happened the OP.
A long time ago when I lived in Seattle, I was a United Premier Exec. and often took a Lufthansa flight out of Vancouver when going to Frankfurt, which was codeshared with Canadian (on paid BC). On a couple of occaisions there was total chaos, both in Frankfurt and Vancouver with overbooking in business and I was told on two occaisions that I had ben downgraded. I pulled what turned out to be a very effective stunt: I said I had a leg injury that would make me unable to sit in coach and that they would have to put me up in a hotel until they had a BC seat and while having nothing to do there would think up letters and complaints about being downgraded and made unable to fly with them because of a disability as well as missing important meetings etc. etc. On two out of two occaisions, lo-and-behold, they found a BC seat for me on the overbooked flight!! My motto: whatever works!!
Last edited by Flying_Duck; Jan 5, 2005 at 10:10 am
#18
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: GSP (Greenville, SC)
Programs: DL Gold Medallion; UA Premier Executive; WN sub-CP; AA sub-Gold
Posts: 13,393
What you should have done at the gate was to demand a full refund owing to their refusal to solicit volunteers to be bumped.
Once you got on the plane with a coach seat assignment (no matter how nice the coach seat is), you gave away a significant amount of leverage. Once you allowed another passenger to take your seat and settled for a a regular coach seat, what little leverage you had disappeared.
Once you got on the plane with a coach seat assignment (no matter how nice the coach seat is), you gave away a significant amount of leverage. Once you allowed another passenger to take your seat and settled for a a regular coach seat, what little leverage you had disappeared.
#19
Join Date: Jun 2004
Programs: No More Loyalty
Posts: 608
Originally Posted by Canarsie
Every A fare I have ever purchased has been fully changeable and fully refundable.
#20
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2000
Programs: DL FO, Marriott Gold, SPG Gold
Posts: 12,003
Originally Posted by JS
What you should have done at the gate was to demand a full refund owing to their refusal to solicit volunteers to be bumped.
#21
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 395
Originally Posted by GoCanes
I am a little confused by this situation... you say you purchased an A FC fare. However, in your response from DL Customer Care, they say you purchased an upgradable seat... if you bargain for FC and purchased a FC ticket and DL did not deliver a FC seat to you, then they are clearly in breach of the bargain for exchange. They should have compensated you the difference in value of what you could have purchased a discounted lowest coach ticket for on the day you made your A fare purchase.
I find it inexcusable to bump somebody from 1st and put them in coach. If they assigned you a ticket with a seat number on it and it was a crew rest seat and someone was in it, I would have made a bigger stink to get them out of the seat. The reason you were being given this seat was because you purchases a FC ticket. No one has the right to take a seat they were not assigned to, plain and simple...
I think you should write a letter to DL corporate customer care. They tend to be a little better at solving these issues and apparently have a little more power to compensate you than the general customer service people you get when you write in from the DL website.
GOOD LUCK!
I find it inexcusable to bump somebody from 1st and put them in coach. If they assigned you a ticket with a seat number on it and it was a crew rest seat and someone was in it, I would have made a bigger stink to get them out of the seat. The reason you were being given this seat was because you purchases a FC ticket. No one has the right to take a seat they were not assigned to, plain and simple...
I think you should write a letter to DL corporate customer care. They tend to be a little better at solving these issues and apparently have a little more power to compensate you than the general customer service people you get when you write in from the DL website.
GOOD LUCK!
With 20/20 vison I love the disability route and have filed it away for future use.
#22
Join Date: Jun 2004
Programs: No More Loyalty
Posts: 608
Originally Posted by Flying_Duck
Best I can tell, when you ask for "first class" during the on-line booking, it will bring up an "A" fare if one is available. I do not know of any way to bring up a true "F" fare.
Last edited by Sirecca; Jan 5, 2005 at 10:44 am
#23
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: San Diego,CA,USA
Programs: Southwest Companion Pass American Admirals Club Lifetime,IHG Rewards Spire,HHonors Gold
Posts: 1,358
Am I reading this right?
You bought a coach ticket and were placed in coach. You paid a $400 UG to get into the FC cabin and were bumped out (abviously because someone bought a 1st class ticket) I think by legal right you are entitled to your $400
back for services not rendered and you have right to this refund in cash.
In addition you should be compensated with the one way UG for a future flight.
I would accept nothing less in court.
back for services not rendered and you have right to this refund in cash.
In addition you should be compensated with the one way UG for a future flight.
I would accept nothing less in court.
#24
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2000
Programs: DL FO, Marriott Gold, SPG Gold
Posts: 12,003
Originally Posted by sanFF
You bought a coach ticket and were placed in coach. You paid a $400 UG to get into the FC cabin and were bumped out (abviously because someone bought a 1st class ticket)
#25
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: LAX/TPE
Programs: United 1K, JAL Sapphire, SPG Lifetime Platinum, National Executive Elite, Hertz PC, Avis PC
Posts: 41,935
Originally Posted by sanFF
You bought a coach ticket and were placed in coach. You paid a $400 UG to get into the FC cabin and were bumped out (abviously because someone bought a 1st class ticket) I think by legal right you are entitled to your $400
back for services not rendered and you have right to this refund in cash.
In addition you should be compensated with the one way UG for a future flight.
I would accept nothing less in court.
back for services not rendered and you have right to this refund in cash.
In addition you should be compensated with the one way UG for a future flight.
I would accept nothing less in court.
He bought a first class ticket, was bumped by a federal employee into a first class seat with coach service, and then was bumped by a rude FA from his first class seat with coach service into a coach seat with coach service and an involuntarily checked bag...all of this good news delivered to him by a gate agent who presented the offer as a time-limited take it or leave it deal.
I hope the OP keeps us informed of DL's official response to this.
#26
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Atlanta, GA
Programs: DL 3 MM/DM, Marriott Titanium Elite, Hyatt Globalist, National Exec Elite
Posts: 4,001
In all honesty, the airline employees as a group -- and not just on Delta -- have not yet come to grips with the entire discounted first class fare phenomenon.
I maintain that an A fare, while discounted off F, is still a first class fare and should be treated as such. Which, to me, means that if there are irregular operations you should be accommodated in the F cabin even if no A seats are available.
Unfortunately, the frontline employees don't think of A fares as first class fares. They think of them as coach fares with a "free" upgrade attached to them. And, the minute they hear the word "upgrade" they immediately think of the frequent flyer program upgrades, which are by definition space available and constitute a bonus but not a right, and hence the agents tend to apply the truly "free" upgrade rules to a purchased discount first class tickets -- which should not be the case.
I was booked in A on AA to HNL when there was a flight cancellation. The AAgent was willing to rebook me on DL. But, DL showed only F available (no A inventory). I thought that the first class ticket should have been endorsed over in first class. The AAgent would not do it. So, it was endorsed over in Y and then I had to use SkyMiles to upgrade it. The AAgent simply would not consider my A fare as a first class fare. Had I been booked in a very discounted coach class ticket, and only full Y fares been available on the other carrier, I would have been endorsed over in Y (i.e., the difference in coach fares does not matter).
It will be interesting to see if Simplifares changes this at all, since there will be an abundance of discounted first class fares sold.
I maintain that an A fare, while discounted off F, is still a first class fare and should be treated as such. Which, to me, means that if there are irregular operations you should be accommodated in the F cabin even if no A seats are available.
Unfortunately, the frontline employees don't think of A fares as first class fares. They think of them as coach fares with a "free" upgrade attached to them. And, the minute they hear the word "upgrade" they immediately think of the frequent flyer program upgrades, which are by definition space available and constitute a bonus but not a right, and hence the agents tend to apply the truly "free" upgrade rules to a purchased discount first class tickets -- which should not be the case.
I was booked in A on AA to HNL when there was a flight cancellation. The AAgent was willing to rebook me on DL. But, DL showed only F available (no A inventory). I thought that the first class ticket should have been endorsed over in first class. The AAgent would not do it. So, it was endorsed over in Y and then I had to use SkyMiles to upgrade it. The AAgent simply would not consider my A fare as a first class fare. Had I been booked in a very discounted coach class ticket, and only full Y fares been available on the other carrier, I would have been endorsed over in Y (i.e., the difference in coach fares does not matter).
It will be interesting to see if Simplifares changes this at all, since there will be an abundance of discounted first class fares sold.
#27
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Atlanta, GA
Programs: DL 3 MM/DM, Marriott Titanium Elite, Hyatt Globalist, National Exec Elite
Posts: 4,001
Originally Posted by bocastephen
An "A" fare is not a coach ticket, it's a first class ticket. There are some other fares which are coach fares that upgrade into first, such as the QDLUPTN fares (sold as Q, booked in A inventory), but a published A fare is sold as A and booked in A - a fully legitimate first class fare...if the fare basis started with the letter A or F - perhaps the OP can tell us the fare basis off his ticket?
I would maintain that even if the fare code is QDLUPTN, if it is booked in A it is still a First Class fare. You don't even have to have Q seats available to book a QDLUPTN fare; you do have to have A seats available. Therefore, the fare basis code, IMO, should not be relevant; it is the bucket in which the reservation is booked, A, which matters.
#28
Moderator: Hilton Honors forums
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Marietta, Georgia, United States
Posts: 24,977
Originally Posted by Sirecca
Must be the routes I check (or just bad timing). Can you give me a couple of examples out of ATL?
- Los Angeles
- San Francisco
- Chicago
- Pittsburgh
- Milwaukee
- Newark
#29
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: LAX/TPE
Programs: United 1K, JAL Sapphire, SPG Lifetime Platinum, National Executive Elite, Hertz PC, Avis PC
Posts: 41,935
Robert, I agree with you 100%, but in practice a QDLUPTN fare is considered an 'upgrade' fare by DL staff - something I learned first hand on numerous occasions this year. I had agents make sure I 'understood' there was a clear distinction between my fare and a 'real' first class fare - and was told outright I was on an upgraded fare.
However, in the OP's case - he bought a published first class fare and he was not given the product or service he paid for...and additionally, he was not treated properly by the front line staff. DL owes the OP financial compensation for the lost value of the paid-for service not delivered, as well as some reasonable compensation for the improper way the staff handled his case.
You are correct - it should be standard policy that any customer who pays a fare that books into a FC bucket should be treated as though they purchased a first class fare...period....regardless of whether the fare basis has an A, F, I, or Q. Perhaps the "new" Delta will ensure this concept is properly ingrained in the minds of their staff. I did not appreciate being lectured by res agents who spoke to me like I was some kind of cheapskate taking advantage of a loophole by booking a QDLUPTN fare.
However, in the OP's case - he bought a published first class fare and he was not given the product or service he paid for...and additionally, he was not treated properly by the front line staff. DL owes the OP financial compensation for the lost value of the paid-for service not delivered, as well as some reasonable compensation for the improper way the staff handled his case.
You are correct - it should be standard policy that any customer who pays a fare that books into a FC bucket should be treated as though they purchased a first class fare...period....regardless of whether the fare basis has an A, F, I, or Q. Perhaps the "new" Delta will ensure this concept is properly ingrained in the minds of their staff. I did not appreciate being lectured by res agents who spoke to me like I was some kind of cheapskate taking advantage of a loophole by booking a QDLUPTN fare.
#30
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: CVG
Programs: UA-Silver; Hyatt Platinum; SPG Gold
Posts: 793
I too have had the issues of other posters with DL staff pointing out that these types of tickets are "upgraded coach". Of course this only happens during irregular ops which I experienced a few months ago.
Also I agree with everyone else that if Delta is selling this fare as "First Class" as listed on the reservation then it should be treated as such. Otherwise they should list the fare as "Upgraded Coach".
Also I agree with everyone else that if Delta is selling this fare as "First Class" as listed on the reservation then it should be treated as such. Otherwise they should list the fare as "Upgraded Coach".