May 5, 2017, 3:35 pm
Last edit by: Kamalaasaa
Confirmed facts:
Best guesses, but unconfirmed:
Wild guesses/assumptions/unknowns:
- Incident concerns DL2222 on 23 APR 2017. Flight ended up departing gate 54 minutes late.
- Family comprised of 5 people: mother, father, 18 year-old son, 2.5 year-old son, 1.5 year-old infant
- Entire family flew together on outbound
- Family claims 1.5 year-old was allowed to travel in own seat on outbound
- 18 year-old left Hawaii on earlier flight (unknown time/airline)
- Father claims (as reported here) that "he was led to believe the switch was not a big deal ... his family told airline staff about the situation from the beginning, and that Delta suggested using the seat for the infant son" and "At the airport ... they spoke with a ticketing agent downstairs who said they technically needed to cancel and buy a new ticket, before saying it was fine. The family obtained the boarding pass."
- Police are already on board by the time video begins
- In video, family is seated across four seats in Main Cabin as follows (seat number references): 44C-dad; 44D-mom; 44E-child in car seat; 44F-child in car seat
- Family was allowed on board with 2 car seats
- During video, DL agent incorrectly cites FAA regulations concerning use of car seats, infant-in-arms, and age restrictions for seating
- During video, DL agent threatens parents with being sent to jail
- As reported here (beginning at 4:25 in video), father "describes how he and his family had gotten onto the plane after passing through multiple checkpoints in the airport and at the gate, where the airline could have stopped them before they took their seats and set up their two toddlers in car seats."
- During video, woman in seat 44A can't seem to stop fiddling with her hair
- At end of video, family offers to fly with 1.5 year-old as infant-in-arms. DL declines and asks them to leave flight
- Initial statement by DL claims that incident was not a result of overbooking the flight
Best guesses, but unconfirmed:
- Family purchased 4 tickets: mother, father, 18 year-old son, 2.5 year-old son
- 1.5 year-old was listed as infant-in-arms with one of the parents
- 1.5 year-old was occupying seat previously assigned to 18 year-old
- Standby list existed with enough people on it to fill all vacant seats on plane
Wild guesses/assumptions/unknowns:
- Unknown how 18 year-old's new flight was ticketed (new DL flight, different airline, SDC/SDS, change to orignal ticket, etc.)
- Unknown what events transpired before the video begins
- Unknown what conversations occurred between DL agents and family prior to flight (either ACS or phone agents)
- Unknown if 18 year-old's ticket was used by family to check him in to the flight
- Unknown if 18 year-old's BP was scanned during boarding process
- Unknown how or when DL agents realized 18 year-old was not present for flight
- Unknown what options DL agents provided family when initially trying to seat standby passenger
- Unknown whether flight was overbooked
- Unknown why standby passengers were on standby (SDS, IRROPS, NRSA, etc.)
- Unknown whether GA attempted to gate check car seats
family kicked off of delta flight maui to lax
May 4, 2017, 4:57 pm
#226
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DL, IMO, lacked appropriate empathy and common sense here. It is easy to understand what the family was trying to do, and at the very lest, they should have been allowed to fly with infant in arms.
May 4, 2017, 4:59 pm
#227
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The simple approach to 'scam' the airline would have been to use the 18 year-olds boarding pass to board the one-year old.
May 4, 2017, 5:13 pm
#228
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 152
This is the one really big question I have not seen a good answer for. If the family bought a fifth ticket, why didn't they just buy it for the one passenger who didn't already have a ticket? (Possibly answer is there was not a fifth ticket available on their flight, or it was more expensive than the fif thicket they did buy). My initial thought reading and watching this is wouldn't the older son have just SDC'ed and stood-by using their existing ticket? Maybe he needed to get home for sports or something and the family thought "great, now his seat will be empty".
The simple approach to 'scam' the airline would have been to use the 18 year-olds boarding pass to board the one-year old.
The simple approach to 'scam' the airline would have been to use the 18 year-olds boarding pass to board the one-year old.
Not sure it could even be done honestly, I guess they could have cancelled the original PNR and paid for all of them to fly back one way?
Obviously they shouldn't have let it get to the point and just moved the kid to a lap and flown. Obviously DL's representatives probably didn't need to go nuclear and lie to the PAX.
What we don't know, did DL's automated system see that the 18 year old didn't board, clear a standby pax and then run into the issue? We'll never know, they paid the family and it's over and done with.
May 4, 2017, 5:15 pm
#229
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 68
Amateur move to not at least try and check in/scan boarding pass of 18 yo. Not sure if systems would have caught same PAX on 2 flights in same day.
May 4, 2017, 5:22 pm
#230
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If the ticket for the eldest child was still applicable for this flight, it was indeed a non-self-serving move to not have it scanned. I've been on five flights on a given day and it wasn't a problem at the scanners.
May 4, 2017, 5:22 pm
#231
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This family is a family of thieves. They didn't use a ticket, but they wanted to use the seat anyway for their un-ticketed baby.
Good for Delta for not letting them steal a seat.
Most likely the 18 year old who didn't use the ticket went on another flight and received partial or full credit for the unused ticket depending on what Delta's standby and cancellation rules were.
I'm disappointed that Delta didn't refer them to the police. Theft is theft. This isn't a Dr. Dao case.
Good for Delta for not letting them steal a seat.
Most likely the 18 year old who didn't use the ticket went on another flight and received partial or full credit for the unused ticket depending on what Delta's standby and cancellation rules were.
I'm disappointed that Delta didn't refer them to the police. Theft is theft. This isn't a Dr. Dao case.
Last edited by reamworks; May 4, 2017 at 5:29 pm
May 4, 2017, 5:42 pm
#233
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these are the facts:
ticket was for older son.
older son took an earlier flight
they had a lap child with them
they tried to use the older sons seat for their lap child
they were taken off the plane
those are the facts. now we can speculate about the circumstances and what not. this is a forum after all for flying matters
now to answer your question about where to draw the line. i think the airlines need to give the GA some discretion to use common sense. No, you cannot bring a random person instead of the person who was going to use the seat. but they should be able to replace the older childs name with the lap child. both have been cleared for the flight. if somebody's wife/gf died, thats a different story. the airlines should ask for a death certificate and simply refund the fare.
ticket was for older son.
older son took an earlier flight
they had a lap child with them
they tried to use the older sons seat for their lap child
they were taken off the plane
those are the facts. now we can speculate about the circumstances and what not. this is a forum after all for flying matters
now to answer your question about where to draw the line. i think the airlines need to give the GA some discretion to use common sense. No, you cannot bring a random person instead of the person who was going to use the seat. but they should be able to replace the older childs name with the lap child. both have been cleared for the flight. if somebody's wife/gf died, thats a different story. the airlines should ask for a death certificate and simply refund the fare.
I wonder how old the older child was and if he was young enough to be a UM I wonder if the parents paid the UM Fee
May 4, 2017, 5:45 pm
#234
Join Date: Apr 2011
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Downright horrendous service from the DL staff. Anyway you look at it, they deserve the blame for making this an issue. I don't expect the family to know all of the fine print, like one person being tied to a ticket. Name changes being free and easy should be the case, but it isn't. But I do expect the airline to know the fine print. DL allowed them on the plane. If they got on the plane, that means only two things--either DL screwed up and shouldn't have let them through, or there was a solution to offer that allowed them to fly (which was the case). They should have offered to make one a lap child, and it's sad that only the dad was on the right track with it. DL agents offered no solutions unlike the passenger, stated flat-out wrong info at times, and treated them like dirt in the end. The father handled it fairly well considering how poorly he and his family was being treated. DL is lucky he didn't turn this into a Dao incident. They were treated far worse.
May 4, 2017, 5:50 pm
#236
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But since you asked, the comments written by the family in question on a video posted almost a week later can say whatever they want and are certainly going to be motivated to portray thing in a way that puts them in the best possible light. So yes, I very much trust videos and photos much more than the written YouTube comments from one side of the story. The video and photos are theirs as well, of course, but much harder to put a spin on.
Thus, attempting to use that ticket for any other person is an invalid use of the ticket. In fact, if you want to get technical about it, checking in for the 18yo, clearing security, and boarding the flight with that BP could be construed as misrepresenting the identity of whoever was attempting to use said ticket.
May 4, 2017, 5:58 pm
#237
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At this point, I'm not really sure why it matters...
Judging from the video, the guy was genuinely confused as to why they wouldn't let him keep the seat that he had paid for (yes, I know his son taking the earlier flight and not flying the segment in question meant that the son forfeited the seat). He may not be a frequent flyer and as a result may not be as well versed in airline policies -- CLEARLY he wasn't because he bought his 18 year old son a new ticket instead of SDS/SDC the original ticket.
I think I read towards the beginning of the thread that the GA said it was ok to take the seat, if that's the case, Delta is in the wrong; otherwise, the pax is in the wrong even though he doesn't see why.
In any event, the flight attendant that effectively threatened him and his family (with jail and foster care) should be reprimanded and do some remedial training.
Judging from the video, the guy was genuinely confused as to why they wouldn't let him keep the seat that he had paid for (yes, I know his son taking the earlier flight and not flying the segment in question meant that the son forfeited the seat). He may not be a frequent flyer and as a result may not be as well versed in airline policies -- CLEARLY he wasn't because he bought his 18 year old son a new ticket instead of SDS/SDC the original ticket.
I think I read towards the beginning of the thread that the GA said it was ok to take the seat, if that's the case, Delta is in the wrong; otherwise, the pax is in the wrong even though he doesn't see why.
In any event, the flight attendant that effectively threatened him and his family (with jail and foster care) should be reprimanded and do some remedial training.
May 4, 2017, 6:00 pm
#238
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But yes, horrible CS effort, in particular the threats and blatant misinformation.
May 4, 2017, 6:07 pm
#239
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This family is a family of thieves. They didn't use a ticket, but they wanted to use the seat anyway for their un-ticketed baby.
Good for Delta for not letting them steal a seat.
Most likely the 18 year old who didn't use the ticket went on another flight and received partial or full credit for the unused ticket depending on what Delta's standby and cancellation rules were.
I'm disappointed that Delta didn't refer them to the police. Theft is theft. This isn't a Dr. Dao case.
Good for Delta for not letting them steal a seat.
Most likely the 18 year old who didn't use the ticket went on another flight and received partial or full credit for the unused ticket depending on what Delta's standby and cancellation rules were.
I'm disappointed that Delta didn't refer them to the police. Theft is theft. This isn't a Dr. Dao case.
May 4, 2017, 6:08 pm
#240
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 96
This family is a family of thieves. They didn't use a ticket, but they wanted to use the seat anyway for their un-ticketed baby.
Good for Delta for not letting them steal a seat.
Most likely the 18 year old who didn't use the ticket went on another flight and received partial or full credit for the unused ticket depending on what Delta's standby and cancellation rules were.
I'm disappointed that Delta didn't refer them to the police. Theft is theft. This isn't a Dr. Dao case.
Good for Delta for not letting them steal a seat.
Most likely the 18 year old who didn't use the ticket went on another flight and received partial or full credit for the unused ticket depending on what Delta's standby and cancellation rules were.
I'm disappointed that Delta didn't refer them to the police. Theft is theft. This isn't a Dr. Dao case.