Premium Economy Upgrades
Jan 18, 2017, 1:00 pm
#16
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 81
But the lower-quality product almost certainly had a higher price to begin with than if that "free" perk hadn't been available at all. You're just paying for it in the previous flights you'd taken to attain the status (and possibly/probably being subsidized by leisure travelers as well).
When you paid for previous flights, you paid for previous flights.
If subsidies are the issue, then why should business travelers traveling on tickets paid for by the employer be upgraded?
Jan 18, 2017, 1:05 pm
#17
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: MSP
Programs: Marriott LT Titanium, UA Silver (via Marriott)
Posts: 642
Agree to disagree. I'm sure marketers love you, as they can charge you more up front in exchange for small freebies later. And I guess it works well - I'm sure if Delta lowered prices across the board and dumped the SkyMiles program, they would lose a ton of business.
Jan 18, 2017, 1:10 pm
#19
Join Date: Jun 2013
Programs: DL Plat, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Plat, IHG Plat, Hertz Prez Circle, National Exec
Posts: 1,357
Which is exactly why consolidator fares aren't eligible for elite earnings or benefits. Because that was negotiated out of the price.
Jan 18, 2017, 1:11 pm
#20
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 81
Agree to disagree. I'm sure marketers love you, as they can charge you more up front in exchange for small freebies later. And I guess it works well - I'm sure if Delta lowered prices across the board and dumped the SkyMiles program, they would lose a ton of business.
Marketers probably do love me because I don't expect what I don't pay for and I don't consider myself beholden to any one carrier or network.
And I agree that they would lose business if they dropped their program without similar moves by the competition.
However, I wonder how it would play out if they offered a business class fare that was consistent with the actual increase in quality and that was in reach for more travelers to pay out-of-pocket.
It will be interesting (for me, at least) to see how carriers like Norwegian play out in that they offer a premium product at an affordable cost.
Jan 18, 2017, 1:19 pm
#21
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Back in Reds Country (DAY/CVG). Previously: SEA & SAT.
Programs: DL PM 1MM, AA PLAT, UA Silver, Marriott Bonvoy Titanium
Posts: 10,348
Upgrades aren't given for free. They're paid for by choosing Delta over a competitor dozens of times over the course of the year.
Thinking upgrades are free is the same as thinking that drinks are free at an all inclusive resort. They aren't free, they just aren't paid for directly each time you get another round.
Thinking upgrades are free is the same as thinking that drinks are free at an all inclusive resort. They aren't free, they just aren't paid for directly each time you get another round.
I'm a firm "WFBF" guy and believe if you don't get upgraded because F is full, you're in no position to whine and you should have bought first class, but I choose DL over other options for the benefits, including complimentary upgrades, which I've done well enough with that I have determined to be of value to continue to choose DL over options.
That seems a bit loosy-goosy.
I have shopped at the same food market a couple of times a week for many years. There are other markets in my neighborhood.
Should I expect to get an extra dozen eggs thrown in when I shop?
Should I expect to get a gallon of milk for the price of a half gallon if that isn't offered to everyone?
There is an expectation that air travel has created and that self-important flyers have come to expect and that is unique to this kind of industry.
I have shopped at the same food market a couple of times a week for many years. There are other markets in my neighborhood.
Should I expect to get an extra dozen eggs thrown in when I shop?
Should I expect to get a gallon of milk for the price of a half gallon if that isn't offered to everyone?
There is an expectation that air travel has created and that self-important flyers have come to expect and that is unique to this kind of industry.
And it extends beyond the airlines too. It's really the travel industry as a hotel. Hotels do the same thing, as do rental car companies.
Jan 18, 2017, 1:22 pm
#22
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: LAX
Programs: Fallen DL DM (PM) 2MM
Posts: 4,783
First off, we are talking about a future PE cabin, not D1 -- that is important.
My understanding is planes with PE will not have C+ so I do feel that is a devaluation -- I am losing something I had before.
I don't remember the proposed layout but on AF the PE cabin is often 2-4-2 -- by offering at OLCI I can make a decision about a middle PE vs my current Y seat. I doubt there will be whole lot of last minute PE seats sold.
A compromise might be to allow RUCs to be used to upgrade to PE -- that will restrict it to PM and DM.
The good news for me is it appears the planes with PE will mostly be TPAC and I am mostly TATL. By the time they get it TATL it probably won't matter (i.e. not flying so much)
My understanding is planes with PE will not have C+ so I do feel that is a devaluation -- I am losing something I had before.
I don't remember the proposed layout but on AF the PE cabin is often 2-4-2 -- by offering at OLCI I can make a decision about a middle PE vs my current Y seat. I doubt there will be whole lot of last minute PE seats sold.
A compromise might be to allow RUCs to be used to upgrade to PE -- that will restrict it to PM and DM.
The good news for me is it appears the planes with PE will mostly be TPAC and I am mostly TATL. By the time they get it TATL it probably won't matter (i.e. not flying so much)
Jan 18, 2017, 1:24 pm
#23
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 81
This ^
I'm a firm "WFBF" guy and believe if you don't get upgraded because F is full, you're in no position to whine and you should have bought first class, but I choose DL over other options for the benefits, including complimentary upgrades, which I've done well enough with that I have determined to be of value to continue to choose DL over options.
Um, false. While the grocery store may not give you a "free" dozen eggs, many grocery stores still have rewards programs. They'll also send out coupons without even needing to be loyal. Restaurants will offer coupons as well any many restaurants have "rewards" programs too. Perhaps a "buy so many and get a free meal". Starbucks offers free refills to Starbucks Gold members.
And it extends beyond the airlines too. It's really the travel industry as a hotel. Hotels do the same thing, as do rental car companies.
I'm a firm "WFBF" guy and believe if you don't get upgraded because F is full, you're in no position to whine and you should have bought first class, but I choose DL over other options for the benefits, including complimentary upgrades, which I've done well enough with that I have determined to be of value to continue to choose DL over options.
Um, false. While the grocery store may not give you a "free" dozen eggs, many grocery stores still have rewards programs. They'll also send out coupons without even needing to be loyal. Restaurants will offer coupons as well any many restaurants have "rewards" programs too. Perhaps a "buy so many and get a free meal". Starbucks offers free refills to Starbucks Gold members.
And it extends beyond the airlines too. It's really the travel industry as a hotel. Hotels do the same thing, as do rental car companies.
I fully agree that airlines created this by offering frequent traveler programs. That doesn't, however, change the definition of the word "free".
And, as far as I know, stores that offer rewards programs will give the extra benefit to all members of the program. I could be mistaken but I don't know of any that will offer the extras to some of their loyalty members but not to all. I get that supplies would be limited but I think the dynamic is a tad different.
Jan 18, 2017, 1:32 pm
#24
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: VPS, previously SEA and PIT
Programs: DL Diamond/1MM, Hilton Diamond, Hertz President's Circle
Posts: 1,200
Perhaps you didn't read all of what I have said.
I fully agree that airlines created this by offering frequent traveler programs. That doesn't, however, change the definition of the word "free".
And, as far as I know, stores that offer rewards programs will give the extra benefit to all members of the program. I could be mistaken but I don't know of any that will offer the extras to some of their loyalty members but not to all. I get that supplies would be limited but I think the dynamic is a tad different.
I fully agree that airlines created this by offering frequent traveler programs. That doesn't, however, change the definition of the word "free".
And, as far as I know, stores that offer rewards programs will give the extra benefit to all members of the program. I could be mistaken but I don't know of any that will offer the extras to some of their loyalty members but not to all. I get that supplies would be limited but I think the dynamic is a tad different.
Jan 18, 2017, 1:41 pm
#25
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Mostly living in the basement
Programs: Newly minted free agent; MR LT(!)TE, HH SE, BA SECM, DL MM, UA PS, 2V Fanboi, CBP GE
Posts: 5,108
Without getting into the "I'm a more important customer than you are" argument that we've had like 1000 times here, my recollection is that the DL W cabin will be on the larger side, more like VS than AF. That's going to be an awful lot of seats to fill, and I could see DL matching a DoD policy for DMs as a temporary way to fill those seats (and a "loss leader" or marketing effort to get people to try the product).
But even if they did, I'd then expect the longer term reduction in the size of the cabin or reduction in the cost of the seat (which seems unlikely, given the price differential between Y and W is often not that large, relatively speaking) if sales didn't pick up, much like we've seen with the J cabin shrinkage or FCM.
That said, I'd expect most DoD W seats to be middles, and while in general any W seat is more comfortable than any Y seat, if I need an aisle I might not see any value in this.
But even if they did, I'd then expect the longer term reduction in the size of the cabin or reduction in the cost of the seat (which seems unlikely, given the price differential between Y and W is often not that large, relatively speaking) if sales didn't pick up, much like we've seen with the J cabin shrinkage or FCM.
That said, I'd expect most DoD W seats to be middles, and while in general any W seat is more comfortable than any Y seat, if I need an aisle I might not see any value in this.
Jan 18, 2017, 1:50 pm
#26
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Back in Reds Country (DAY/CVG). Previously: SEA & SAT.
Programs: DL PM 1MM, AA PLAT, UA Silver, Marriott Bonvoy Titanium
Posts: 10,348
And, as far as I know, stores that offer rewards programs will give the extra benefit to all members of the program. I could be mistaken but I don't know of any that will offer the extras to some of their loyalty members but not to all. I get that supplies would be limited but I think the dynamic is a tad different.
2) Same as above, plenty of stores offer rewards for certain spenders. Just because they don't attach an "elite" title to it means all qualify. You only qualify for that perk if you meet a certain mark. Plenty of stores will offer a "Spend so much and get $X back" or "Spend so much and get a discount" or "spend $X and get a 'free' gift." How is this different than an airline that says "fly this much and pay this much and get some benefits?" Hint: it's not.
And yes, you're definitely mistaken, because even a place like Starbucks has an "elite" level within its rewards program that gets you some perks that not all Starbucks Rewards members get.
Last edited by ATOBTTR; Jan 18, 2017 at 2:11 pm
Jan 18, 2017, 2:06 pm
#28
Suspended
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: MEM
Programs: Starbucks Green Card
Posts: 5,431
Jan 18, 2017, 2:32 pm
#30
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 81
Love it! 
Agree - but there is generally a limited supply that far underserves the number of qualified fliers. So lots of heartbreak all around.
That 3K you spent bought you 3K in travel. Anything else is indeed free.
In my experience stores stock up to meet the supply generated by their reward programs and coupons. I don't think that airlines do, but I'm open to learning if that's not the case. The number of seats in F/J per plane is fixed, no?
I certainly have never seen long lists of people eligible for free milk offered by a loyalty program only to be turned away. But YMMV and maybe that happens where others live. Same with Starbucks - when people go to redeem their awards I'm pretty sure that the supply generally exists and people aren't turned away.
But again, that's where I live and travel and your experience may be different.
No I did see what you said and you're wrong. It's not "free". It's given in exchange for "loyalty" (for what that word is worth), and it costs a certain amount of money to get there. On DL you have to spend at least $3K a year to be eligible for the upgrades and other benefits (or spend $25K on a DL branded credit card), plus hit the other requirements. Is that $3K in travel "free"? No. For many of us, that means often paying a premium to fly DL over other options as well. That premium isn't "free". DL may even be the cheapest option and there's no premium being paid, but regardless, the customer is choosing DL over and over and over - more so than other customers. Do you think "free college tuition" would actually be "free" too?
1) DL's Medallion perks are available to all members who can qualify for Medallion status. Yes if too many begin to qualify DL may raise the bar, but it's available to all customer if they're willing and able to qualify.
2) Same as above, plenty of stores offer rewards for certain spenders. Just because they don't attach an "elite" title to it means all qualify. You only qualify for that perk if you meet a certain mark. Plenty of stores will offer a "Spend so much and get $X back" or "Spend so much and get a discount" or "spend $X and get a 'free' gift." How is this different than an airline that says "fly this much and pay this much and get some benefits?" Hint: it's not.
And yes, you're definitely mistaken, because even a place like Starbucks has an "elite" level within its rewards program that gets you some perks that not all Starbucks Rewards members get.
1) DL's Medallion perks are available to all members who can qualify for Medallion status. Yes if too many begin to qualify DL may raise the bar, but it's available to all customer if they're willing and able to qualify.
2) Same as above, plenty of stores offer rewards for certain spenders. Just because they don't attach an "elite" title to it means all qualify. You only qualify for that perk if you meet a certain mark. Plenty of stores will offer a "Spend so much and get $X back" or "Spend so much and get a discount" or "spend $X and get a 'free' gift." How is this different than an airline that says "fly this much and pay this much and get some benefits?" Hint: it's not.
And yes, you're definitely mistaken, because even a place like Starbucks has an "elite" level within its rewards program that gets you some perks that not all Starbucks Rewards members get.
In my experience stores stock up to meet the supply generated by their reward programs and coupons. I don't think that airlines do, but I'm open to learning if that's not the case. The number of seats in F/J per plane is fixed, no?
I certainly have never seen long lists of people eligible for free milk offered by a loyalty program only to be turned away. But YMMV and maybe that happens where others live. Same with Starbucks - when people go to redeem their awards I'm pretty sure that the supply generally exists and people aren't turned away.
But again, that's where I live and travel and your experience may be different.