nomii

On a recent Etihad flight I had the middle 4 economy seat row all to myself, and I had a good night sleep on those 4, waking up fresh. I remember thinking that business passengers were suckers to pay for their smaller space compared to my very long and comfortable 4-economy seats.

Should I have been charged for 4 seats?

formeraa

I once was flying AA from NRT to DFW back in the MD11 days. I had a middle section of 5 seats to myself, while F and J were full. I ate dinner, got 8 hours of sleep, and then had breakfast before arrival. And the two FA's in Y were very pleasant and accommodating!

thesaints

If crew announced that passengers cannot move between cabins you might have a point under interfering with a crew. When they do, they announce instead that passengers should use the toilets in their cabin, therefore going to sit in D1 is not disregarding flight crew instructions, provided you go back as soon as they tell you.

You guys will be surprised to know that if you park your car unlocked it is perfectly legal for me to open the door and sit in it.

CarmenOM

Isn't that trespassing? Under the same logic is it perfectly legal to enter any house in which the door is unlocked?

PayItForward

Other than certain budget airlines, all boarding passes comes with an assigned seat. During boarding, they "guide" you to your assigned seats and from time to time, you are told to stay in your (assigned) seats. The empty seat upfront or anywhere other than the one listed on your boarding pass is not your seat. Clear enough?

Do you go to a theatre and try to grab the empty front seats despite buying a back of the hall seat? It would be legally fine according to your logic and neither do they make public announcements about seat rules. Just reminders to switch your mobile phones to silent etc.

Most here were not going for OP's blood. Just kind of warning, you got away once, fine. Keep it quiet and if you do it again, be wary that it is not allowed and there could be consequences. Do not push your luck etc This is also for other readers who comes across this and not interpret that it is fine.

If airlines are not giving their top-tiers unlimited upgrades on BE flights, that in itself tells you that they only want paying customers there (could be cash, could be miles, could be instruments) or reserve it as a benefit for their employees. How far would they go if they caught someone, it is anyone's guess. But it will certainly go worse if you are unapologetic and start things like it is not a crime.

As for those who tries to equate taking 4 empty Y seats. This is not an apple to apple comparison. Additionally, OP did get some stuff out of the poached BE seat. the extra legroom and the lie flat is part of what makes it a BE experience. If it was the same, why take that seat. So something was taken (consumed) without paying nor permission.

NoStressHere

Please come back in a few weeks and let us know if Delta took any action.

flyerCO

Federal law requires a valid ticket. The passenger will not have a valid ticket for the J cabin, and thus can be charged if it's pushed. Also on international flights it's US law that US carrier coach passengers can't enter the J/F cabin.

As for charging, they can indeed require payment without warning. Otherwise you've just committed theft of services. Just because you sneak in a concert at a Las Vegas casino, doesn't mean you can't be charged for it because no one told there was a charge. Now without a contract, if you don't make the payment, they must get a court order to force collection. However the court doesn't require that you had a contract in order to force you to pay for services you consumed.

Trespassing wouldn't apply. While the passenger isn't allowed to consume J services, as a ticketed passenger, they are entitle to be on the plane itself. Other laws do apply though, thus while not trespassing, other charges could be filed.

ATOBTTR

The plane scene from Bridesmaids is playing out in my head as I read this thread. "Help me - I'm poor".

zrs70

Doesn't matter if you get caught or not. It's still not doing the right thing.

thesaints

No. California law, but I'd be surprised if it were very different in other states: entering somebody else's house is actually breaking & entering even if the door is unlocked, provided the house is inhabited, or there is reason to believe it might be.

Instead, the parked, unlocked, car is treated the same as an unfenced yard.

thesaints

In fact, unless they tell you to leave, or demand payment if you stay, it is perfectly fine to stay without paying one cent extra.

It is not a crime; that's the point. It doesn't mean you can stay without paying extra if they ask you and it doesn't mean you have to pay extra instead of going back to your original seat.


You are mixing a lot of different things. Granted, if you spend the entire flight in J and are served J meals and drinks and they tell you you have to pay extra, then you are certainly liable.


Such as ?

ATOBTTR

What you're actually saying is it's perfectly fine if you don't get caught. This is why sports arenas have ushers that check your ticket - to prevent people like the OP from sneaking into better seats than what they paid for. Just because you didn't get caught doesn't mean it's okay.

Is it alright if OP just grabbed booze off the cart and drank it without paying for it when the FA wasn't looking? If not, how is that any different than what OP did? Is it acceptable to pay for one movie at a movie theater and then just hop into another one after the movie you paid for is over without buying another ticket for the second movie?

The list of examples could go on and on. What OP didn't wasn't "perfectly fine" - OP just didn't get caught.

PayItForward

But OP already consumed a portion of the product by sleeping there. The experience of the lie-flat, bigger seat, more leg room is part of the Delta One product features and OP used the product. It is not just the better food and drinks. The seat is a major part of it and it is in no uncertain terms consumed.

Imagine you pay for a general buffet which does not include premium drinks. You see no one is watching the bar counter and started drinking. When the bartender comes around and tells you that you are not entitled to the premium drink. You do not get to just return the opened and consumed drink just as OP slept and cannot un-use the lie flat seat.

Back to the theatre. If you sat at the front premium seats for the show, I do not see an issue with the theatre trying to collect from you the price difference as you did not sit at the seat you purchased if they caught you. If you are not caught, of course you can get away with anything if you are not caught.

While I know most big organisations will not risk bad publicity over small matters like poaching a BE seat and no food / drinks was consumed, that does not however make the action any less wrong. It should be discouraged simply because it is wrong.

My stand is that it is wrong but Delta (if they found out) is free to pursue "losses" or drop it with a warning.

Your stand, from how I read your posts are almost akin to
"Hey, let's grab some stuff and leave without paying. If caught, just give the stuff back. Afterall, no one explicitly told you as you entered the store that you have to pay for the stuff so you thought it must be fine to just take it. Now that it is made known otherwise, returning the stuff should resolve the matter right?"

flyerCO

It doesn't matter if you spend only a few minutes or the whole flight. The lie-flat seat is a service that is being paid for in D1, and it's being consumed even if only for a few minutes. It doesn't matter if you steal a lot, or just a little bit, it's still stealing. How likely is the airline to press the issue unless you act like an a******? Not very likely. However that doesn't mean someone won't have a bad day and decide to press the case. As stated, no valid ticket for travel and theft of services are the most likely charges.

As I made clear trespassing isn't an issue though. As long as the passenger has a ticket anywhere on the plane, then they can't be charged for trespassing. In this case it's just like going to a business that you have permission to be at. You then enter a private area without permission. They can kick you out and tell you not to come back. However you did have permission to be on the property, thus you weren't trespassing.

The airline can then after pressing the case, demand you pay for what was taken. If you refuse or can't pay, then they'll file a civil case against you to collect for what you took without paying. (Note paying after the fact doesn't change the fact you stole the services) Since the price of the J ticket is the same regardless of if you sit in the seat for a few minutes or the whole flight, the whole J ticket price is what can be asked for.

Again, all of this is about as likely as winning the lotto. Unless you're acting like a plain jerk/fill in the term, they're not coming after you for a couple minutes use.

craig44485

So this question begs to be asked, if you were a paying Delta 1 passenger on this flight and saw the OP poach the seat, what would you do? Say nothing, or report the theft to the FA?