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Blistering NYT piece on SkyMiles: In DLs FF Magic Trick, Not Just Rabbits Disappear

Blistering NYT piece on SkyMiles: In DLs FF Magic Trick, Not Just Rabbits Disappear

Old Aug 4, 2015, 8:49 pm
  #136  
 
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Originally Posted by CPMaverick
Quote:





Originally Posted by DL2SXM


Folks, and lets be honest with each other, how many people here live in Australia, collect skymiles and/or will be originating a round trip award itinerary from SYD? I am guessing the answer is less then .00001%. Who really cares what it costs mileage wise to travel from SYD to the states. And, if you are that less then .0001%, live in Australia and collect skymiles then shame on you.




I am that person. Why shame on me? Virgin Australia is a great airline, and gives good RDM and MQM on Delta. And they reward Delta PLT and above with free lounge access, free bags, and free same-day flight changes.

I find the Diamond upgrade certs very useful for the long-hauls to the US and Skymiles can be better than Velocity in some ways.

So why shame on me? Or is it that you have no idea what it would be like to live in Australia and collect Skymiles? You are just ignorant of what you are slamming. Nice trolling.
+1000 always nice when someone else's myopic view of the world is the only perspective they have.
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Old Aug 4, 2015, 9:19 pm
  #137  
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Blistering NYT piece on SkyMiles: In DL’s FF Magic Trick, Not Just Rabbits Disappear

Originally Posted by pbarnette
Just because you aren't motivated by an FF program doesn't mean you won't maximize it if available.

And, FWIW, I think this whole "this is a FF forum" nonsense that is trotted out routinely is beyond stupid. Moreover, I think those saying it know it. There is a lot of great information on this site that has nothing to do with FF programs. Indeed, I'd say the majority of the information on this site has nothing to do with FF programs. To use the "this is a FF forum" canard to try and stifle dissenting views is disingenuous BS. And you are better than that and you know it.

+2. Couldn't have said it better myself.

FT provides tons of value in things like how airline policies work in practice, seating nuances, connection times, lounge access nuances, and other things that help make the travel experience more pleasant.

To say that, because I prioritize those things, I should have no interest in the FFP is absurd. I do have the ability to recognize that any FFP is icing on the cake, and at the same time very much enjoy icing.

Last edited by RSSrsvp; Aug 5, 2015 at 11:27 am Reason: Removed quote deleted by the moderator
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Old Aug 4, 2015, 9:23 pm
  #138  
 
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Originally Posted by CPMaverick
I am that person. Why shame on me? Virgin Australia is a great airline, and gives good RDM and MQM on Delta. And they reward Delta PLT and above with free lounge access, free bags, and free same-day flight changes.

I find the Diamond upgrade certs very useful for the long-hauls to the US and Skymiles can be better than Velocity in some ways.

So why shame on me? Or is it that you have no idea what it would be like to live in Australia and collect Skymiles? You are just ignorant of what you are slamming. Nice trolling.
+10000

The extreme narrow-mindedness and myopic view of some of the frequent trolls here (who unfortunately are still allowed to roam in the wild and don't have their accounts suspended) is truly mind boggling, especially if they actually believe the insolent nonsense that that they are spewing. Even though you may be tempted to think that such ignorant and extremely self-centered and "screw everyone else who isn't me" individuals, where the whole world revolves around them, are typical Americans, they are not. The few trolls like that are just the embodiment of all the very worst...

However, the Dullta management - at least, many parts of it - does seem to share the same very US centric, myopic views and a high level of ignorance (there's far too many examples to even start listing, gems such as Bogota being in the [District of] Columbia that the DL site said some years ago, how Dullta totally ruined all the good will and reputation in Japan and elsewhere in Asia that NWA had, how it left it's Japanese CC holders with deactivated cards with no notice*, and so on), which are ultimately much to their determent. IMO, the Dullta mgmnt views would be more appropriate for a small regional "air lines" vs. a global airline that DL purports to be.

*all boneheaded DL decisions/handling of things that I recall reading about here on FT earlier, not independently verified
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Old Aug 4, 2015, 9:24 pm
  #139  
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Originally Posted by LETTERBOY
Foreign nationals are prohibited by law from donating to US political campaigns. I don't know the rules for foreign corporations, but I'd be extremely surprised if what you're suggesting is allowed to any great degree.
But foreign corporations can set up US subsidiaries, and those are people who can donate to US political campaigns (and fund PACs).
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Old Aug 4, 2015, 9:29 pm
  #140  
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Originally Posted by RaflW
Delta only cares if the awards will earn them more customers who are profitable. I don't see RA caring about US News rankings, it isn't a ranking that most people will notice or remember 48 hours from now.
The awards are certainly better than ads (or at least more credible), and Delta buys plenty of advertising.
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 1:57 am
  #141  
 
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Originally Posted by pbarnette
Did you miss where I used the phrases, "pretty much" and "most of the time"?
Did you miss where I used the comparison "like the complaint people make here about not seeing 25K awards and only 40K awards"?

They exist, but it's less than the 40K awards; and compared to AA/UA, less than their 25K equivalent.

Originally Posted by pbarnette
I am looking at what is available. In my experience and in my recent searches, those anytime awards are what is usually (e.g. the majority of the days) available...
As am I. For my AA/UA/DL comparison, the majority of the time I see AA or UA have 25K award seats while DL wants 40K. Even when DL lists 25K, it's a codeshare w/ AS, and DL metal is 40K.

Originally Posted by pbarnette
For example, looking at AA's calendar (I acknowledge there may be some gaps) from January to June, they show exactly one date with 2 award seats available in a premium cabin on LAX-SYD and nothing for the return. Shaving it to one premium cabin ticket, there look to be around 20 dates for the outbound over 6 months.

DL, on the other hand, is a veritable sea of low awards for much of the period. In February, for example, every day but two has two seats showing as being available on LAX-SYD in low. March, every day but two. April, every day. May, every day but one. June, every day but four.
Is that on DL or VA or KE? I doubt the lows were actually DL metal because the standard practice I see from DL is to keep their own award inventory at the high level and the partner awards are the ones showing low. I've checked the ones that are at 160K and none were actually DL.

I also don't believe you are comparing apples to apples because when I checked AA, there were plenty of seats available on using Anytime award inventory (i.e. full amount of miles which is basically pulled from revenue inventory). When I checked DL, all of the DL metal were pricing out @ 255K. I don't believe 255K for DL is actually their version of anytime seats.

Originally Posted by pbarnette
Cutting through the hyperbole and the often disingenuous references to extreme prices, DL isn't nearly as uncompetitive as some claim. To be clear, I'm not claiming that they are the best program for redemptions, nor that the recent changes aren't unfavorable, just that the verdant fields that are routinely proclaimed as existing "over there" are often much more brown than promised.
Based on my experience comparison shopping between DL, UA, and AA, DL has consistently been last in award availability. Obviously my experience alone does not indicate the singular truth, and neither does yours nor the pro-DL fans; but I do believe there is sufficient experience from the collective that makes the term Skypesos accurate.
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 2:11 am
  #142  
 
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Originally Posted by gooselee
But this assumes that many/most people make their paid flight choices based on the potential future redemption value of the RDM they will earn. This simply isn't true.

If you mostly fly DL because they offer the best product, routing, schedule, and price for the O/Ds you need to get to/from, the question you are asking is not what you can get for AA miles, but what you can get for DL miles.

If you fly so much that you have a diversified mileage portfolio across many programs, that gives you additional choice. But I cannot believe that the majority of airline customers are making their purchase decisions based on the mileage programs.
Let's be pragmatic about this... the reality is if you are a FF, you are likely flying for business, and not for leisure. Which makes loyalty secondary to operational requirements (since you are traveling for business after all, and it's likely the company footing the bill). After awhile, you build up enough miles/status that it becomes hard to fly other carriers because the perks are getting more valuable.

That means those who fly AA/UA/DL fly them because it works for them; and unless one is hub-captive, pledging loyalty to a single airline can wane when the redemption/loyalty side of the equation starts to become increasingly marginal.

At some point, you'll want to cash in those miles, and it will be a rude awakening. I know of several friends who went through this exact scenario... flew DL and liked DL... until they tried to take the family on a vacation using points, and started wondering what good were all those miles when it was costing twice as much to redeem as the other airline their coworkers were flying on. They compared notes and said screw it, went for a challenge and went with another carrier.
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 2:45 am
  #143  
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Originally Posted by CPMaverick
I am that person. Why shame on me? Virgin Australia is a great airline, and gives good RDM and MQM on Delta. And they reward Delta PLT and above with free lounge access, free bags, and free same-day flight changes.

I find the Diamond upgrade certs very useful for the long-hauls to the US and Skymiles can be better than Velocity in some ways.

So why shame on me? Or is it that you have no idea what it would be like to live in Australia and collect Skymiles? You are just ignorant of what you are slamming. Nice trolling.
I figured I would give this thread a week, come back and see how many of the same people have posted here. Sure enough, 11 or so pages and the same 10 to 12 people cant seem to get enough of wrongfully thinking that everything costs 830,000 skymiles.

@ CPMaverack, when did I ever use those words 'Shame on anyone? Hint...nowhere, so why put words into my mouth? I said most folks live outside of the SYD area and then I took the time to find and list plenty of examples of award flights ex SYD for travel after June 1st, 2016 in J that cost a very reasonable amount of miles.

But, there are people that read an article and based on that biased article, become believers. Truly astounding.

Random dates, June 2016. Tons of availability for SYD to DTW in coach for 115,000 miles. If you want D1, how does 255,000 miles sound? Plenty of dates for that to. Shall I go on?

As for your ridiculous, asinine comment of me being ignorant for what I am slamming, please describe to me in detail what exactly it is I am slamming? For living in SYD? Please, give me a break. Someone wake up on the wrong side of the bed yesterday? Just so happens, I never slammed anything other then the naysayers who think every reward is going to cost 830,000 miles ex SYD and other international destinations. I love the skymiles DL program for the same reasons you do and if anything, I supported the idea that they are and still will be very useful from other location other then originating from the good ole U. S. OF A. If you want to slam anyone for there ignorance, it should be the bumbling idiot that wrote that NY Times piece about skymiles.

Last edited by DL2SXM; Aug 5, 2015 at 4:47 am
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 3:10 am
  #144  
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Originally Posted by bubbashow
They are building brand loyalty for the RIGHT reasons...not because Freddy the Freeloader got to fly his family front cabin to Disneyworld.
You are on a roll bubba in this thread - keep 'em coming.

Freddy the Freeloader - I love it. ^
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 6:49 am
  #145  
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Originally Posted by gooselee
This +1,000. It continually amazes me how many people on FT fail to recognize that for the vast majority of passengers, the primary decision factors in what airline/flights are taken are aligned to routing, schedule, and price - NOT FFP rewards. The goal of air travel is transportation from A to B, not accruing an imaginary currency that could be taken away (not devalued, just straight taken away) at any given time.

Those rewards are nice, of course, but they are nothing more than the cherry on top of the icing on the cake.
I haven't seen people here argue that FT represent the majority of travelers. Sure you get some hyperbolic posts predicting DL's downfall will come as a result of SM devaluation, but those certainly aren't the mainstream of FT - it may strike a chord and stick in your mind, but it's on the fringe.

My advice: don't be amazed by people making decisions you don't agree with, life's too short to get stressed about that. I live in a state without a motorcycle helmet law and see lots of these guys screaming down the freeway, locks a flowin' (well they're usually bald) - at first my reaction was 'continual amazement' but eventually I realized there's nothing amazing about it. They were given a choice and they made it. Stupid choice? Perhaps. But why the hell should I care.
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 7:21 am
  #146  
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Originally Posted by luv2ctheworld
Let's be pragmatic about this... the reality is if you are a FF, you are likely flying for business, and not for leisure. Which makes loyalty secondary to operational requirements (since you are traveling for business after all, and it's likely the company footing the bill). After awhile, you build up enough miles/status that it becomes hard to fly other carriers because the perks are getting more valuable.

That means those who fly AA/UA/DL fly them because it works for them; and unless one is hub-captive, pledging loyalty to a single airline can wane when the redemption/loyalty side of the equation starts to become increasingly marginal.

At some point, you'll want to cash in those miles, and it will be a rude awakening. I know of several friends who went through this exact scenario... flew DL and liked DL... until they tried to take the family on a vacation using points, and started wondering what good were all those miles when it was costing twice as much to redeem as the other airline their coworkers were flying on. They compared notes and said screw it, went for a challenge and went with another carrier.
There's an easy solution: choose your flights based on operational requirements, and understand that the rewards are just auxiliary bonuses on top of that. From the parts of the world I can see, this is how most people operate. I'm including both the many 1-6x/year leisure travelers I know as well as virtually all of my colleagues who travel weekly or biweekly.

I actually find that all of the people I hear who are leaving one airline or another aren't doing so because they couldn't find an award using their miles - it's because the airline "wronged" them somehow (IDB'd them, lost their luggage, had rude CS, etc. - all operational instances). Even then, when the airline they are leaving has a nonstop flight at the right time for $100 less than a connecting flight on the competitor, they seem to get over those past experiences very quickly.

Originally Posted by k2
I haven't seen people here argue that FT represent the majority of travelers. Sure you get some hyperbolic posts predicting DL's downfall will come as a result of SM devaluation, but those certainly aren't the mainstream of FT - it may strike a chord and stick in your mind, but it's on the fringe.

My advice: don't be amazed by people making decisions you don't agree with, life's too short to get stressed about that. I live in a state without a motorcycle helmet law and see lots of these guys screaming down the freeway, locks a flowin' (well they're usually bald) - at first my reaction was 'continual amazement' but eventually I realized there's nothing amazing about it. They were given a choice and they made it. Stupid choice? Perhaps. But why the hell should I care.
You're probably right. For the record, my amazement doesn't stress me out at all. It's more entertaining than anything - similar to how I'll still occasionally stop for a few minutes on the cable news channels to see what kind of mess is being spewed out there.
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 8:37 am
  #147  
 
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Originally Posted by DL2SXM
I figured I would give this thread a week, come back and see how many of the same people have posted here. Sure enough, 11 or so pages and the same 10 to 12 people cant seem to get enough of wrongfully thinking that everything costs 830,000 skymiles.
I posted once.

Originally Posted by DL2SXM
@ CPMaverack, when did I ever use those words 'Shame on anyone? Hint...nowhere, so why put words into my mouth?
Looks like here to me:

Originally Posted by DL2SXM
if you are that less then .0001%, live in Australia and collect skymiles then shame on you.



Originally Posted by DL2SXM
As for your ridiculous, asinine comment of me being ignorant for what I am slamming, please describe to me in detail what exactly it is I am slamming?
See above.

Originally Posted by DL2SXM
Just so happens, I never slammed anything other then the naysayers who think every reward is going to cost 830,000 miles ex SYD and other international destinations. I love the skymiles DL program for the same reasons you do and if anything, I supported the idea that they are and still will be very useful from other location other then originating from the good ole U. S. OF A. If you want to slam anyone for there ignorance, it should be the bumbling idiot that wrote that NY Times piece about skymiles.
I think the NYT piece is well written. I agree that they could have been more balanced by at least stating that the 830k redemption was not typical. But it is a real redemption, and much higher than other airlines charge for their most expensive seats that are widely available. So it's a legitimate article in my opinion, and Delta is last in this area amongst US carriers.
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 8:38 am
  #148  
 
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As a NYC flyer, I prefer Delta, but....

My better half hails from Europe and after raising 3 kids all now going to college, I look back and have to thank Delta and Amex for permitting us the opportunity to travel to the in-laws at least once each year if not twice in some. All on award travel and mostly at low level. Before the internet, we would go to the local DL counter (they were great) and on 332nd day prior to departure, booked the tickets. When the website kicked in, we logged in right at midnight on the 332nd day. And in the ensuing years, got lucky, really lucky at times.

Which takes me to today. My wife and I were Facetiming while she was on a train and sitting next to another American with a fiancee from Europe. That lady was asking what is the most important aspect to keeping the relationship working from a technical and not personal standpoint. I told her that being able to visit family is key. Sadly, I suggested focusing travel on United (they have a good European network with LH) and picking up a credit card that earned UA points (Amex, my best friend in the world of banking/charging) does not work there. Those two elements will garner you the best access to stay close to family.

Most upsetting in all of this is that Amex is the really big loser after bailing DL out to the tune of billions. Yes, one can find awards at what we know to be a reasonable exchange, regardless of the existence of a millage chart, but the reality is that it is much more difficult for average Joe's to score a good flight. FWIW, if you are a DM and aren't complaining, good for you. But for the rest of us low life's, DL is no longer a good redemption value, especially if you are an Amex card enthusiast.

Let's face it. The planes are full, the stock is up, the management is happy. Loyalty is not as important. I just wish Amex would push a wee bit harder because the benefits there regarding travel on Delta are getting really slim.
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 8:59 am
  #149  
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Originally Posted by pbarnette
And, FWIW, I think this whole "this is a FF forum" nonsense that is trotted out routinely is beyond stupid. Moreover, I think those saying it know it. There is a lot of great information on this site that has nothing to do with FF programs. Indeed, I'd say the majority of the information on this site has nothing to do with FF programs. To use the "this is a FF forum" canard to try and stifle dissenting views is disingenuous BS. And you are better than that and you know it.

First I never said you or anyone else should not post here. I would never say that and you and the Mods know that. I get a lot of information from you and several others who are in the "I like what SM has become" camp. And yes, FT is about many useful things to people who, like it or not, must use air travel to manage their personal/business life. But I will point out that Flyertalk has lots of forums about all things travel. This particular forum is in the "Miles and Points" area of FT and specifically the Skymiles sub-forum. Its not shocking that there are people here who do care.

Why you are "amazed" that people would make flying decisions based on a FF program. For the general public I 100% agree with you but this is where our location matters. Here, in a forum for just the most avid (yuk) of the FF program zombies (and I call myself one), it is to be expected that the audience DOES care.

There are MANY who feel the program changes are not good. There are a few who LOVE the changes...but at the end of the day we are all here to discuss the Delta "Miles and Points" program. It is COMPLETLY understandable why when the vast majority of the people who are here to maximize their points are handed a change(s) that puts them worse off than they were last year they are not happy about it. They may or may not do something about it but certainly you can understand why there are some upset folks.

Just as you will say "whining" will not change a thing because Delta is making record profits I would say lecturing people about why a FF program is no way to pick an airline, in this particular space, is just as futile.
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Old Aug 5, 2015, 9:12 am
  #150  
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Originally Posted by avidflyer
Why you are "amazed" that people would make flying decisions based on a FF program. For the general public I 100% agree with you but this is where our location matters. Here, in a forum for just the most avid (yuk) of the FF program zombies (and I call myself one), it is to be expected that the audience DOES care.

There are MANY who feel the program changes are not good. There are a few who LOVE the changes...but at the end of the day we are all here to discuss the Delta "Miles and Points" program. It is COMPLETLY understandable why when the vast majority of the people who are here to maximize their points are handed a change(s) that puts them worse off than they were last year they are not happy about it. They may or may not do something about it but certainly you can understand why there are some upset folks.

Just as you will say "whining" will not change a thing because Delta is making record profits I would say lecturing people about why a FF program is no way to pick an airline, in this particular space, is just as futile.
I'm not surprised that the many in the FT crowd make purchase decisions based on the FFP. Not one bit. I'm also not surprised that many people here care about and are upset by any given change to a FFP.

But, especially since I tend to think the FT crowd is, as a whole, of better-than-average intelligence, I do find it surprising that I continue to see many posts where people are concluding that such-and-such airline will go down the drain due to its new FFP, thus implying that the FFP drives purchase decisions for a much wider swath of its customers. Perhaps it's actually just a handful of posters who post "loudly" and repeatedly - I'm guilty of not always look at who is posting each and every comment.

In this sense, I think you and I actually agree. My issue is not that people on FT care, it's that some people on FT seem to think that the rest of the world cares, as well.
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