717 headroom

Old Apr 18, 2015, 1:43 pm
  #61  
 
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Originally Posted by BiggAW
I'm getting PVD at 3M, logan at 31M, but still, WOW. I didn't realize how many people are going to Logan. It's kind of crazy, since except for the small urban ring around Boston proper, BDL, MHT and PVD are easier to get to for the entire rest of the state, depending on location, including much of the Boston Metro area itself. Plus, BOS is a cluster**** in terms of where to pahk the cah and how much it costs vs MHT and PVD.
I got all my info from the reported statistics page on each airport's website - also my numbers were domestic only for 2014. There were almost 5 million international passengers for BOS in 2014 giving you: 31.6 million

For a person without a car, the MBTA, even with all of its issues, is a great way to get to Logan with multiple options. I live in the north shore and would take the train to North Station and then MBTA to BOS for summer travel since I had a monthly pass when I was commuting to the city. There's also a few shuttle services that are fairly reasonable in price.

There's also "just" a few hospitals, institutions of higher learning, and lawyer/financial services that probably nudge those traffic numbers a bit higher that what YOU think they should be.

Now I do work in a location equidistant to MHT and BOS. There's a lack of non-stop at MHT and if you flew into MHT in the morning and traveled South on 93 or 3 you are probably going to hit Boston traffic as well. At least BOS gives you the better flight schedules.
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Old Apr 18, 2015, 2:42 pm
  #62  
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Originally Posted by adambisi
I got all my info from the reported statistics page on each airport's website - also my numbers were domestic only for 2014. There were almost 5 million international passengers for BOS in 2014 giving you: 31.6 million
Yeah, I was getting them from Wikipedia.

For a person without a car, the MBTA, even with all of its issues, is a great way to get to Logan with multiple options. I live in the north shore and would take the train to North Station and then MBTA to BOS for summer travel since I had a monthly pass when I was commuting to the city. There's also a few shuttle services that are fairly reasonable in price.
That's entirely true for the small inner core. If you don't have a car (or a cah as they say), you're not getting to MHT or PVD, and that makes BOS very convenient. That being said, the has very limited long-term parking out in the 'burbs, making it's service to the greater Boston area much more limited for long air or rail trips out of BOS. The Logan Express is an interesting contraption, it looks good for international travel. For domestic, it doesn't look worth it, by the time you're out in Framingham, it's quicker just to drive to MHT or PVD and pay to park.

There's also "just" a few hospitals, institutions of higher learning, and lawyer/financial services that probably nudge those traffic numbers a bit higher that what YOU think they should be.
There's tons of institutions in the urban core, but the counter-argument about businesses out on the 128 loop that would be better served by a car from PVD or MHT is just as valid.

Now I do work in a location equidistant to MHT and BOS. There's a lack of non-stop at MHT and if you flew into MHT in the morning and traveled South on 93 or 3 you are probably going to hit Boston traffic as well. At least BOS gives you the better flight schedules.
MHT and PVD have the same nonstop service every other airport has, to the respective airlines' big hubs, i.e. DTW, MSP, ATL, MDW, BWI (although that's useless for a single flight, only for hubbing elsewhere), and the respective hubs for other airlines. Wikipedia claims BOS is a hub for DL, but I'm not seeing that. JFK is a hub for DL (even though it shouldn't be a hub for anything). BOS seems to have way more service than you'd think the Boston metro area would garner just by population, but there are a lot of businesses and higher education institutions in Boston, as well as a relatively affluent population that probably flies around more per capita than other cities, other than maybe the NYC or DC areas.
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Old Apr 18, 2015, 3:09 pm
  #63  
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Originally Posted by BiggAW
BOS seems to have way more service than you'd think the Boston metro area would garner just by population, but there are a lot of businesses and higher education institutions in Boston, as well as a relatively affluent population that probably flies around more per capita than other cities, other than maybe the NYC or DC areas.
You don't seem to realize that the majority of air travel in the US is for business, not leisure.

Business travel means people on tighter schedules who more likely to be visiting city centers where, y'know, all those big, tall buildings housing businesses tend to be.
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Old Apr 18, 2015, 3:39 pm
  #64  
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Originally Posted by gooselee
You don't seem to realize that the majority of air travel in the US is for business, not leisure.

Business travel means people on tighter schedules who more likely to be visiting city centers where, y'know, all those big, tall buildings housing businesses tend to be.
Some is business, some is leisure. There are a lot of businesses on the 128 loop and out 90 as well.
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Old Apr 18, 2015, 4:42 pm
  #65  
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Originally Posted by BiggAW
There are a lot of businesses on the 128 loop and out 90 as well.
Of course there are.

And using that as your argument is a bit like saying you shouldn't cast a fishing line into the middle of a giant school of very big fish because there are a handful of smaller fish way over there.
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Old Apr 18, 2015, 6:04 pm
  #66  
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Originally Posted by gooselee
Of course there are.

And using that as your argument is a bit like saying you shouldn't cast a fishing line into the middle of a giant school of very big fish because there are a handful of smaller fish way over there.
Wha? I'm just surprised that the split isn't more even between BOS, PVD, and MHT, at least for domestic. Obviously BOS wins with international, since PVD and MHT's "international" flights are probably the daily turboprop to Toronto, like BDL and a few others.
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Old Apr 18, 2015, 7:24 pm
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1. Spousal Unit is 6'1" with a long torso and finds the 717s to be pretty comfortable.

2. If the WN 737 model is so wonderful, when do I get to take them to Paris or Tokyo?

3. If the WN model is so awesome, why won't its web site let me book a ticket between ECP and such podunk wastelands like Portland, Oregon? Does the company have something like Portlandia? (It's a horrible web site about trying to get there from here if you're starting out at an outstation and want to go some place other than Houston, BWI, or Nashville.)

4. I remember the OP offering up the same argument on another thread last year, and it took a fair amount of time to get it closed, even after I called them a communist wanting to impose state planning models on the system.
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Old Apr 18, 2015, 7:37 pm
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There are only two airlines that cover this country, DL and UA. WN does not fly to Delaware, Montana, or either of the Dakotas.
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Old Apr 18, 2015, 8:20 pm
  #69  
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Originally Posted by beachmouse
1. Spousal Unit is 6'1" with a long torso and finds the 717s to be pretty comfortable.
Good to know.

2. If the WN 737 model is so wonderful, when do I get to take them to Paris or Tokyo?
It's the be-all end-all to domestic US flying, that doesn't mean it's suited for long-haul international flying. That's where the 777 and 787 come into play.

3. If the WN model is so awesome, why won't its web site let me book a ticket between ECP and such podunk wastelands like Portland, Oregon? Does the company have something like Portlandia? (It's a horrible web site about trying to get there from here if you're starting out at an outstation and want to go some place other than Houston, BWI, or Nashville.)
Huh? Works fine for me. It gives me flights between those two locations. Their site handles connections at MDW just fine...

4. I remember the OP offering up the same argument on another thread last year, and it took a fair amount of time to get it closed, even after I called them a communist wanting to impose state planning models on the system.
LOL. A communist state.

Originally Posted by SJC ORD LDR
There are only two airlines that cover this country, DL and UA. WN does not fly to Delaware, Montana, or either of the Dakotas.
It's true that they don't cover a giant area in North Dakota or Montana. That's probably because those areas can't support economical commercial air service (i.e. 13 737's a day), because no one lives there.

Delaware is well served out of PHL and the big hub in BWI. Interestingly enough, their sole airline in Wilmington is Frontier, which is servicing Philly and Wilmington at their airport. It appears to basically by the other Philly airport, which is super smart on their part, since they are taking a page right out of Southwest's playbook and out-Southwesting Southwest.
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Old Apr 19, 2015, 9:10 am
  #70  
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Originally Posted by BiggAW
Wha? I'm just surprised that the split isn't more even between BOS, PVD, and MHT, at least for domestic. Obviously BOS wins with international, since PVD and MHT's "international" flights are probably the daily turboprop to Toronto, like BDL and a few others.
You're surprised because your logic and assumptions are faulty.

More people wanting to go to the city center = more people wanting to fly into the airport that actually serves it.

Remember that your original argument about metro Boston was to close BOS altogether and service the city center via PVD and MHT only. Similar to how you said that DCA and LGA should be shuttered and JFK de-hubbed...
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Old Apr 19, 2015, 12:47 pm
  #71  
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Originally Posted by gooselee
You're surprised because your logic and assumptions are faulty.

More people wanting to go to the city center = more people wanting to fly into the airport that actually serves it.

Remember that your original argument about metro Boston was to close BOS altogether and service the city center via PVD and MHT only. Similar to how you said that DCA and LGA should be shuttered and JFK de-hubbed...
WHOA... I never said BOS should be closed. I said that WN shouldn't have gone there because it's expensive and domestic traffic is just as easily served out of PVD and MHT. WN did make inroads into the metro Boston market without BOS for quite a while before they went into BOS (due to AirTran?).

I did say DCA should be completely shut down once the silver line to Dulles is finished, and I stand by that. It should be turned into green space, with a walking/running/biking trail and other recreational activities. Silver Airlines at Dulles should go bye-bye completely. United is a really tough one, as both IAD and EWR should be de-hubbed, but that would leave them with nothing in the eastern US.

I did NOT say LGA should be shut down, rather that DL should de-hub from JFK, get rid of their mini jets, and consolidate their LGA operations to JFK. LGA would still be there for WN, Frontier, and others, and in fact, I believe that it should be connected to the subway system via an AirTrain. However, their current plan makes no sense, it should go down the other direction, but that's another story for another day.

Without the mini jets, DL would have TONS of capacity to hub at MSP, DTW, and ATL, without needing JFK, except for service TO JFK.

ORD needs to be de-clogged by at least eliminating the mini jets. It really should be de-hubbed, as it's a congested nightmare that consistently tops the list for delays, but American doesn't have readily available alternatives like DL does. And WN should stay at MDW. One option for American would be to move back into US Airways' hub at PIT, which is an amazing airport, and has a ton of unutilized capacity.

Looking at all that, I wonder if eliminating mini jets would allow DL to consolidate to either DTW or MSP, and leave the other open for American or United, since both have incredible capacity, but aren't as big of destinations as ORD.

Meanwhile, MDW has some serious people congestion, but far less plane congestion, which is all that really matters, showing the efficiency of the Southwest model. It's at 21M a year, and that's just going to keep going up.
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Old Apr 19, 2015, 9:48 pm
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717 headroom

Sigh....never mind. I was just assuming that since a) WN is the end-all, be-all pinnacle of airline operations, and b) WN made a mistake by serving BOS, it would only logically follow that all other airlines should abandon BOS because it's such a poor business decision.

I'm sorry you will have to deal with mini-jets for the foreseeable future due to the needs and preferences of so many other travelers, and the profitability that those planes and routes provide to the airlines that use them.

Clearly, any perspective other than your own, even when based on empirical fact, will never be valid enough for your discerning mind.
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Old Apr 20, 2015, 5:03 am
  #73  
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Originally Posted by gooselee
Sigh....never mind. I was just assuming that since a) WN is the end-all, be-all pinnacle of airline operations, and b) WN made a mistake by serving BOS, it would only logically follow that all other airlines should abandon BOS because it's such a poor business decision.
No, I didn't say that. It's big enough to support mainline service from other carriers. However, I would say that domestic traffic should be more evenly split between the three Boston airports.

I'm sorry you will have to deal with mini-jets for the foreseeable future due to the needs and preferences of so many other travelers, and the profitability that those planes and routes provide to the airlines that use them.
The thing is, there aren't "so many other travelers". The vast majority of travelers don't fly to regional-only routes to BFE, and would rather that the major hubs be de-clogged than for someone who is too lazy to drive an hour or three can have absurdly over-priced air service. And yes, this means cutting the closest commercial air service to where I live, at HVN. It shouldn't have commercial air service. If people are too lazy to drive to BDL, PVD, or take public transit to LGA/JFK then they don't deserve air service.

The remaining regional flights are on routes that also provide mainline service, like to the BDLs and PVDs of the world, and those flights can be more efficiently consolidated into fewer mainline flights, as WN has proven very successfully.

The only reason that they are profitable is because they are so absurdly overpriced. It's not efficient to operate commercial air service if you can't drop the equivalent of 13 737's in a day, and it never will be. Overhead is too high. Because they are so absurdly overpriced, only a tiny minority of people can/will use them, with the vast majority going to their nearest big mainline airport for good airfares.

Even just cutting everything smaller than a 717 out of the US commercial system tomorrow and adding some more mainline flights to compensate, without any other necessary changes, would serve to massively de-clog the airports in the US. Add in repositioning hubs, eliminating assigned seats and first class, turning planes around faster, and the whole system would function far better for more people with less congestion than it does today.

Clearly, any perspective other than your own, even when based on empirical fact, will never be valid enough for your discerning mind.
The empirical fact is that most people don't fly to BFE, and that regional mini jets are clogging up the hubs. Heck, the hubs have even grown to be too large because of the mini-jets and the inefficient business models. With WN turning jets around in 30 minutes and sending them back out, and with every jet carrying 143+ passengers, they are hubbing out of MDW. Meanwhile, DL is hubbing out of DTW, which is several times larger, because they have a ton of mini jets and inefficient operations that leaves planes at the gates for more than 30 minutes.
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Old Apr 20, 2015, 5:05 am
  #74  
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HVN is "served" by a Dash-8 turboprop, which is even worse than the mini jets.
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Old Apr 20, 2015, 5:10 am
  #75  
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HVN is such a joke that United stopped serving it with planes and now serves New Haven out of EWR via Amtrak. US Airways has their partner "serving" it. Hopefully the new commuter rail and bus connection to BDL will finally put the nail in the coffin for that idiotic service.
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