hikouki

In general, how much better (or worse) is the business class of AF and KL vs DL?

Prior to Covid, I have flown D1 almost exclusively across the Pacific, and I like the A350 suites the best. I am SEA-based and the A330neo seats are acceptable. Service is alright, but not exceptional. Food, prior to covid was hit or miss.

Since the pandemic, I decided to become a free agent, but open to still flying some SkyTeam members. I just completed a roundtrip transpacific on KE. I may be in the minority here but I seem to prefer the DL seats because of privacy. KE seat is somewhat too firm for me. There is no place to securely set a CPAP device. Cabin is warm. Food is consistently better but options are quite repetitive and boring. Service is 'better' but somewhat robotic.

Pre-pandemic, I have flown on CI but only between Taiwan and Japan. Cleanliness, food option and quality, as well as service were all exceptional. Then again, this was on a competitive route with a very discerning market. I am not sure how they are longhaul post-pandemic.

(I am planning on trying ANA for my next transpacific flight.)

I am planning a trip to Europe and I wonder how the business class of VS, KL and AF compare to that of DL and KE?

I know I said that I am a free agent, but many SkyTeam flights to EU seem to offer competitive fares for the routes I am looking at for 2024.

FabCW

For me it depends on the equipment:
AF A350 or B777-300 retrofitted and DL A350 or A339 are my favorites for business class experience.

TechMarauder

I generally defer to AF/KL vs DL when I have the opportunity. First, I don't care about the "suites" on DL. Second, while still hit or miss, the food and service is generally better and more consistent. At the end of the day, though, if you're limited on time/budget, it will come down to schedule and cost.

IggySD

For trans-Atlantic I’d rank them AF>KL~DL. For me AF seats are by far the best (don’t think the fly the 2-2-2 layout to US / CAN but may be wrong). DL seats are pretty awful, including the suites (it’s a 2-3 foot high door that anyone walking by can easily see over and watch you laying in your coffin, I consider it “privacy”, but if that’s what is important for you then DL is going to be the best.) KL 777 is bad but the 787 is rather nice. However have had several KL flights the past few months and the food is mostly inedible, DL is occasionally better and AF is usually decent if unmemorable. I have incredibly low expectations of airplane food, but am still often disappointed by all three carriers (and most others to be fair). Service I’d probably give a slight edge to KL for consistently good, with DL having the widest range from great to horrible.

It really depends what you consider most important, but they’re all mediocre enough I would choose whichever is cheapest (or KL if you want to collect houses). Or pick one you haven’t flown yet to give it a shot and make your own opinion, I’m sure some people love the food on KL and hate the seats on AF.

paul21

It's pretty subjective but I would say for TATL:

KL has friendly service always happy
AF has better wine and food especially wine
DL has better nonstop routes otherwise average
VS has more "fun" cabins and probably the best J lounges in my opinion (note priority pass access is not the same experience)


You'll see what you get on the seat for each aircraft to make the trade offs there, along with the cabin pressure benefits of the A350 and B787. The service routines are pretty much the same: meal and drinks after take off followed by a very rare cabin walkthrough then second meal service before landing. AF and VS have the advantage of open snacks and alcohol area so you don't need to find a FA for a drink. KL just has snacks and water, and DL sometimes the same.


Personally I like to book a 3 hour layover in Europe inbound and shower in the lounge before heading to my destination arriving nearer to check in time. In that case AF is a bit better than KL both because of the lounges and the on board offering for a domestic EU flight. Domestic KL food is not as good and the wine is poor but no big deal for a shorter flight. If you do go KL note the intra EU lounge 25 in AMS has terrible showers.

On the return I usually take the last westbound flight which is usually KL or AF because DL wants their flights to feed connections and keeps them a bit earlier.

Still I would pick DL if they had a nonstop for a fair price and just pay for arrival showers or day hotels.

bsagator

Soft Product: VS>AF>DL>KL
Virgin Atlantic has the best lounges, the friendliest staff, the best service, and excellent food on board. AF is hit or miss, better service, can sometimes be surly. DL is entirely crew dependent. I've had my best experiences, and my worst experiences on DL. Food is pretty bad. I find KL service brutish, food rubbish, and lounges severely lacking.

Hard Product: KL 781>DL A359> DL A333NEO> KL772/3(old)> AF A359> KL 789> VS A351(window)> AF 773(old)> DL A332/3> DL 764> DL 763> VS 789

I'm 6'6 with broad shoulders. I find the most comfortable seat on the old KL 772/3, even though you have a seat mate, and that's why it's not #1. There is a big difference between the KL 78x and 789, and I find the 78x much better. I do like the DL suites, albeit they're a little tight. The VS A351 would be much better, if they had more privacy. It's crazy to me how they didn't fully enclose the middle seats from each other. The VS 789 is the worst modern business class seat I've flown. Total lack of privacy, super narrow, impossible to store anything, and you need to stand up in order to make it into a bed. Avoid the VS789 at all costs. I've read their new A333 NEO suite is nice, but haven't tried it yet.

jinabe

Hi there,

I usually fly to Spain plus one or two EU locations a year from Tokyo, and for European flights, I prefer KL>AF. Facility-wise DL is slightly better. Service-wise, I find KL/AF are generally more cordial and attentive than DL. Overall, not nuch of a difference.

1. AMS is conveniently located, organized, and has a good lounge. CDG is a confusing place during tansfers.
2. KL/AF business seats are less than those of Delta One, but both are comfortable enough that I generally have a sound sleep, which is the main reason I fly business. One of the few times that I appreciate my 5-6" height.
3. Both KL/AF in-flight services are generally friendly and attentive, but I have to admit I am a sucker for those Delft House.
4. Meals -- I could care less. I'd rather eat on the ground and get some rest.

I understand what you mean by "robotic" on KL flights. As soon as I finish a glass of beer, they come rushing in and pour some more. Nice for them to do this, but feels like I am beng monitored/watched at all time.

flyerCO

It depends on aircraft. For seats, I prefer the

1. KLM 787 the best (along with KLM 773that have been upgraded to 1-2-1 seats).
2. AF you can end up on any of a mix of seats, even for same aircraft type. However AF A350/787 are next, along with AF 777s (I don't believe any have the old J anymore).
3. then DL A339, DL A350, DL 767-400 A333/2,
4. Finally last, KLM 777 (unmodded 2-2-2) and DL 767-300

Food

1. DL/AF (depends on what meal is and amount of food (DL generally offers more food).
2. KL meals aren't bad. However they are small and can be quite unexpected flavors. On US flights they've gotten better. However any other are lacking IMO. Note night flights will not have a mid-flight meal/snack regardless of length of flight. Thus say AMS-SIN you can be quite hungry when land.

sydneyracquelle

We are flying KLM business (KLM’s first class) on a Boeing 787-10. Where would this plane fit in your hierarchy above? Thank you.

bsagator

First, I wrote it as KL781 above. It's just comfortable for me.

flyerCO

787-10 is 781.

I know some like the user above like the 10 better. However I like the 9 as it has air vents. Otherwise it's the same seat with some minor differences.

KLM frequently subs 787-10 for 787-9 and v.v.

ralph4878

AF's new J seats and cabins are really outstanding, on top of the already great soft product, on the 777; solid on the 787.
I love KL's quirkiness, but YRMV re: the food (I've had some weird meals on the carrier!). Cabins and seats are comfortable on their newly-refreshed planes.
Typically, I avoid VS unless I can get a flight on one of their A350s...haven't flown their new A330s yet.
I like Delta One quite a bit, especially as compared to UA or AA. That said, at 6'3" tall, I find the seats to be incredibly low to the floor. Still, I am a Platinum for a reason, and even on the older 767s, the "new" Delta One seats and cabins are solid in my mind; the A350 and A330neos are great, too. As for soft product, the IFE and food on DL are great, IMHO, as compared to UA and AA...but I'll take AF's of VS's catering over DL's.
Regardless of how the above makes you feel, keep in mind the airport you might be connecting through!! If you are connecting through CDG or AMS, the experience may change your mind on the journey (although I have never had issues connecting in AMS, it is big...and CDG is kind of a clusterf*$%). You likely won't be connecting through LHR if you're traveling to Europe since VS doesn't have any connectivity to other destinations on the continent, but if you're heading to Africa, for example, the connections are pretty smooth.

AntonS

For me AF>DL>KL

AF has improved soft product in J in recent years and with new cabin layouts it’s one of the best overall J products in the world, in my opinion.

KL is a low cost sibling of AF. Unacceptable seating on half of the fleet, is 777 (but 787 Ok) and substandard food. KL crews are nice, but it doesn’t make up for shortcomings.

TATLTAIL

Obviously, much of this comes down to your own cultural and individual expectations. As a bilingual native French/Flemish speaker also fluent in Italian, now splitting time between the US and Italy (and thus doing far too much flying), I have a possibly distinct experience on DL, KL, AF and even VS (not to mention AZ, although they are barely in and likely soon leaving SkyTeam). FWIW, my thoughts...
DL: excellent operational reliability but highly variable otherwise. Acceptable-good hard product (767-400, 330-200/-300), good-very good (330-neo, 350), terrible-avoid-at-all-cost (767-300); soft product is a mixed bag, often depending on crew and station - better quality food ex-Europe and from SEA, hit-or-miss from JFK/BOS, pretty dire ex-ATL/MSP/DTW, wine is pretty dire no matter where you depart; crews are also variable - 50% chance of cabin staff that doesn't care (esp. ex-JFK) or is a few cards short of a deck, 50% chance of really stellar crew and service. Hubs in SEA, LAX and ATL function well, acceptable at DTW and MSP, JFK-T4. Lounges are pretty terrible and definitely the worst of the pack, perhaps only matched by KL.
AF: solid operations and generally a better experience. Good all around hard product (I see very little difference in the new/refreshed 773, 772 and 359 cabins vis-à-vis prior "best"; have oddly yet to be on their 787-9); soft product is much better than others, both in terms of wine and food; service is generally good to outstanding, but this may be as a Francophone (I notice some crew treat non-French speakers differently, although far from the majority), although had a truly dismal crew on a mid-December JFK-CDG flight (these things happen and it was more than compensated by an outstanding one a few weeks later); lounges are very good, but only at CDG; I know CDG like my pocket and can do a 30 minute connect from Schengen to non-Schengen blindfolded after no sleep and too much champagne, that said that it can be a large morass for many (pro tip: follow the signs like a rat in a maze and ask for help from staff with tight connections). Word of warning - in/out of JFK they use Terminal 1, which is among the worst anywhere in the world (and I've seen quite a lot on all five continents). TBF, I don't think it's AF's fault, but still best avoided.
KL: bottom of the barrel on all counts and I will do whatever I can to avoid them. Hard product is a gamble, as have said others (787-1 is good, 787-9 ok, 772/773 horrible, avoid the 330); soft product reflects the food "culture" of the Netherlands, i.e. one that makes the UK look sophisticated - if you can wash it down with some (probably cheap and Australian) wine, you're lucky; service is... Dutch, a bit robotically professional but also not as variable as DL, being a native Flemish speaker doesn't help and indeed has led to being talked down to on more than one occasion (I just use English with them now); AMS used to be efficient but has gone into a nosedive and now seems to be worse than FRA - hardly a compliment; KL lounges are pretty dismal and nearly always overcrowded, zoo-like and anything but restful.
VS: small and quirky by comparison, but can be worth it if schedules align. Hard product is VERY variable (I actually like the old 330-300s and 787-9s for the lack of coffin-like beds, but these are not to many folks' liking; the new 330-900 is quite nice and 350s are okay); soft product is pretty good, although I have found the food hit-or-miss; service is one of their strong points and I've never had anything but good-excellent cabin crew; LHR is definitely not for everyone and they don't do much for onward connections in Europe, except to other SkyTeam hubs via partners (which is not terribly seamless); some of the best lounges anywhere and it's nice to have the arrivals thing in LHR.
AZ (not that this was asked for, but since we're on the topic): a basket case that may improve with LH takeover, but honestly I won't bet on it. Hard product the result of random acquisitions and takeovers, small fleet and lots of substitutions, so it doesn't really matter what you sign up for in terms of layout/aircraft - top this with a lack of reliability and you understand why anyone with choices avoids them for long haul; soft product is actually decent on long haul and on-par with AF within Europe, they do tend to have good wine on long flights; service is actually better now, oddly, but again it probably helps to speak Italian; FCO is a great connection point and doesn't deserve its reputation (much improved with the new terminal); lounges are actually not bad in FCO, all others are contracted out.

T-15.01

As others have noted it can be variable based on equipment, route, and crew. Depends on preference to the pre departure experience, food and wine on board and what you do on board can be a big aspect, too.

I've just completed 4 flights in late December with Delta (A330), KLM (787-10, 777-300) and AF (777-300). All business class. I worked on one flight and therefore didn't need the bed. I find KLM to be consistently the best for me, all considered. Depending on connection times I will book AF or KLM as I prefer both ahead of Delta on most long haul routes. Any changes I've needed to make I contact Delta and they're able to modify as I go, and the airport issues sighted at CDG haven't been an issue for me.

Because of the variability, this isn't a 3 way comparison but more likely a 10-12 way comparison, with the added dice roll that is crew. Best aircraft seat with a great pre departure lounge can be all quickly forgotten if the crew are salty.

I specifically booked KLM in September because of the aircraft type (787-10) and, they switched it to 777 which I don't personally prefer. I had a specific schedule and couldn't delay to get the plane I wanted. Sometimes the best laid plans go awry.