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Old Jul 22, 11, 7:35 pm   #1
 
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Layover and Stopover Rules

Looking for some general information on Delta's reward booking stopover and layover rules.

There are four cities:
A - origin
B - random city that is a connection on a published fare between A and D
C - random city that is not a connection on a published fare between A and D. However it is a connection on a published fare between B and D.
D - destination

Let's pretend for a minute that layovers are not allowed. In this case, I understand the stopover rule to be: You can stop over at a city that is part of a published route between your origin and your destination. So you can do A-B-D here but not A-C-D, at least that is my understanding.

Now let's add layovers into the mix. Am I allowed to fly from A-B, layover in B, and then go B-C-D with a stopover in C? In other words, does the layover "reset" the origin city and allow me to access other stopover cities?

Thanks.
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Old Jul 22, 11, 7:48 pm   #2
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Without specific city names your questions can't be answered easily.

Also, some of the rules are slgihtly different for domestic than for international and you don't give a clue as to that either.
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Old Jul 22, 11, 7:48 pm   #3
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrequentFlyer9000 View Post
Looking for some general information on Delta's reward booking stopover and layover rules.

There are four cities:
A - origin
B - random city that is a connection on a published fare between A and D
C - random city that is not a connection on a published fare between A and D. However it is a connection on a published fare between B and D.
D - destination

Let's pretend for a minute that layovers are not allowed. In this case, I understand the stopover rule to be: You can stop over at a city that is part of a published route between your origin and your destination. So you can do A-B-D here but not A-C-D, at least that is my understanding.

Now let's add layovers into the mix. Am I allowed to fly from A-B, layover in B, and then go B-C-D with a stopover in C? In other words, does the layover "reset" the origin city and allow me to access other stopover cities?

Thanks.
Was going to answer but it got too confusing...
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Old Jul 22, 11, 7:59 pm   #4
 
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I think we already tried to answer your questions back in this thread from yesterday, in which you posted all the details. You're basically repeating the point I was making to you in that thread.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta...ss-reward.html

The Points Guy has a good summary, although there's plenty of reading if you search FT on booking awards.
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Old Jul 22, 11, 8:18 pm   #5
 
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Originally Posted by sheremetyevo View Post
I think we already tried to answer your questions back in this thread from yesterday, in which you posted all the details. You're basically repeating the point I was making to you in that thread.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta...ss-reward.html

The Points Guy has a good summary, although there's plenty of reading if you search FT on booking awards.
That previous post was a bit different, although my experience in booking that flight was the impetus for this thread. I ended up doing a stopover in a city that is part of a published route, and could not do one in a city that was not part of a published route. However, layovers were not involved. Layovers are the key to my question.

My question is, can you book a stopover in a city that is not on a published route between the origin and the destination if you strategically use layovers. I've read The Points Guys' post on Delta stopovers several times but he does not touch upon this issue. His sample itinerary does not encounter this topic.

I think this is quite important as it determines whether the user can pick and choose his stopovers via creative layover selection, or if he is stuck with one or two stopover possibilities that are a part of the origin>destination published route.

Sorry if this is confusing, but if I am explaining my question clearly enough, you will notice it is actually very important in terms of reward flight flexibility.

Thanks again!
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Old Jul 22, 11, 8:22 pm   #6
 
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Originally Posted by FrequentFlyer9000 View Post
No, that previous post is completely different, although my experience in booking that flight was the impetus for this thread. I ended up doing a stopover in a city that is part of a published route, and could not do one in a city that was not part of a published route. However, layovers were not involved. Layovers are the key to my question.

My question is, can you book a stopover in a city that is not on a published route between the origin and the destination if you strategically use layovers. I've read The Points Guys' post on Delta stopovers several times but he does not touch upon this issue. His sample itinerary does not encounter this topic.

I think this is quite important as it determines whether the user can pick and choose his stopovers via creative layover selection, or if he is stuck with one or two stopover possibilities that are a part of the origin>destination published route.

Sorry if this is confusing, but if I am explaining my question clearly enough, you will notice it is actually very important in terms of reward flight flexibility.

Thanks again!

As far as I know, there's no difference between a stopover and a layover in the routing rules. Someone else correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the only difference between the two is stopover is > 24 hours, and layover is <24 hours or involves the next available flight.

None of the airlines on your itinerary (KLM, AF, DL, OK) offer published fares that involve a stopover/layover in Oslo (aka City C).
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Old Jul 22, 11, 8:26 pm   #7
 
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Originally Posted by sheremetyevo View Post
As far as I know, there's no difference between a stopover and a layover in the routing rules. Someone else correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the only difference between the two is stopover is > 24 hours, and layover is <24 hours or involves the next available flight.
Thanks. That is interesting because now I completely do not understand The PointsGuy's sample itinerary in a post related to the one you quoted from his blog. See here.

He mentions he could have hypothetically done this itinerary:

JFK – Paris (stop), Paris – Madrid (destination), Barcelona – Paris – Montreal (22 hours in Montreal), Montreal – JFK.

My read on it:
JFK - Paris - Madrid makes perfect sense. I am sure CDG is a published connection from JFK to Madrid on SkyTeam. The open jaw between Madrid and Barcelona is also fine. Here is where it stops making sense, and it is possible TPG made an honest mistake:

Barcelona - Paris - Montreal - JFK does not make sense. From Barcelona to JFK, I can see CDG being a published connection, but not both CDG and Montreal. I could not find that route, and it doesn't make sense regardless.

So how did he add Montreal as a layover if the same rules apply to stopovers and layovers? Thanks.

P.S. Did not see your post edit adding the Oslo point until now, but believe me, this is a general question. I'm not longer worrying about Oslo, as that was a lost cause. I do not think there are any SkyTeam awards that use Oslo as a connection between City A and Zagreb, so the point is moot in that specific case.
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Old Jul 22, 11, 8:34 pm   #8
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrequentFlyer9000 View Post
Thanks. That is interesting because now I completely do not understand The PointsGuy's sample itinerary in a post related to the one you quoted from his blog. See here.

He mentions he could have hypothetically done this itinerary:

JFK Paris (stop), Paris Madrid (destination), Barcelona Paris Montreal (22 hours in Montreal), Montreal JFK.

My read on it:
JFK - Paris - Madrid makes perfect sense. I am sure CDG is a published connection from JFK to Madrid on SkyTeam. The open jaw between Madrid and Barcelona is also fine. Here is where it stops making sense, and it is possible TPG made an honest mistake:

Barcelona - Paris - Montreal - JFK does not make sense. From Barcelona to JFK, I can see CDG being a published connection, but not both CDG and Montreal. I could not find that route, and it doesn't make sense regardless.

So how did he add Montreal as a layover if the same rules apply to stopovers and layovers? Thanks.

P.S. Did not see your post edit adding the Oslo point until now, but believe me, this is a general question. I'm not longer worrying about Oslo, as that was a lost cause. I do not think there are any SkyTeam awards that use Oslo as a connection between City A and Zagreb, so the point is moot in that specific case.
Yeah, I saw that TPG post too and didn't understand how that works. Hoping someone else can chime in here....
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Old Jul 22, 11, 8:38 pm   #9
 
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My guess is that the last part of TPGs trip is a valid AF routing.
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Old Jul 22, 11, 8:38 pm   #10
 
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I think adding an example will help explain my question.

Let's say I want to go from BOS to ZAG. The only published routes I can find are through AMS or through CDG. Using stopover logic, only AMS or CDG can be used as a stopover on this leg.

Here are the questions:

Let's say I make CDG a layover. There are flights from CDG thru PRG to ZAG. Since I have used CDG as a layover, can I now stopover in Prague since it is a published route between CDG and ZAG?

I think that is the clearest way to ask it. Apologies for my lack of clarity before. You can see how being allowed to do this kind of layover trick would greatly expand the possibilities for stopover cities on a trip.
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Old Jul 22, 11, 8:38 pm   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrequentFlyer9000 View Post
Thanks. That is interesting because now I completely do not understand The PointsGuy's sample itinerary in a post related to the one you quoted from his blog. See here.

He mentions he could have hypothetically done this itinerary:

JFK – Paris (stop), Paris – Madrid (destination), Barcelona – Paris – Montreal (22 hours in Montreal), Montreal – JFK.

My read on it:
JFK - Paris - Madrid makes perfect sense. I am sure CDG is a published connection from JFK to Madrid on SkyTeam. The open jaw between Madrid and Barcelona is also fine. Here is where it stops making sense, and it is possible TPG made an honest mistake:

Barcelona - Paris - Montreal - JFK does not make sense. From Barcelona to JFK, I can see CDG being a published connection, but not both CDG and Montreal. I could not find that route, and it doesn't make sense regardless.

So how did he add Montreal as a layover if the same rules apply to stopovers and layovers? Thanks.

P.S. Did not see your post edit adding the Oslo point until now, but believe me, this is a general question. I'm not longer worrying about Oslo, as that was a lost cause. I do not think there are any SkyTeam awards that use Oslo as a connection between City A and Zagreb, so the point is moot in that specific case.
I think the more accepted terms are stopover and connection. Montreal is a connecting city because it is <24 hours. You don't always have to use a logical (to you or me) routing. Thus YUL works in his case.

I know domestically someone did something like BOS-DCA (stopover)-DTW-IND in one direction and that was OK too even though DCA is not a hub, etc.

Specific cities is key in trying to figure out rules. A/B/C/D just doesn't cut it. Yesterday I booked an award ticket MSP-SEA-JNU (destination)-SIT (stopover)-SEA-MSP. I had to use the non stop SIT-SEA flight on the return in order for this to work for 25K miles. I also had to be sure my connection in SEA on the outbound was <4 hours which was a trick. The connection I saw online and asked on the phone to book came back with an error. The later SEA-JNU flight increased the mileage since the SEA layover was >4 hours. After a talk with online support, and after they "long sold" the AS flight, it all worked out.
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Old Jul 22, 11, 8:43 pm   #12
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrequentFlyer9000 View Post
Thanks. That is interesting because now I completely do not understand The PointsGuy's sample itinerary in a post related to the one you quoted from his blog. See here.

He mentions he could have hypothetically done this itinerary:

JFK Paris (stop), Paris Madrid (destination), Barcelona Paris Montreal (22 hours in Montreal), Montreal JFK.

My read on it:
JFK - Paris - Madrid makes perfect sense. I am sure CDG is a published connection from JFK to Madrid on SkyTeam. The open jaw between Madrid and Barcelona is also fine. Here is where it stops making sense, and it is possible TPG made an honest mistake:

Barcelona - Paris - Montreal - JFK does not make sense. From Barcelona to JFK, I can see CDG being a published connection, but not both CDG and Montreal. I could not find that route, and it doesn't make sense regardless.

So how did he add Montreal as a layover if the same rules apply to stopovers and layovers? Thanks.

P.S. Did not see your post edit adding the Oslo point until now, but believe me, this is a general question. I'm not longer worrying about Oslo, as that was a lost cause. I do not think there are any SkyTeam awards that use Oslo as a connection between City A and Zagreb, so the point is moot in that specific case.


BCN - PARIS on AF

PARIS - MONTREAL on AF

MONTREAL - JFK on DL

what part don't you understand?
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Old Jul 22, 11, 8:45 pm   #13
 
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Originally Posted by fti View Post
You don't always have to use a logical (to you or me) routing. Thus YUL works in his case.
+1
For an example of a totally illogical but legal award fare, I once booked a fare BOS-DTW-NRT-HKG(destination, open jaw)-PVG-NRT-PDX(stopover)-ATL-EWR-BOS.
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Old Jul 22, 11, 8:45 pm   #14
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aubreyfromwheaton View Post
BCN - PARIS on AF

PARIS - MONTREAL on AF

MONTREAL - JFK on DL

what part don't you understand?
Perhaps not the best example as it does not feature any stopovers on the way home. My example in my previous post is the best way to ask the question:

Let's say I want to go from BOS to ZAG. The only published routes I can find are through AMS or through CDG. Using stopover logic, only AMS or CDG can be used as a stopover on this leg.

Here is the question:

Let's say I make CDG a layover. There are flights from CDG thru PRG to ZAG. Since I have used CDG as a layover, can I now stopover in Prague since it is a published route between CDG and ZAG?

I think that is the clearest way to ask it. Apologies for my lack of clarity before. You can see how being allowed to do this kind of layover trick would greatly expand the possibilities for stopover cities on a trip.
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Old Jul 22, 11, 8:48 pm   #15
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrequentFlyer9000 View Post
Perhaps not the best example as it does not feature any stopovers on the way home. My example in my previous post is the best way to ask the question:

Let's say I want to go from BOS to ZAG. The only published routes I can find are through AMS or through CDG. Using stopover logic, only AMS or CDG can be used as a stopover on this leg.

Here is the question:

Let's say I make CDG a layover. There are flights from CDG thru PRG to ZAG. Since I have used CDG as a layover, can I now stopover in Prague since it is a published route between CDG and ZAG?

I think that is the clearest way to ask it. Apologies for my lack of clarity before. You can see how being allowed to do this kind of layover trick would greatly expand the possibilities for stopover cities on a trip.
Yes. It's not a "trick", it's just the way it is.
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