Can DL do a better job resuming flights after WX cancellations?
Dec 21, 2009, 4:24 pm
#61
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 839
DLBeno,
You wrote the following: "And it's actually not my job to come up with a better plan. I'm just an out-station supervisor...I, in fact, have no control over what OCC does in ATG."
Sure it is not your job but you challenged your customers to come up with such a plan. So it is not your job, but it is your customers job, it is your management's job...anyway, it is someone else job but not your job. I see. Again, your comment reveals the nature of your business culture: finger pointing: "Not my job".
Stop talking about working 24 hours, would you? So what?? In this economy, we all work extra hard, me too, so do other customers. Simply working 24 hours doesn't mean you are good. If you cannot keep up with the competition, you still lose.
Stop telling me OCC, ATG, blah blah blah. It's your job to figure out how to deal with them. As a traveler, who cares about your internal operational details? The only thing we care is that we pay for your service and you deliver it. That's it. If you fail, you lose.
Battling this winter storm requires skills, experience and professionalism. This competition shows Continental and bunch of other airlines are the clear WINNERS, but you guys are the big LOSERS. That's the only thing we as travellers care about and we will definitely keep that in mind the next time we book tickets.
You wrote the following: "And it's actually not my job to come up with a better plan. I'm just an out-station supervisor...I, in fact, have no control over what OCC does in ATG."
Sure it is not your job but you challenged your customers to come up with such a plan. So it is not your job, but it is your customers job, it is your management's job...anyway, it is someone else job but not your job. I see. Again, your comment reveals the nature of your business culture: finger pointing: "Not my job".
Stop talking about working 24 hours, would you? So what?? In this economy, we all work extra hard, me too, so do other customers. Simply working 24 hours doesn't mean you are good. If you cannot keep up with the competition, you still lose.
Stop telling me OCC, ATG, blah blah blah. It's your job to figure out how to deal with them. As a traveler, who cares about your internal operational details? The only thing we care is that we pay for your service and you deliver it. That's it. If you fail, you lose.
Battling this winter storm requires skills, experience and professionalism. This competition shows Continental and bunch of other airlines are the clear WINNERS, but you guys are the big LOSERS. That's the only thing we as travellers care about and we will definitely keep that in mind the next time we book tickets.
Safe travels and I really do hope you find what you want in life.
Best.
-b-
Dec 21, 2009, 5:23 pm
#63
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 6
To sxf24
"Listen, I understand criticizing rude service from frontline employees, but expecting them to develop an operational recovery plan for a major winter storm is absurd. The OCC, ATG, blah blah blah that you so caustically dismiss or the people that determine the how/where/when aircraft and crews operate. They are working 24/7 to try and get every person to their destination. If you have an idea for how they can do their job better, please share."
sxf24, you obviously didn't read DLBeno's comments and my responses completely before you posted your comment, did you??? Do you work for DL? Were you trained how to read from and listen to your customers??? Did your training classes teach you that you don't need to get a complete picture before you jump into conclusion?
It is DLBeno, a DL employee, who posted a rediculous comment initially and challenged DL's customers to come up with a "better plan" to handle this winter storm. It's also DLBeno who said "it is not my job to come up with a better plan" in another comment.
If you think it is absurd for "frontline employees...expecting them to develop an operational recovery plan for a major winter storm", then it is INSANE for a DL employee like DLBeno to challenge DL's customers to come up with such a plan!
As to your question "If you have an idea for how they can do their job better, please share.", my answers: please, improve your company culture. By reading you guys comments in the past two days, I realize it is your culture that caused the problem. To be more specific:
- Stop pointing fingers, to weather, or to other people; take personal responsibilities;
- Don't tell your customers "it's not my job to come up with a better plan" as DLBeno did. This is a terrible business culture. Learn how to share success AND failure with your company. If DL fails, all its employee fail and you guys all have to go home. It's true you cannot make decision, but as a responsible employee, you can at least give feedback and suggestions to your management team. Just don't tell people "it's not my job to...". Never ever say that.
- SHOW RESPECT to your customers. Listen to your customers before you speak and get complete picture of what's going on from all parties (such as the comments from different parties here) before you voice your opinion;
- SHOW RESPECT to your competitors. Acknowledge that your competitors did better jobs this time and try to learn something from them and improve yourself.
- Finally and the most important: ask your management team to send you guys to better training classes. By reading you guys' comments in the past two days , I realize this is definitely the most critical task for you. A company can only be as good as the PEOPLE it employees.
sxf24, you obviously didn't read DLBeno's comments and my responses completely before you posted your comment, did you??? Do you work for DL? Were you trained how to read from and listen to your customers??? Did your training classes teach you that you don't need to get a complete picture before you jump into conclusion?
It is DLBeno, a DL employee, who posted a rediculous comment initially and challenged DL's customers to come up with a "better plan" to handle this winter storm. It's also DLBeno who said "it is not my job to come up with a better plan" in another comment.
If you think it is absurd for "frontline employees...expecting them to develop an operational recovery plan for a major winter storm", then it is INSANE for a DL employee like DLBeno to challenge DL's customers to come up with such a plan!
As to your question "If you have an idea for how they can do their job better, please share.", my answers: please, improve your company culture. By reading you guys comments in the past two days, I realize it is your culture that caused the problem. To be more specific:
- Stop pointing fingers, to weather, or to other people; take personal responsibilities;
- Don't tell your customers "it's not my job to come up with a better plan" as DLBeno did. This is a terrible business culture. Learn how to share success AND failure with your company. If DL fails, all its employee fail and you guys all have to go home. It's true you cannot make decision, but as a responsible employee, you can at least give feedback and suggestions to your management team. Just don't tell people "it's not my job to...". Never ever say that.
- SHOW RESPECT to your customers. Listen to your customers before you speak and get complete picture of what's going on from all parties (such as the comments from different parties here) before you voice your opinion;
- SHOW RESPECT to your competitors. Acknowledge that your competitors did better jobs this time and try to learn something from them and improve yourself.
- Finally and the most important: ask your management team to send you guys to better training classes. By reading you guys' comments in the past two days , I realize this is definitely the most critical task for you. A company can only be as good as the PEOPLE it employees.
Dec 21, 2009, 5:30 pm
#64
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
For many years on the Shuttle flights connecting DC and NYC, it was the case that Delta Airlines would do a worse job than US Airways when it came to weather cancellations and resuming flight operations. US would go when DL would not; US would resume sooner than DL. Summer storms or winter storms, DL was less reliable than US on the flights connecting NYC with DC.
Dec 21, 2009, 5:50 pm
#65
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: SEA
Posts: 12,485
While I can understand how you'd be insulted if a customer service person asked you to come up with a solution for their company's problem, this is dialogue on an IBB. Since you're dismissing the efforts of thousands of people (who are trying very hard and are taking responsibility), it seems reasonable to ask what you'd do different.
Changing the culture and showing respect are all nice and good, but they don't eliminate the effect of snow and they don't get a plane off the ground.
Dec 21, 2009, 6:03 pm
#66
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: National Capitol Region
Programs: Delta Dirt Medallion,AA,USairways, WN Rapid Rewards, National Emerald Club
Posts: 3,912
One thing that Delta need to to do is be more proactive and more flexible in its weather waivers.
There's no call to try and profit from misfortunes due to weather, so why delay implementation of weather waivers? The appraoching storm to the mid-atlantic was all the talk last Thursday night, it was being discussed on the news Friday morning with high probablility.
Why did Delta delay until Friday afternoon?
Dec 21, 2009, 6:48 pm
#67
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: MSP
Programs: AA Plat Pto, IHG Plat, HH Gold, Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 2,536
Restoring CVG to a decent Northeast facing hub, at least in winter, would alleviate the problem. DL has DC9s and CRJs that could be activated. There may not be demand for CVG service but those empty seats are exactly what would remove pressure from the system. I doubt anyone would mind a second connection to get out a day earlier.
Dec 21, 2009, 7:05 pm
#68
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 6
To sxf24
"How does one take personal responsibility for the weather?"
- DL cancelled flights prematurely on both 19th and 20th and it didn't snow at all during the day and all other carriers flew their customers out on similar routes. So weather is not the problem here. It is your lack of ability to minimize the impact of the weather that caused the problem and that's what you need to take responsibility. Again, CO/JB/US all did better - you simply cannot deny that.
"While I can understand how you'd be insulted if a customer service person asked you to come up with a solution for their company's problem, this is dialogue on an IBB."
-- I never felt insulted. I just feel his/her comment is rediculous and it showed one of the reasons why you guys did a poor job.
"Since you're dismissing the efforts of thousands of people (who are trying very hard and are taking responsibility), it seems reasonable to ask what you'd do different."
-- If you read our posts, I never dismissed the efforts of OCC or ATG. DLBeno was giving me tons of internal operational details that involves OCC or ATG as execuses. I simply told him/her these details mean nothing to us as customers. We only care that we pay you for the service, and you deliver it. If your doctor mistreated you and instead of apologizing and providing solution to you, he gives you tons of excuses by talking about the way their internal operations work which involve nurses, X-ray room, hospital management, insurance company...Do you care? How would you react?
"Changing the culture and showing respect are all nice and good, but they don't eliminate the effect of snow and they don't get a plane off the ground."
Sure but bad company culture and showing no respect to customers can ground a company and send it back to Chapter 11 in disgrace. There are numerous examples in recent history.
- DL cancelled flights prematurely on both 19th and 20th and it didn't snow at all during the day and all other carriers flew their customers out on similar routes. So weather is not the problem here. It is your lack of ability to minimize the impact of the weather that caused the problem and that's what you need to take responsibility. Again, CO/JB/US all did better - you simply cannot deny that.
"While I can understand how you'd be insulted if a customer service person asked you to come up with a solution for their company's problem, this is dialogue on an IBB."
-- I never felt insulted. I just feel his/her comment is rediculous and it showed one of the reasons why you guys did a poor job.
"Since you're dismissing the efforts of thousands of people (who are trying very hard and are taking responsibility), it seems reasonable to ask what you'd do different."
-- If you read our posts, I never dismissed the efforts of OCC or ATG. DLBeno was giving me tons of internal operational details that involves OCC or ATG as execuses. I simply told him/her these details mean nothing to us as customers. We only care that we pay you for the service, and you deliver it. If your doctor mistreated you and instead of apologizing and providing solution to you, he gives you tons of excuses by talking about the way their internal operations work which involve nurses, X-ray room, hospital management, insurance company...Do you care? How would you react?
"Changing the culture and showing respect are all nice and good, but they don't eliminate the effect of snow and they don't get a plane off the ground."
Sure but bad company culture and showing no respect to customers can ground a company and send it back to Chapter 11 in disgrace. There are numerous examples in recent history.
Dec 21, 2009, 7:06 pm
#69
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: SLC/DCA
Programs: DL DM (and NRSA), UA NA, HH Dia, National Exec Elite
Posts: 1,764
- SHOW RESPECT to your customers. Listen to your customers before you speak and get complete picture of what's going on from all parties (such as the comments from different parties here) before you voice your opinion;
- SHOW RESPECT to your competitors. Acknowledge that your competitors did better jobs this time and try to learn something from them and improve yourself.
- Finally and the most important: ask your management team to send you guys to better training classes. By reading you guys' comments in the past two days , I realize this is definitely the most critical task for you. A company can only be as good as the PEOPLE it employees.
- SHOW RESPECT to your competitors. Acknowledge that your competitors did better jobs this time and try to learn something from them and improve yourself.
- Finally and the most important: ask your management team to send you guys to better training classes. By reading you guys' comments in the past two days , I realize this is definitely the most critical task for you. A company can only be as good as the PEOPLE it employees.
Dec 21, 2009, 7:10 pm
#70
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: ABQ
Programs: Delta Platinum, Southwest A-List
Posts: 1,426
Hilarious exchange!!!
This is quite a funny exchange... all I'll say is that back in February or March I was in NYC when they got dumped on and my flight got cancelled, in fact, all flights out of LGA were cancelled and I was glad they did. They called me earlier that morning and told me that my flight got cancelled and that they had rebooked me for the next day and emailed me the new itinerary. As DLBeno said, i was not stuck at an airport in either NYC or ATL, or any other hub and I surely was glad!
You should have known flying in the NE corridor was going to be a mess this weekend.... I did and I was not even flying!
You should have known flying in the NE corridor was going to be a mess this weekend.... I did and I was not even flying!
Dec 21, 2009, 7:24 pm
#71
Join Date: May 2006
Location: NYC
Programs: Delta DM/2MM, Flying Blue Gold, Hertz Platinum
Posts: 1,934
- DL cancelled flights prematurely on both 19th and 20th and it didn't snow at all during the day and all other carriers flew their customers out on similar routes. So weather is not the problem here. It is your lack of ability to minimize the impact of the weather that caused the problem and that's what you need to take responsibility. Again, CO/JB/US all did better - you simply cannot deny that.
Midday on the 19th, the company cancelled everything south of EWR for all day on the 20th. I thought that might be premature in PHL, where the forecast didn't call for snow until after 7 or 8am. I was sure the RON aircraft would be able to get out. Turned out it started snowing before 5am in PHL.
By that timetable, I certainly understand why DL made the decision to scale down its NYC operations by midday on the 20th. The storm seemed to be moving quickly.
In the end, the snow didn't start in the NY area until much later. Other airlines which didn't cancel as early managed to get several more hours of flight activity in. But had the weather started earlier, those airlines' passengers would have been stranded.
So what you have is an attempt by all of these companies to make the best decisions they can, to strand the fewest airplanes on the ground as possible, and impact the fewest passengers as possible.
And now, they're adding flights like crazy to remove the backlog and get people to their destinations. I'm sure airline route planners are no less frustrated than their passengers... but it sounds like they're doing the best they can...
Dec 21, 2009, 7:27 pm
#72
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Central Mass
Programs: Independent
Posts: 4,829
What, exactly, is the problem anyways?
Is it that they canceled flights that you wanted to be on, but they got people to their destinations? Is it that people aren't getting to where they need to go? Is it just that you don't like the attitude you got when trying to get where you wanted to go? Everyone is throwing out examples and statistics, but they all are meaningless unless you know what you are comparing them to.
Delta canceled a lot of flights. But they also added larger planes to make up for some of those lost seats. And now that they have so many hubs with the merger, many of those passengers could be rerouted. So in that sense the real question is: How many people got to their destination and how long did it take them? Same thing goes for the other airlines - sure they may not have canceled flights, but did those people all get to where they were going, even those whose flights were canceled?
Quite frankly, I am glad they canceled flights, because I don't want to be stuck on a plane for 5 hours on the runway because the plane is snowed in. Or diverted to some obscure airport because guess what - it really did turn bad and the plane couldn't land.
But I also agree that Delta is suffering from a lot of passengers who are not getting where they want to go. A lot of this I am chalking up to the merger - things are a mess with disparate systems, a company whose communication plan does not seem to be able to keep up with the incredible size change, and quite frankly just too much volume to handle.
But a lot of it I am also chalking up to business practice. JetBlue's problems in 2007 stemmed from not having planes and crew available, not just the weather itself. My flight from Atl to Bos Sunday night had to wait for crew to arrive - they were stuck like everyone else. The cost savings plans of having high aircraft utilization and flexible crew assignments becomes a huge vulnerability when things go bad.
Delta screwed up, but be careful about what you are screaming about them screwing up. Because you may not be fixing a problem but instead creating a new vulnerability.
Is it that they canceled flights that you wanted to be on, but they got people to their destinations? Is it that people aren't getting to where they need to go? Is it just that you don't like the attitude you got when trying to get where you wanted to go? Everyone is throwing out examples and statistics, but they all are meaningless unless you know what you are comparing them to.
Delta canceled a lot of flights. But they also added larger planes to make up for some of those lost seats. And now that they have so many hubs with the merger, many of those passengers could be rerouted. So in that sense the real question is: How many people got to their destination and how long did it take them? Same thing goes for the other airlines - sure they may not have canceled flights, but did those people all get to where they were going, even those whose flights were canceled?
Quite frankly, I am glad they canceled flights, because I don't want to be stuck on a plane for 5 hours on the runway because the plane is snowed in. Or diverted to some obscure airport because guess what - it really did turn bad and the plane couldn't land.
But I also agree that Delta is suffering from a lot of passengers who are not getting where they want to go. A lot of this I am chalking up to the merger - things are a mess with disparate systems, a company whose communication plan does not seem to be able to keep up with the incredible size change, and quite frankly just too much volume to handle.
But a lot of it I am also chalking up to business practice. JetBlue's problems in 2007 stemmed from not having planes and crew available, not just the weather itself. My flight from Atl to Bos Sunday night had to wait for crew to arrive - they were stuck like everyone else. The cost savings plans of having high aircraft utilization and flexible crew assignments becomes a huge vulnerability when things go bad.
Delta screwed up, but be careful about what you are screaming about them screwing up. Because you may not be fixing a problem but instead creating a new vulnerability.
Dec 21, 2009, 7:41 pm
#74
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: SLC/DCA
Programs: DL DM (and NRSA), UA NA, HH Dia, National Exec Elite
Posts: 1,764
As I always joke with my boss, if I could predict the weather I wouldnt be working here...DL made a calculated guess and guessed wrong.
Dec 21, 2009, 8:07 pm
#75
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 6
"You do realize how easily this weekend could have gone against them right? If the weather forecast had done what was predicted you would be hearing stories about how CO/F9(not JB)/US had all stranded PAX on the runways and other places instead of how DL proactively canceled all their flights.
As I always joke with my boss, if I could predict the weather I wouldnt be working here...DL made a calculated guess and guessed wrong."
Well, I didn't say CO didn't cancel their flights. They probably did. If they didn't cancel flights when it was snowing, that would be irresponsible. But they managed the crisis more intelligently. I agree tackling a storm like this requires lots of skills and experience. And I disagree the difference in performance is purely a luck.
As I always joke with my boss, if I could predict the weather I wouldnt be working here...DL made a calculated guess and guessed wrong."
Well, I didn't say CO didn't cancel their flights. They probably did. If they didn't cancel flights when it was snowing, that would be irresponsible. But they managed the crisis more intelligently. I agree tackling a storm like this requires lots of skills and experience. And I disagree the difference in performance is purely a luck.