Advice Needed - Holland America South America Dec 6 2016
Oct 4, 2016, 7:41 pm
#16
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Escondido CA USA
Programs: AS, UA, HY, Hil, Merr
Posts: 3,207
We are 4 star with HAL. It has only been a week since getting off our last HAL cruise.
The gratuity charge is a suggested one. It is automatically charged to your account, but you can reduce it, raise it, or eliminate it as you choose. There is a form for that you must sign and state your reason. This is done on the Main Deck.
You left out a lot of costs you may incur on a cruise, if cost is your driver. Tours are a big number. Drinks, a controllable charge, and a mandatory tip on those. Spa, shops, internet, some activities onboard, food and drinks and food off ship. Then there is transport to and from the airport, overnight stay before the cruise (?), clothes (?), (dry) cleaning, etc. HAL has two alternative dining rooms. The Italian place charges $10 PP. The steak one charges $35 PP, and has some selections that are $20 more! Status with HAL can cut these costs, and others.
The good news (?) formal nights are now gala nights. This means it is okay to wear good slacks and a collared shirt, even on these special nights. No one must wear a suit or dress. Also you can bring up to one bottle of wine each on board (to be consumed in your cabin) without charge. This bottle must be in your carry onboard container, not in your checked luggage. To drink this in the dinning room, there is an $18 corkage charge. Also, if you are on a tour that includes a winery, you may bring a bottle back from that tour IF it says so on the tour material from HAL, without paying the $18 corkage. Non conforming bottles brought on the ship are "taken" and returned at the end of the cruise. We had this happen one time a few cruises ago, and we drank the one bottle in our room while while packing to leave!
I have not had a free upgrade in years, except when booking "g" guaranteed. This means you will accept any cabin they assign to you that is at or greater than the category you booked.
As far as upsells, this has happened on our last three cruises with HAL. It has usually been about 10 days out. Often you only have hours to decide. The cost for the full category upgrade is less than the original difference, but still not give away! We have taken these offers each time, but on this most recent cruise, we accept one level, but were then offered an additional level (Neptune lounge) and did not take them up on that.
As to what will happen, who know? Incremental economics suggests they will not go out with a bunch of empty cabins, but forecasting the pace of sales seems near impossible.
You might consider how flexible you are to hold out, and how recoverable your ff tickets are. You might also consider down grading your cabin, for a cheaper price? Many people choose to do this (inside cabin) so they can go on more trips. Everything else is still the same, and likely the cabin will be the exact same size are you window cabin. This sell only worked twice with my wife, and that was over 30 years ago. When you are younger and very active on ship, then your cabin becomes storage, sleeping and hygiene anyway. Good luck with your program.
The gratuity charge is a suggested one. It is automatically charged to your account, but you can reduce it, raise it, or eliminate it as you choose. There is a form for that you must sign and state your reason. This is done on the Main Deck.
You left out a lot of costs you may incur on a cruise, if cost is your driver. Tours are a big number. Drinks, a controllable charge, and a mandatory tip on those. Spa, shops, internet, some activities onboard, food and drinks and food off ship. Then there is transport to and from the airport, overnight stay before the cruise (?), clothes (?), (dry) cleaning, etc. HAL has two alternative dining rooms. The Italian place charges $10 PP. The steak one charges $35 PP, and has some selections that are $20 more! Status with HAL can cut these costs, and others.
The good news (?) formal nights are now gala nights. This means it is okay to wear good slacks and a collared shirt, even on these special nights. No one must wear a suit or dress. Also you can bring up to one bottle of wine each on board (to be consumed in your cabin) without charge. This bottle must be in your carry onboard container, not in your checked luggage. To drink this in the dinning room, there is an $18 corkage charge. Also, if you are on a tour that includes a winery, you may bring a bottle back from that tour IF it says so on the tour material from HAL, without paying the $18 corkage. Non conforming bottles brought on the ship are "taken" and returned at the end of the cruise. We had this happen one time a few cruises ago, and we drank the one bottle in our room while while packing to leave!
I have not had a free upgrade in years, except when booking "g" guaranteed. This means you will accept any cabin they assign to you that is at or greater than the category you booked.
As far as upsells, this has happened on our last three cruises with HAL. It has usually been about 10 days out. Often you only have hours to decide. The cost for the full category upgrade is less than the original difference, but still not give away! We have taken these offers each time, but on this most recent cruise, we accept one level, but were then offered an additional level (Neptune lounge) and did not take them up on that.
As to what will happen, who know? Incremental economics suggests they will not go out with a bunch of empty cabins, but forecasting the pace of sales seems near impossible.
You might consider how flexible you are to hold out, and how recoverable your ff tickets are. You might also consider down grading your cabin, for a cheaper price? Many people choose to do this (inside cabin) so they can go on more trips. Everything else is still the same, and likely the cabin will be the exact same size are you window cabin. This sell only worked twice with my wife, and that was over 30 years ago. When you are younger and very active on ship, then your cabin becomes storage, sleeping and hygiene anyway. Good luck with your program.
Oct 5, 2016, 7:28 am
#17
Join Date: May 2011
Location: San Antonio, TX
Programs: AA EXP, DL Silver, Global Entry
Posts: 1,863
My only caveat about removing Holland America's Hotel Service Charge, a gratuity or auto tip regardless of the name, is at least understanding that the passenger is penalizing the staff by doing that. Yes Holland America, and any cruise line for that matter, ought to pay its staff sufficient wages without adding service charges but that's a debate for a different thread. Also know that at least on Holland America that if a passenger reduces or removes the service charge any out-of-hand cash tips given by that passenger are required to be turned in by the receiving staff and added back into the service pool. Personally I don't like the way Holland America does the service charge and would much rather it just be rolled up in the basic fare. I have no issue tipping the staff that gives me what I perceive to be that extra measure of service so I'm not against tipping. We're 4-star Holland America cruisers but for more reasons than I want to list we've moved on to the smaller luxury lines. Suffice to say for us Holland America's motto of Savor the Journey was more like Savor the Cuts to us.
Oct 5, 2016, 1:26 pm
#18
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Dallas, TX USA
Posts: 2,117
We are 4 star with HAL. It has only been a week since getting off our last HAL cruise.
The gratuity charge is a suggested one. It is automatically charged to your account, but you can reduce it, raise it, or eliminate it as you choose. There is a form for that you must sign and state your reason. This is done on the Main Deck.
You left out a lot of costs you may incur on a cruise, if cost is your driver. Tours are a big number. Drinks, a controllable charge, and a mandatory tip on those. Spa, shops, internet, some activities onboard, food and drinks and food off ship. Then there is transport to and from the airport, overnight stay before the cruise (?), clothes (?), (dry) cleaning, etc. HAL has two alternative dining rooms. The Italian place charges $10 PP. The steak one charges $35 PP, and has some selections that are $20 more! Status with HAL can cut these costs, and others.
The good news (?) formal nights are now gala nights. This means it is okay to wear good slacks and a collared shirt, even on these special nights. No one must wear a suit or dress. Also you can bring up to one bottle of wine each on board (to be consumed in your cabin) without charge. This bottle must be in your carry onboard container, not in your checked luggage. To drink this in the dinning room, there is an $18 corkage charge. Also, if you are on a tour that includes a winery, you may bring a bottle back from that tour IF it says so on the tour material from HAL, without paying the $18 corkage. Non conforming bottles brought on the ship are "taken" and returned at the end of the cruise. We had this happen one time a few cruises ago, and we drank the one bottle in our room while while packing to leave!
I have not had a free upgrade in years, except when booking "g" guaranteed. This means you will accept any cabin they assign to you that is at or greater than the category you booked.
As far as upsells, this has happened on our last three cruises with HAL. It has usually been about 10 days out. Often you only have hours to decide. The cost for the full category upgrade is less than the original difference, but still not give away! We have taken these offers each time, but on this most recent cruise, we accept one level, but were then offered an additional level (Neptune lounge) and did not take them up on that.
As to what will happen, who know? Incremental economics suggests they will not go out with a bunch of empty cabins, but forecasting the pace of sales seems near impossible.
You might consider how flexible you are to hold out, and how recoverable your ff tickets are. You might also consider down grading your cabin, for a cheaper price? Many people choose to do this (inside cabin) so they can go on more trips. Everything else is still the same, and likely the cabin will be the exact same size are you window cabin. This sell only worked twice with my wife, and that was over 30 years ago. When you are younger and very active on ship, then your cabin becomes storage, sleeping and hygiene anyway. Good luck with your program.
The gratuity charge is a suggested one. It is automatically charged to your account, but you can reduce it, raise it, or eliminate it as you choose. There is a form for that you must sign and state your reason. This is done on the Main Deck.
You left out a lot of costs you may incur on a cruise, if cost is your driver. Tours are a big number. Drinks, a controllable charge, and a mandatory tip on those. Spa, shops, internet, some activities onboard, food and drinks and food off ship. Then there is transport to and from the airport, overnight stay before the cruise (?), clothes (?), (dry) cleaning, etc. HAL has two alternative dining rooms. The Italian place charges $10 PP. The steak one charges $35 PP, and has some selections that are $20 more! Status with HAL can cut these costs, and others.
The good news (?) formal nights are now gala nights. This means it is okay to wear good slacks and a collared shirt, even on these special nights. No one must wear a suit or dress. Also you can bring up to one bottle of wine each on board (to be consumed in your cabin) without charge. This bottle must be in your carry onboard container, not in your checked luggage. To drink this in the dinning room, there is an $18 corkage charge. Also, if you are on a tour that includes a winery, you may bring a bottle back from that tour IF it says so on the tour material from HAL, without paying the $18 corkage. Non conforming bottles brought on the ship are "taken" and returned at the end of the cruise. We had this happen one time a few cruises ago, and we drank the one bottle in our room while while packing to leave!
I have not had a free upgrade in years, except when booking "g" guaranteed. This means you will accept any cabin they assign to you that is at or greater than the category you booked.
As far as upsells, this has happened on our last three cruises with HAL. It has usually been about 10 days out. Often you only have hours to decide. The cost for the full category upgrade is less than the original difference, but still not give away! We have taken these offers each time, but on this most recent cruise, we accept one level, but were then offered an additional level (Neptune lounge) and did not take them up on that.
As to what will happen, who know? Incremental economics suggests they will not go out with a bunch of empty cabins, but forecasting the pace of sales seems near impossible.
You might consider how flexible you are to hold out, and how recoverable your ff tickets are. You might also consider down grading your cabin, for a cheaper price? Many people choose to do this (inside cabin) so they can go on more trips. Everything else is still the same, and likely the cabin will be the exact same size are you window cabin. This sell only worked twice with my wife, and that was over 30 years ago. When you are younger and very active on ship, then your cabin becomes storage, sleeping and hygiene anyway. Good luck with your program.
Thank you for passing along all that helpful information and for taking the time to type that all out! I appreciate it.
Oct 5, 2016, 1:35 pm
#19
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Dallas, TX USA
Posts: 2,117
My only caveat about removing Holland America's Hotel Service Charge, a gratuity or auto tip regardless of the name, is at least understanding that the passenger is penalizing the staff by doing that. Yes Holland America, and any cruise line for that matter, ought to pay its staff sufficient wages without adding service charges but that's a debate for a different thread. Also know that at least on Holland America that if a passenger reduces or removes the service charge any out-of-hand cash tips given by that passenger are required to be turned in by the receiving staff and added back into the service pool. Personally I don't like the way Holland America does the service charge and would much rather it just be rolled up in the basic fare. I have no issue tipping the staff that gives me what I perceive to be that extra measure of service so I'm not against tipping. We're 4-star Holland America cruisers but for more reasons than I want to list we've moved on to the smaller luxury lines. Suffice to say for us Holland America's motto of Savor the Journey was more like Savor the Cuts to us.
Thanks. Like you, I am not opposed to tipping the staff who give good service, but this concept of spreading the tip equally to everybody (regardless of whether they give good service or not) defeats the purpose. Call me cynical, but I also don't like it because I have no way of knowing whether it actually gets to the staff or whether higher ups rake a disproportionate share off the top and give the scraps to the lower-paid staff who really need it. I would much rather give the tip money personally to a cabin steward or waiter so that I am sure they actually get the money. I am sure that HAL separates this from the cruise fare in order to lower the amount of commission they pay travel agents.
Oct 5, 2016, 3:01 pm
#20
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Hawai'i Nei
Programs: Au: UA, Marriott, Hilton; GE
Posts: 7,141
Thanks. Like you, I am not opposed to tipping the staff who give good service, but this concept of spreading the tip equally to everybody (regardless of whether they give good service or not) defeats the purpose. Call me cynical, but I also don't like it because I have no way of knowing whether it actually gets to the staff or whether higher ups rake a disproportionate share off the top and give the scraps to the lower-paid staff who really need it. I would much rather give the tip money personally to a cabin steward or waiter so that I am sure they actually get the money. I am sure that HAL separates this from the cruise fare in order to lower the amount of commission they pay travel agents.
My wife and I have also come to accept that we place some added demands on our cabin crew, and we additionally compensate them for their service by giving them something at the end of the cruise.
Of course, we usually leave something for hotel housekeeping staff when there is good service, along with a thank you note. Our tips to the cabin crew roughly approximate that, factoring in that they clean our cabin twice daily and that some of the routine tips get to them too.
Oct 5, 2016, 4:13 pm
#21
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 1999
Programs: FB Silver going for Gold
Posts: 21,801
Many of us have come to accept that the tips collected by the cruiseline are in fact part of the compensation package offered to the employees, and we roll with that barring unusually and widespread poor service.
My wife and I have also come to accept that we place some added demands on our cabin crew, and we additionally compensate them for their service by giving them something at the end of the cruise.
Of course, we usually leave something for hotel housekeeping staff when there is good service, along with a thank you note. Our tips to the cabin crew roughly approximate that, factoring in that they clean our cabin twice daily and that some of the routine tips get to them too.
My wife and I have also come to accept that we place some added demands on our cabin crew, and we additionally compensate them for their service by giving them something at the end of the cruise.
Of course, we usually leave something for hotel housekeeping staff when there is good service, along with a thank you note. Our tips to the cabin crew roughly approximate that, factoring in that they clean our cabin twice daily and that some of the routine tips get to them too.
Unless one is prepared to sail with a wad of banknotes ($25 / day for 2 pax) to tip for every service interaction (breakfast, lunch, tea, dinner, snacks, bar/pool drinks), it is fairer and easier to tip via the HSC. We've always given extra to the dining room and cabin attendant team at the end of our HAL cruises (always exceptional and friendly despite the long hours).
We had a talk with the steward on our last-but-one cruise is that the hotel crew will in turn offer tips for service to those who don't partake in the pool such as the kitchen crew.
Oct 5, 2016, 4:51 pm
#22
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Dallas, TX USA
Posts: 2,117
According to a Wiki article that I saw, the ship in question here, MS Zaandam, carries 1432 to 1745 passengers with a crew of 650. Just rough numbers here because I am guessing, but if we assume that 50 or so of the crew are professional grade (captain, engineering staff, managers, cruise directors, etc.) that leaves 600 or so in the "tip pool". With 1,432 passengers contributing $12.50 each, the daily tip pool works out to $17,900 or $29.83 per employee per day. For a 30 day month that works out to $894.90 per employee. From what I have read elsewhere, the lower-paid cruise employees may make as little as $800 per month (or in some cases even less). If that $800 figure is the combined salary and tips, then it sounds like the passenger tip money is all they're getting.
Oct 5, 2016, 5:15 pm
#23
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 1999
Programs: FB Silver going for Gold
Posts: 21,801
Was on the Zaandam from Vancouver to Valparaiso 2 years ago. Only the non-managerial/supervisory hotel crew are in the tip pool and I believe the kitchen staff are not included either. The sailors definitely aren't. Never asked the crew (particularly the 2 dining room stewards assigned to our table) on this ship or on the Prinsendam directly how much they made but it would seem enough so that they came back. One of them would stay home for over half a year before re-signing.
Oct 5, 2016, 7:11 pm
#24
Join Date: May 2011
Location: San Antonio, TX
Programs: AA EXP, DL Silver, Global Entry
Posts: 1,863
According to a Wiki article that I saw, the ship in question here, MS Zaandam, carries 1432 to 1745 passengers with a crew of 650. Just rough numbers here because I am guessing, but if we assume that 50 or so of the crew are professional grade (captain, engineering staff, managers, cruise directors, etc.) that leaves 600 or so in the "tip pool". With 1,432 passengers contributing $12.50 each, the daily tip pool works out to $17,900 or $29.83 per employee per day. For a 30 day month that works out to $894.90 per employee. From what I have read elsewhere, the lower-paid cruise employees may make as little as $800 per month (or in some cases even less). If that $800 figure is the combined salary and tips, then it sounds like the passenger tip money is all they're getting.
Oct 6, 2016, 7:46 am
#25
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: BOS/PVD/BDL
Programs: PC Plat, SPG Gold, Marriott Gold,HHonors Diamond, Avis PC, Hertz PC, National Exec Elite
Posts: 726
You're including too many in the tip pool. For instance, at least on Holland America, the bar staff (bartenders and waitstaff ) are tipped out of the 15% surcharge applied to every beverage sold from water to wine. The engineering and maintenance staff is also not part of the tip pool. The main players in the tip pool are cabin stewards and their assistants, the various eating venue staff, and minor service staff like the passenger laundry/dry cleaning staff.
According to a Wiki article that I saw, the ship in question here, MS Zaandam, carries 1432 to 1745 passengers with a crew of 650. Just rough numbers here because I am guessing, but if we assume that 50 or so of the crew are professional grade (captain, engineering staff, managers, cruise directors, etc.) that leaves 600 or so in the "tip pool". With 1,432 passengers contributing $12.50 each, the daily tip pool works out to $17,900 or $29.83 per employee per day. For a 30 day month that works out to $894.90 per employee. From what I have read elsewhere, the lower-paid cruise employees may make as little as $800 per month (or in some cases even less). If that $800 figure is the combined salary and tips, then it sounds like the passenger tip money is all they're getting.
The official explanation of tips from the HAL website:
Our crew works very hard to make sure that every aspect of your cruise meets the highest standards. This includes those crew members who serve you directly, such as Dining Room wait staff and the stewards who service your stateroom each day. There are also many others who support their efforts whom you may never meet, such as galley and laundry staff. To ensure that the efforts of all of our crew members are recognized and rewarded, a daily Hotel Service Charge is automatically added to each guest’s shipboard account.
The daily Hotel Service Charge*, per guest per day, is:
Staterooms (interior, ocean-view and verandah) US$12.50
Suites US$13.50
*The charges are subject to change without notice.
If our service exceeds or fails to meet your expectations, you are free to adjust this amount at the end of each segment and/or voyage. The Hotel Service Charge is paid entirely to Holland America Line crew members, and represents an important part of their compensation.
A 15% Bar Service Charge is automatically added to bar charges and Dining Room wine purchases. In terminals, airports, ports of call and on shore excursions, we suggest that you extend gratuities consistent with customary local practices.
Royal Caribbean on their website breaks it down by department:
How is the automatic daily gratuity shared between members of the staff and crew?
A:
The automatic gratuity is $13.50 USD, or $16.50 USD for suite guests, applied to each guest's SeaPass® account on a daily basis. Here's how it is shared between your onboard service team:
Standard Staterooms:
$6.35 - Dining Services
$3.45 - Stateroom Attendant
$3.70 - Other Hotel Services
Suites:
$6.35 - Dining Services
$6.10 - Suite Attendant
$4.05 - Other Hotel Services
Oct 12, 2016, 2:08 pm
#27
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Shenandoah Valley of Virginia
Programs: Hyatt, SPG, IHG, UAL
Posts: 11
Yes, I think the price will go down again. I watched this same cruise last year and it had really great rates the closer to booking. I ended up taking a different cruise, getting an obstructed stateroom booked about 3 weeks out. About one week before sailing we were offered an upsell - $100 more per person for a balcony. Later that same day we were offered a suite for $349 pp more. We stayed with just the balcony.
Just find a price that you are comfortable with knowing that others may get it less expensive but you also got yours for less expensive than some others.
Just find a price that you are comfortable with knowing that others may get it less expensive but you also got yours for less expensive than some others.
Oct 13, 2016, 9:36 am
#28
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Dallas, TX USA
Posts: 2,117
Yes, I think the price will go down again. I watched this same cruise last year and it had really great rates the closer to booking. I ended up taking a different cruise, getting an obstructed stateroom booked about 3 weeks out. About one week before sailing we were offered an upsell - $100 more per person for a balcony. Later that same day we were offered a suite for $349 pp more. We stayed with just the balcony.
Just find a price that you are comfortable with knowing that others may get it less expensive but you also got yours for less expensive than some others.
Just find a price that you are comfortable with knowing that others may get it less expensive but you also got yours for less expensive than some others.
Oct 14, 2016, 6:40 pm
#29
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 1999
Programs: FB Silver going for Gold
Posts: 21,801
You got a pretty good rate. I don't think it will go down too much more. I seem to recall the add-on for Valparaiso to Bs As 2 year ago was ~$1,000.
Did you get a cabin assignment or is it a GTY booking (and what category)?
The main issue with the obstructed view is that they are on the promenade deck (deck 3 or lower promenade as HAL calls it) and the reflective windows are not 100% reflective from the outside.
Did you get a cabin assignment or is it a GTY booking (and what category)?
The main issue with the obstructed view is that they are on the promenade deck (deck 3 or lower promenade as HAL calls it) and the reflective windows are not 100% reflective from the outside.