Jan 18, 2014, 10:10 pm
Last edit by: emilio911
What is it?
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)
Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.)
Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
- Insert, swipe, or tap your payment card
- Have the cashier select credit (CR)
- The terminal will display CREDIT ACCOUNT
- If applicable, enter your PIN
- The terminal will display PROCESSING \ PLEASE WAIT
- The terminal will display EXCH <exchange rate> \ <currency> <amount> \ ACCEPT RATE? \ ENTER=YES CLR=NO
- Instruct the cashier to press the yellow CLEAR (CLR) button (If entering a PIN, you can retain the terminal to perform this step yourself. If entering a signature, you can ask for the terminal to control this process, not indicating that it's a chip-and-signature card.)
- The transaction should now process without DCC
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
- Merchants that offer DCC must be compliant with the regulations
- Inform the cardholder that DCC is optional
- Not impose any additional requirements to use local currency
- Not use any language or procedures that may cause the cardholder to choose DCC by default
- Not convert a transaction in the local currency to the card's billing currency after the transaction has completed
- Ensure that the cardholder expressly agrees to DCC
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
- Merchant did not deposit a transaction receipt in the country where the transaction occurred
- Cardholder was not advised that Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) would occur
- Cardholder was refused the choice of paying in the merchant’s local currency
- Merchant processed a credit refund and did not process a reversal or adjustment within 30 calendar days for a transaction receipt processed in error
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
- The cardholder states that he or she was not given the opportunity to choose the desired currency in which the transactions was completed or did not agree to the currency of the transaction, or
- POI currency conversion took place into a currency that is not the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when the goods or services were priced in the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when cash was disbursed in the cardholdeer's billing currency.
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.
)Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) [2014-2016]
Nov 7, 2014, 10:36 pm
#1321
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 19,800
alexmt "US$xx.xx OK?"
Majuki "Press OK"
Add my Maldivian "Print next receipt?" as well please.
HKG Do is going to Rainbow restaurant in Lamma tonight, I'm not sure if the visitors want to card it (cos whoever does will end up with a lot of loose change - I already have a bagful of banknotes from last night). Maybe LKF bar crawling after if they are so inclined, but a void will be hard to do (clubs and bars are a place is definitely use AE if I'm overseas).
Not expecting DCC for next four trips:
- BKK is as compliant as TPE (meaning they offer it, but they give you quote slip and honour whatever choice you make)
- SIN probably flogs merchants for non-compliance (same as late luggage in Changi)
- Hokkaido doesn't seem to get DCC when we there last May
- Hanoi doesn't DCC when we we there last June
Majuki "Press OK"
Add my Maldivian "Print next receipt?" as well please.
HKG Do is going to Rainbow restaurant in Lamma tonight, I'm not sure if the visitors want to card it (cos whoever does will end up with a lot of loose change - I already have a bagful of banknotes from last night). Maybe LKF bar crawling after if they are so inclined, but a void will be hard to do (clubs and bars are a place is definitely use AE if I'm overseas).
Not expecting DCC for next four trips:
- BKK is as compliant as TPE (meaning they offer it, but they give you quote slip and honour whatever choice you make)
- SIN probably flogs merchants for non-compliance (same as late luggage in Changi)
- Hokkaido doesn't seem to get DCC when we there last May
- Hanoi doesn't DCC when we we there last June
Last edited by percysmith; Nov 7, 2014 at 10:42 pm
Nov 7, 2014, 10:48 pm
#1322
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,537
Wow! I'm surprised you didn't get the, "Excellent choice, sir!" I'm happy that some establishments have wised up to this.The message "US$XX.XX Amount OK?" was similar to the ANZ terminal I encountered at a cafe in Brisbane where the cashier said, "Press OK." I felt like I had just stepped on a landmine and had to make my next move carefully. Likewise, I pressed No as in, "No, that's not ok!" and the transaction completed in AUD. But it's sneaky.
I actually had person once call me sir, then immediately apologise. And I'm like "gender is crap, I don't care what pronouns you use." But other than that aside, no, most merchants I've experienced are okay with turning off DCC. Only in Ireland is DCC a huge problem, and there just use Amex/Discover, to be honest.
That said, I've also never been refused a signature transaction and some of those other goodies. Been forced to hand over my passport, but not refused.
Nov 7, 2014, 11:04 pm
#1323
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,060
alexmt "US$xx.xx OK?"
Majuki "Press OK"
Add my Maldivian "Print next receipt?" as well please.
HKG Do is going to Rainbow restaurant in Lamma tonight, I'm not sure if the visitors want to card it (cos whoever does will end up with a lot of loose change - I already have a bagful of banknotes from last night). Maybe LKF bar crawling after if they are so inclined, but a void will be hard to do (clubs and bars are a place is definitely use AE if I'm overseas).
Not expecting DCC for next four trips:
- BKK is as compliant as TPE (meaning they offer it, but they give you quote slip and honour whatever choice you make)
- SIN flogs merchants for non-complaince (same as late luggage in Changi)
- Hokkaido doesn't seem to get DCC when we there last May
- Hanoi doesn't DCC when we we there last June
Majuki "Press OK"
Add my Maldivian "Print next receipt?" as well please.
HKG Do is going to Rainbow restaurant in Lamma tonight, I'm not sure if the visitors want to card it (cos whoever does will end up with a lot of loose change - I already have a bagful of banknotes from last night). Maybe LKF bar crawling after if they are so inclined, but a void will be hard to do (clubs and bars are a place is definitely use AE if I'm overseas).
Not expecting DCC for next four trips:
- BKK is as compliant as TPE (meaning they offer it, but they give you quote slip and honour whatever choice you make)
- SIN flogs merchants for non-complaince (same as late luggage in Changi)
- Hokkaido doesn't seem to get DCC when we there last May
- Hanoi doesn't DCC when we we there last June
While I have yet to go to Thailand or Singapore, I remember the reports, including yours, indicating Thailand is like Taiwan with the quote slip and honoring the choice. I would expect the penalty for forcing DCC in Singapore to be a S$1000 fine and three lashes.
My experience in Japan has been limited (fewer than 10 transactions) since the only trip I have made outside of Narita was a prepaid tour, but I've never seen DCC. This includes two times at the ANA Crowne Plaza at Narita Airport and two purchases from airport newsstands.
I haven't been to Vietnam, so I can't comment there either.
Please keep us updated on the DCC situation for the HKG DO. We went to Paisano's in Soho, and I didn't want to risk it. I ended up using my Octopus Card to pay for the meal. Perhaps I'm being overly paranoid, but I feel like places like that with tons of expats are ripe targets for DCC.
Nov 7, 2014, 11:19 pm
#1324
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Well, given I'm male, but one of the most obviously genderqueer/genderfluid people you'll meet - very few people have the nerve to call me sir or mister for fear of offending me I actually had person once call me sir, then immediately apologise. And I'm like "gender is crap, I don't care what pronouns you use."
But other than that aside, no, most merchants I've experienced are okay with turning off DCC. Only in Ireland is DCC a huge problem, and there just use Amex/Discover, to be honest.
That said, I've also never been refused a signature transaction and some of those other goodies. Been forced to hand over my passport, but not refused.
I actually had person once call me sir, then immediately apologise. And I'm like "gender is crap, I don't care what pronouns you use." But other than that aside, no, most merchants I've experienced are okay with turning off DCC. Only in Ireland is DCC a huge problem, and there just use Amex/Discover, to be honest.
That said, I've also never been refused a signature transaction and some of those other goodies. Been forced to hand over my passport, but not refused.
)The easiest thing to do is use AmEx - I've done this before - or Discover, but I prefer some of my other cards for the various rewards programs. I tend to find that Visa provides a better exchange rate than AmEx, but this is far from conclusive.
Nov 8, 2014, 8:34 am
#1325
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
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Hang Seng DCC (Rainbow restaurant) - currency selection finalised *after* signing
(courtesy Oreck, redacted copy published with his permission).
Offered rate: $6.487. Visa rate: $6.7695. Scalp: 4.17%
We had a combination of overseas and local (my) cards paying for the HKG DO dinner tonight. I glanced at the first slip to come back (slip on right) and started foaming in the mouth:
Me: (In Cantonese) (Pointing at the verbage) "This shouldn't be here! We don't want this! Can we make it go away???"
Waiter: "Tick it and its HKD"
[Huge amounts of arm waving on my part]: "It never is tick HKD and you get HKD. You must press a button. Do we have to press a button?"
Waiter continued: "There is no further action required. It will be processed as HKD."
I just blew up like Fukushima Daiichi Plant One at this point. I demanded to see the card terminal to have this voided. The waiter and Oreck followed me reluctantly.
I should note Oreck's position on this - he understands there may be some scalping involved, but he does not want to take issue with it. I respect that, it's his financial prerogative, and I admit to somewhat hijacking his transaction to pursue my own research for this thread.
In this event, no scalping took place.
At the Rainbow cashier desk, a lot got cleared up:
1. The cashier does indeed make a currency selection at the terminal after seeing the cardholder's tick box.
2. The cashier printed a courtesy copy of Oreck's slip (similar to my Maldives Taj Exotica courtesy copy but called a Reprint slip here) which had no DCC verbage and showed HKD charging very clearly (slip on left).
3. The cashier noted there has been similar concerns/objections from previous customers over their DCC offering, and they have taken steps to ensure cardholder choice is respected.
4. The cashier that had the cardholder ticked nothing, the card currency amount will be presumed to be selected, which is non-compliant but not the biggest DCC sin in the world.
I withdrew my objection and advised Oreck to sign and keep the cardholder and Reprint copies, which he did.
Another FTer at the DO also paid using her USD card. I demanded the Reprint for her also which was also HKD-only
Last edited by percysmith; Nov 8, 2014 at 9:11 am
Nov 8, 2014, 9:06 am
#1326
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So, with respect, I hope you apologised to the Rainbow staff (and Oreck)!
Nov 8, 2014, 9:22 am
#1327
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christep: I didn't apologise explicitly to the Rainbow staff.
They explained their system had caused previous objections by other visitors. And the waiter did misstate what their cashier was going to do.
I conceded they were right after all after hearing the cashier's explanation and advised Oreck and ColoradoGal it's safe to sign the DCC slips.
I don't feel an unconditional apology is called for because their waiter did misrepresent what was going to happen. But I did advised other FTers in the restarant and publishing their system online here they are ultimately compliant.
I did let Oreck know his slips were going to be used in this DCC thread.
They explained their system had caused previous objections by other visitors. And the waiter did misstate what their cashier was going to do.
I conceded they were right after all after hearing the cashier's explanation and advised Oreck and ColoradoGal it's safe to sign the DCC slips.
I don't feel an unconditional apology is called for because their waiter did misrepresent what was going to happen. But I did advised other FTers in the restarant and publishing their system online here they are ultimately compliant.
I did let Oreck know his slips were going to be used in this DCC thread.
Last edited by percysmith; Nov 8, 2014 at 7:47 pm
Nov 8, 2014, 11:12 am
#1328
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Originally Posted by percysmith
I just blew up like Fukushima Daiichi Plant One at this point. I demanded to see the card terminal to have this voided. The waiter and Oreck followed me reluctantly.
It's similar to my behavior at Hong Kong Disneyland, but at least there the girl said, "Here.. I pushed this button. Here is the Hong Kong Dollar receipt." She handed me the thermal paper receipt which did show HKD.I think the response to the "tick [ ]XXX and it's XXX" should now be a request for a courtesy copy/reprint of the receipt. It's like your case in the Maldives or my case at Chung Yo Department Store in Taichung (after I dragged my wife and the sales assistant to the cashier). Just having the box ticked on the carbon copy receipt without any other reassurance makes me nervous. Fortunately in HK at least the carbon copy receipts present a solid case for a chargeback provided that the issuer will follow through with the chargeback.
It's good that Rainbow honors currency selections, but I feel like this is far from the norm, and far more cases are like Greyhound Cafe than Rainbow.
Originally Posted by percysmith
I should note Oreck's position on this - he understands there may be some scalping involved, but he does not want to take issue with it. I respect that, it's his financial prerogative, and I admit to somewhat hijacking his transaction to pursue my own research for this thread.
You and I fall into the Militantly Anti-DCC category. We try to educate as many people and merchants as possible about avoiding DCC. We will make a scene at merchants for even attempting DCC and escalate as need be, involving managers, voiding transactions, fiddling with the terminal, calling the acquirer, etc. If all else fails, we follow through with a chargeback via our issuer.
The Passive Anti-DCC people are the most frustrating. Those are the types who are with us in spirit - they agree that DCC is a ripoff - but they don't want to make a fuss over things. They opt out of DCC wherever possible, but just accept it whenever they get struck with it even knowing that they're getting a marked up price.
I would say the largest category is those who are ignorant. These people can even be persuaded by merchants to accept DCC. However, most of the time there is no need. They passively accept DCC by not ticking the box or knowing that they have to opt out. I'm sure many in this category would be upset after getting educated about DCC, but the trouble is educating enough of them to reach critical mass. Right now merchants can argue, "See... a large percentage of people accept DCC, so it's a service our customers value." However, silence these days does not mean consent. If each customer had all of the objective facts and then made a clear and conscious choice, I think DCC acceptance rates would be a fraction of what they are today.
Finally, there is the Pro-DCC camp. Now, these people aren't necessarily in favor of DCC. Actually, I think they could be ardent opponents of DCC if you could communicate it clearly. But these are the types who make the comments "Why can't they show the price in real money?" "How much is this in real money?! I don't know how much this is." "Oh, you can accept USD? Now here's a merchant who understands the value of the dollar!" (...and how to profit off of a customer of this type.
)
Nov 8, 2014, 2:27 pm
#1329
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However, the whole game has changed recently. A couple of years ago, the rare times I saw DCC it was around 3% and most people didn't have fee-free credit cards. If my credit card charges 2.7-3% and the DCC charge is 3%, do I really care? If have to be charged by someone, I might even prefer to give the merchant's bank the 3% instead of my credit card's bank.
Since then, three things have changed:
1) More banks (at least in the USA) are offering credit cards with no foreign exchange fee.
2) More banks (esp. in Australia, though I've read of the USA too) are charging a foreign transaction fee even if the transaction is in their own currency, which makes DCC an addition, not an alternative, to the issuing bank's charge!
3) Most importantly, DCC charges can be 5%, which is way above what any credit card charges and therefore totally unacceptable and uncompetitive in all cases.
It will take time for consumers to realise that what used to be an innocuous choice has become a major rip-off due to those three factors.
Nov 8, 2014, 7:58 pm
#1330
Join Date: Feb 2013
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Just saw my first DCC attempt in Australia.
At Sydney Airport Domestic Terminal, when I tried to purchase some pasta, the ANZ terminal, after "cheque, saving, credit" selection screen, prompted something about FxRate, and gave me two choices of Yes and No. To select No, I had to click "clear", and then click "Enter" directly below to accept $A amount.
To add to the confusion, the "cheque, saving, credit" buttons are other three buttons directly below the screen, so the DCC part take you to another section of the keypad.
Compliant, but a little bit tricky.
Other than that, haven't encountered DCC anywhere else (over 100 transactions).
At Sydney Airport Domestic Terminal, when I tried to purchase some pasta, the ANZ terminal, after "cheque, saving, credit" selection screen, prompted something about FxRate, and gave me two choices of Yes and No. To select No, I had to click "clear", and then click "Enter" directly below to accept $A amount.
To add to the confusion, the "cheque, saving, credit" buttons are other three buttons directly below the screen, so the DCC part take you to another section of the keypad.
Compliant, but a little bit tricky.
Other than that, haven't encountered DCC anywhere else (over 100 transactions).
Nov 8, 2014, 8:35 pm
#1331
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It's about 2.5% foreign currency conversion fee for Canadian cards generally.
Fortunately Canadian banks don't seen to apply foreign transaction fee yet, unlike their US, Australian and (increasingly) HK counterparts.
But still, in oreck's case he would be most likely 1.67% out of pocket.
Fortunately Canadian banks don't seen to apply foreign transaction fee yet, unlike their US, Australian and (increasingly) HK counterparts.
But still, in oreck's case he would be most likely 1.67% out of pocket.
Nov 8, 2014, 9:25 pm
#1332
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
Many if not most Americans when they travel are shocked to find out the US dollar does not reign supreme. They expect everybody to be able to express prices in the only currency they understand or wish to understand namely US dollars. When they pay cash, it is too much for many of them to take a few minutes to learn the coins and be able to count out small amounts, can't get it through their heads that in most countries today, the smallest paper money is 5 units of whatever. And for the most part never think clerks are trying to rip them off (in fairness to the clerks, often students, they are just doing what they're told). And when a clerk tells them they can pay in US dollars so they'll know exactly how much something costs, they are amazed at the courtesy being extended on a credit card payment. Simply the way it is.
Nov 9, 2014, 2:17 am
#1333
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Just saw my first DCC attempt in Australia.
At Sydney Airport Domestic Terminal, when I tried to purchase some pasta, the ANZ terminal, after "cheque, saving, credit" selection screen, prompted something about FxRate, and gave me two choices of Yes and No. To select No, I had to click "clear", and then click "Enter" directly below to accept $A amount.
At Sydney Airport Domestic Terminal, when I tried to purchase some pasta, the ANZ terminal, after "cheque, saving, credit" selection screen, prompted something about FxRate, and gave me two choices of Yes and No. To select No, I had to click "clear", and then click "Enter" directly below to accept $A amount.
I would still echo your sentiment that DCC is rare in Australia since I've had at least 100+ transactions there over the last four years and have only seen it twice.
And for the most part never think clerks are trying to rip them off (in fairness to the clerks, often students, they are just doing what they're told). And when a clerk tells them they can pay in US dollars so they'll know exactly how much something costs, they are amazed at the courtesy being extended on a credit card payment. Simply the way it is.
I bet if you gave 100 DCC-naive Americans a restaurant receipt with DCC abroad that was presented in the familiar US format of having a line to sign in the tip, that close to all 100 would sign it and probably sign in a tip in the USD amount too. Even if DCC verbiage were included at the bottom with a 5% DCC markup, I imagine you'd get few to question the charge. Learning to spot DCC and methods to thwart it takes experience and an ability to watch for details.
Nov 9, 2014, 6:00 pm
#1334
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It's about 2.5% foreign currency conversion fee for Canadian cards generally.
Fortunately Canadian banks don't seen to apply foreign transaction fee yet, unlike their US, Australian and (increasingly) HK counterparts.
But still, in oreck's case he would be most likely 1.67% out of pocket.
Fortunately Canadian banks don't seen to apply foreign transaction fee yet, unlike their US, Australian and (increasingly) HK counterparts.
But still, in oreck's case he would be most likely 1.67% out of pocket.
Paypower prepaid does have a foreign transaction fee but this can be a good thing (I have been able to pull USD at a CIBC machine in YYZ that charged bank rate, that is, before my paypower was cancelled.)
Nov 10, 2014, 4:26 am
#1335
Join Date: Feb 2013
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Can you name and shame the establishment? Was it a franchise restaurant or single location? This seems like the terminal at the cafe in Brisbane, which was also ANZ. It's definitely counterintuitive having to press clear. Also, did they had you the terminal presumably for you to enter your PIN? I think that's the only thing that saved me at the cafe in Brisbane since I had full control of the terminal.
As long as it's not forced, I'm OK~