Sep 20, 2013, 11:40 am
Last edit by: philemer
Posts from 1/1/16 onward can be found here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credit-card-programs/1739359-2016-onward-usa-emv-cards-availability-q-chip-pin-signature.html
EMV wikipost volunteers: kebosabi
What is EMV?
EMV is a defacto global standard of technology where there is a visible microchip on the front of the card. It looks like this:
Who issues them?
See Google Docs spreadsheet in Post #1
SFOAMS also has created a list of excellent webpage that shows US EMV cards in a more interactive interface
Another site, which lets you narrow the search for an EMV card by various parameters, is http://www.spotterswiki.com/emv/index.php.
Several credit unions issue some form of Chip-and-PIN credit cards or prepaid cards. Prepaid EMV cards however are not recommended due to junk fees. USAA (currently restricted to members of military) used to offer Chip-and-PIN cards, but as late has backtracked to Chip-and-Signature priority.
Hey that's a cool Google Docs list! I know others that aren't on that list. How can I help by adding them to the list?
My bad for not putting this into the wiki sooner. Right now, the Google Docs is locked out of editing and only in "read-only" view because there were instances in the past where people would just delete the rows not thinking that it affects others viewing the list.
If you promise not to delete any rows and input all the pertinent info (annual fee, rewards, FTF, etc.), I can provide you with edit access. Just shoot me a PM to kebosabi with your gmail address and I'll provide you edit access.
Thanks for helping out!
As of October 2014, no USA-based card issuer offers Chip-and-PIN priority cards except for BMO Harris (Diners Club) and UN Federal Credit Union. Other major USA-based banks such as BofA, Chase, Citi, as well as others issue Chip-and-Signature cards which may work at many automated kiosks. However, bear in mind the word may is used above is a context where there is no absolute certainty of success for certain environments such as automated kiosks due to different natures of offline and online transactions. It is highly recommended to read Post #3 which lists real life FTer examples on how Chip-and-Signature worked and did not work at various transaction environments.
Can I upgrade it right now?
If it's listed on that Google Docs spreadsheet or SFOAMS' Silk page, wouldn't hurt to call/twitter them for a free upgrade. If you get the response you don't like, hang up, try again.
What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN?
You insert the chipped card into the slot. The physical contact terminal will read the EMV chip and the terminal will automatically read the preferred cardholder verification methods (called CVM) for that card.
Chip-and-Signature means that the terminal will printout a receipt for you to sign. This is the most prevalent authentication for most US issued EMV cards. Chip-and-Signature helps in a way that it will get through to face-to-face merchant transactions where you and the merchant do not speak the same language.
Chip-and-PIN means that the terminal will prompt you to input a PIN for authentication. Some credit union issued credit cards will have this CVM as secondary if Chip-and-Signature cannot be done. Chip-and-PIN is the more prevalent method of authentication used outside the US, especially in transaction environments where no human interaction is needed (i.e. automated gas pumps, toll roads, train kiosks, etc.).
The Google Docs spreadsheet will list which CVM are used in the EMV cards listed. Some cards can only do Chip-and-Signature. Other cards can do both Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN. And others might have a third option called No CVM (no authentication needed) which is reserved for low value transactions.
One chip can hold a lot more data, therefore it is capable of doing multiple verification methods. That's one of the great things about EMV over the mag-stripe which can hold very little data.
I want to know for sure what my EMV chip does. Is there anyway I can test out my own EMV card to see what the CVM list is?
alexmt has written up a nice step-by-step procedure on Post #3615.
If most of the EMV cards in the US is the Chip-and-Signature type, doesn't that mean it's still useless abroad?
Depends if you see it as glass half empty or glass half full. See Post #3 for further details on how Chip-and-Signature has worked both successfully and unsuccessfully depending on the merchant transaction environment and use your best judgment whether which one is right for you.
Are there any places in the US that are accepting transactions via the EMV chip?
tmiw has created a dedicated Google maps webpage to show where EMV has been proven to work here: http://emvacceptedhere.com/ Per his Post #4240, feel free to add any places with active EMV terminals if you come across one.
As of 2014/05, the EMV terminals in most Walmarts and Sam's Clubs are being turned on. Hence, the best place to try them out would be your local Walmart or Sam's Club. For other merchants, it's slowly being phased in.
I hope people will post them in the Post your receipt of your 1st EMV based transaction in the US thread. cvarming has shown us an EMV transaction receipt from Brooklyn, NY in Post #2380. I myself had my first EMV based (Chip-and-Signature) transaction in two stores in the Los Angeles area, as shown in detail in Post #2705 (courtesy of WhatWhatTech for pointing these two stores out)
I don't want a chip in my card. I heard horror stories all over the media saying hackers can steal my credit card info from a mile away.
There are two types of chips. One is contactless and the other is contact. Cards can be either one or the other, or both.
In the Google Docs spreadsheet, the cards that are capable of contactless payments are listed seperately under the "RFID or NFC contactless chip" column. If it says yes, then that means it has the ability to do contactless payments. If it says no, it doesn't have that feature.
The one that the media has overhyped about hackers "stealing your information wirelessly" was the contactless type like this:
You are worried about this happening, right?
You don't have to worry. EMV is a chip standard that can have both contact and contactless interfaces. With the traditional contact interface, this means you actually have to physically insert the chip into a POS terminal for it to be authorized, like this:
With the contact interface, nothing is wireless. No data is sent out in a stand-alone contact type EMV chip. With the EMV contactless interface, data is sent wirelessly.
Furthermore, contactless chip cards are required to show a symbol (looks like Wi-Fi symbol) somewhere on the card that to denote it's capability as a contactless card. For example, here's an example of a Discover Card with contactless capability (in which Discover calls "Discover ZIP") showing the contactless symbol on the back of the card:
Don't believe everything that the media says. Besides, millions of people all over the world from London to Singapore, uses contactless payments daily in extremely crowded subways and mass transit with nary any problems. There are multiple layers of encrypted securities and keys that are needed to break the code.
Frankly, giving your physical card to a waiter/waitress who takes the card out of your view is much more susceptible to fraud than contactless payments.
Why should I care?
If you are an international traveler, you will want this because majority of the world has or in the process of converting to this payment format.
In fact, in 2012, even North Korea moved to the EMV format, leaving the US as one of the countries in the world that hasn't done so.
In addition, VISA, MC, AMEX, and Discover have all agreed to incentivize the USA shifting to EMV payments by 2015 by shifting liability for fraudulent transactions to merchants if they do not have EMV equipment and the cardholder has an EMV card. So if you travel internationally or would like to get one before the others, you might be interested in getting one.
BS! I had no problems using my card in [insert whereever country], [insert whatever point in time]
If you stick to the tourist path where they have lots of visitors from the US, you should have no problems using your mag-stripe only card in hotels and restaurants, at least for now. But as things can change as things go forward.
However, consider that once you start taking the off-beaten path, go to non-touristy places where they are not familiar with mag-stripes, rent a car and use toll roads, fill up gas, or try to buy train tickets you might end up into a trouble of the machine not recognizing your card because it lacks the chip. Furthermore, a lot of toll roads, gas pumps, and automated ticket machines lack any human assistance to help you when you need it the most.
But [insert credit card company] told me all merchants that display their logo must accept them! All I have to do is report them for violating their agreements, right?
There are several factors against this.
1. You can only speak English. The merchant representative, most likely a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, speaks in a different language, let's say French. If you have no French language skills, how are you going to get your point across? Are you going to whip out your cell phone at exorbitant int'l roaming charges and hope the customer service is going to translate it for you on the spot? Or maybe you might actually know French. But how about Swahili, Farsi, Balinese, or the multiple languages in mainland China?
2. Just like US, the rest of the world's businesses uses part-time minimum wage workers as cashiers to cut down on labor costs. Most of their SOP training manuals are written by MBA types to not to do anything they are not familiar with. Do not expect them to understand the intricate details of credit card mumbo jumbo. You don't expect Taco Bell employees to understand the minute details of Discover-JCB-Union Pay agreements, right? Same thing the other way around: be respectful as a guest in their country, prepare in advance in their ways, avoid being an "ugly American" stereotype.
3. You are a guest in their country. You are a minority. If 99.9% of their country's people and other tourists from around the world uses EMV, do you really think they are going to accomodate the 0.1% of American tourists who only have mag-stripes credit cards?
4. Again, you are a guest in their country. How would you, as an American standing in line, react if a Chinese tourist was clogging up the lines at a local Taco Bell because the clerk doesn't understand the Discover-Union Pay agreement and has trouble communicating between Mandarin spoken by the tourist and English spoken by the Taco Bell clerk? Same way the other way around. You do not want to clog up the lines for everyone. The less hassle, the better.
5. VISA and MC make tons of money from merchants in that country. Say SNCF French Rail. It's a billion dollar company in France. Do you think VISA is going to pull the plug of their relationship with SNCF because SNCF refuses to do mag-stripe processing at their unmanned train station kiosk? Of course not. Be realistic.
6. And lastly, if you're up against an unstaffed toll kiosk, gas pump or train ticket machine, are you going to yell curses at the machine?
But I want my credit card to be able to be used in the US too!
No worries. They have not gotten rid of the mag-stripe on the back of the card for backward compatibility reasons, just like we still have embossed numbers on our cards for backwards compatibility to using those old carbon copy imprinters.
[insert own Hyatt card image front and back together with red arrows pointing to all the backward compatibility features]
You use the chip on the front of the card abroad (for now), and the mag-stripe just like any other card for the US. Basically, you're increasing your credit card's acceptance rate by getting a card that both via the chip and the mag-stripe. You're getting a better deal for free.
And when 2015 comes along and US switches to EMV, you'll be way ahead of everyone else too!
So why did the rest of the world and the US moved/moving toward EMV?
Primarily, due to fraud concerns. You see, the mag-stripe has been with us since the 1950s. It may have been the most high tech thing back in the day, but with the technology that is available today, any shmo can pick up a $100 USB magnetic card skimming device off of eBay and get your credit card info.
And unlike skimming off contactless cards which actually need the person to have l33t programming skills, skimming off a magnetic stripe has become so ubiquitous that nary a day goes about skimming fraud going on somewhere in America, from gas pumps, Michael's stores (2011), Target breaches (2013), restaurant waiters/waitresses, to even McDonald's drive thrus.
https://www.google.com/search?q=skimming+fraud
These type of fraud used to be prevalent in Europe. But once they started switching over to EMV starting over 2 decades ago, this type of fraud went elsewhere. It went over to Asia, Canada and Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. until they too began implementing EMV to combat skimming fraud. The US is practically the only country left that hasn't done so, therefore all the fraud that used to take place elsewhere is now happening here.
But EMV is old and it's not fool proof. Shouldn't we just skip over it and do something new instead?
Yes, EMV is old. It was developed in the 1990s and its smart card payment predecessor was first introduced in France. But as of today, it has become the defacto global standard of payments.
But then, what else is there? There is no other de facto global standard of payments alternative. For example, if we decide to skip over it and do something new, hypothetically like DNA matching technology, it still means US int'l travelers will continue to have problems abroad with useless plastic acceptance because no other country is using this DNA matching technology except the US.
Besides, nothing is fool proof. You can say that the bank vault isn't fool proof because you can crack it open if enough C4 is used. But your average low-life scumbag isn't likely to get military grade C4 easily either. But the bank vault does make it harder to get the bank's money over say a petty cash box. That's the point here. EMV is akin to a security tight bank vault, the old mag-stripe is akin to a petty cash box lying around inside the drawer.
I'm a business owner and I don't think EMV is going to take off. I'm not going to spend extra hundreds of dollars to upgrade my credit card machine. Convince me other wise why I should.
I can understand the added extra cost to your business once this switchover takes place. But before even saying that, look at your existing POS terminal. Does it have a slot somewhere to insert a card?
Most likely, if you had replaced your POS terminal within the past five years, you already have an EMV capable terminal. EMV is basically just not turned on yet from the processor and acquirer side.
If you have an EMV capable terminal, then a best bet would be to contact your acquirer to have the EMV feature turned on. You did your end of the deal already by having an EMV capable terminal, it is now the acquirers' responsibility to turn it on in accordance to the EMV switchover mandate.
And if you don't, you are going to replace your POS terminal anyway from common wear and tear. It isn't a hard switch-over. You can continue to use your POS terminal until it dies out because EMV cardholders will still have the mag-stripe on the back. And by the time your non-EMV capable POS terminal is up for replacement the market will be full with these newer POS terminals that can accept the mag-stripe, EMV, as well as contactless payments.
In addition, you may also want to check with your acquirer or processor about EMV capable terminals. Some of them are willing to replace your terminal for free in preparation for the US EMV switchover. Call and ask for details.
But what's in it for me? I'm the one that has to pay for the upgrade.
All the major card networks have given incentives for merchants for the upcoming EMV switchover.
If 75% or more of your credit card transactions are done on an EMV contact and contactless terminal, they are going to waive your annual PCI-DSS fees, which usually costs you around $5.00-$19.95/month per terminal. The overall long term cost savings of those compliance fees will be larger than the cost of an one time upgrade for the terminal.
The downside is that once EMV switchover happens and if you do not have a POS terminal that is able to accept EMV, the fraud liability shifts over to the merchant.
I own several fast food franchises. If I upgrade my POS terminals at all of my restaurants, it's going to cost me thousands, if not millions. I don't think anyone is going to use a fake credit card to buy $5 burgers. And if they do, wouldn't it be cheaper for me to eat the fraud cost?
Remember also that fraud isn't just committed by dishonest customers using fraudulent cards. Fraud can also happen with dishonest employees skimming off credit card data from the mag-stripe as in the case of a teenage McDonald's drive thru employee skimming off $13,000 of customers' credit cards in Olympia, WA. Consider the public relations fall out that your business may have if this happens (i.e. the big Target breach of 2013, where someone used a mag stripe card to load malware INTO Target's system). Is it worth risking to take such a huge PR disaster?
EMV wikipost volunteers: kebosabi
What is EMV?
EMV is a defacto global standard of technology where there is a visible microchip on the front of the card. It looks like this:
Who issues them?
See Google Docs spreadsheet in Post #1
SFOAMS also has created a list of excellent webpage that shows US EMV cards in a more interactive interface
Another site, which lets you narrow the search for an EMV card by various parameters, is http://www.spotterswiki.com/emv/index.php.
Several credit unions issue some form of Chip-and-PIN credit cards or prepaid cards. Prepaid EMV cards however are not recommended due to junk fees. USAA (currently restricted to members of military) used to offer Chip-and-PIN cards, but as late has backtracked to Chip-and-Signature priority.
Hey that's a cool Google Docs list! I know others that aren't on that list. How can I help by adding them to the list?
My bad for not putting this into the wiki sooner. Right now, the Google Docs is locked out of editing and only in "read-only" view because there were instances in the past where people would just delete the rows not thinking that it affects others viewing the list.
If you promise not to delete any rows and input all the pertinent info (annual fee, rewards, FTF, etc.), I can provide you with edit access. Just shoot me a PM to kebosabi with your gmail address and I'll provide you edit access.
Thanks for helping out!
As of October 2014, no USA-based card issuer offers Chip-and-PIN priority cards except for BMO Harris (Diners Club) and UN Federal Credit Union. Other major USA-based banks such as BofA, Chase, Citi, as well as others issue Chip-and-Signature cards which may work at many automated kiosks. However, bear in mind the word may is used above is a context where there is no absolute certainty of success for certain environments such as automated kiosks due to different natures of offline and online transactions. It is highly recommended to read Post #3 which lists real life FTer examples on how Chip-and-Signature worked and did not work at various transaction environments.
Can I upgrade it right now?
If it's listed on that Google Docs spreadsheet or SFOAMS' Silk page, wouldn't hurt to call/twitter them for a free upgrade. If you get the response you don't like, hang up, try again.
What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN?
You insert the chipped card into the slot. The physical contact terminal will read the EMV chip and the terminal will automatically read the preferred cardholder verification methods (called CVM) for that card.
Chip-and-Signature means that the terminal will printout a receipt for you to sign. This is the most prevalent authentication for most US issued EMV cards. Chip-and-Signature helps in a way that it will get through to face-to-face merchant transactions where you and the merchant do not speak the same language.
Chip-and-PIN means that the terminal will prompt you to input a PIN for authentication. Some credit union issued credit cards will have this CVM as secondary if Chip-and-Signature cannot be done. Chip-and-PIN is the more prevalent method of authentication used outside the US, especially in transaction environments where no human interaction is needed (i.e. automated gas pumps, toll roads, train kiosks, etc.).
The Google Docs spreadsheet will list which CVM are used in the EMV cards listed. Some cards can only do Chip-and-Signature. Other cards can do both Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN. And others might have a third option called No CVM (no authentication needed) which is reserved for low value transactions.
One chip can hold a lot more data, therefore it is capable of doing multiple verification methods. That's one of the great things about EMV over the mag-stripe which can hold very little data.
I want to know for sure what my EMV chip does. Is there anyway I can test out my own EMV card to see what the CVM list is?
alexmt has written up a nice step-by-step procedure on Post #3615.
If most of the EMV cards in the US is the Chip-and-Signature type, doesn't that mean it's still useless abroad?
Depends if you see it as glass half empty or glass half full. See Post #3 for further details on how Chip-and-Signature has worked both successfully and unsuccessfully depending on the merchant transaction environment and use your best judgment whether which one is right for you.
Are there any places in the US that are accepting transactions via the EMV chip?
tmiw has created a dedicated Google maps webpage to show where EMV has been proven to work here: http://emvacceptedhere.com/ Per his Post #4240, feel free to add any places with active EMV terminals if you come across one.
As of 2014/05, the EMV terminals in most Walmarts and Sam's Clubs are being turned on. Hence, the best place to try them out would be your local Walmart or Sam's Club. For other merchants, it's slowly being phased in.
I hope people will post them in the Post your receipt of your 1st EMV based transaction in the US thread. cvarming has shown us an EMV transaction receipt from Brooklyn, NY in Post #2380. I myself had my first EMV based (Chip-and-Signature) transaction in two stores in the Los Angeles area, as shown in detail in Post #2705 (courtesy of WhatWhatTech for pointing these two stores out)
I don't want a chip in my card. I heard horror stories all over the media saying hackers can steal my credit card info from a mile away.
There are two types of chips. One is contactless and the other is contact. Cards can be either one or the other, or both.
In the Google Docs spreadsheet, the cards that are capable of contactless payments are listed seperately under the "RFID or NFC contactless chip" column. If it says yes, then that means it has the ability to do contactless payments. If it says no, it doesn't have that feature.
The one that the media has overhyped about hackers "stealing your information wirelessly" was the contactless type like this:
You are worried about this happening, right?
You don't have to worry. EMV is a chip standard that can have both contact and contactless interfaces. With the traditional contact interface, this means you actually have to physically insert the chip into a POS terminal for it to be authorized, like this:
With the contact interface, nothing is wireless. No data is sent out in a stand-alone contact type EMV chip. With the EMV contactless interface, data is sent wirelessly.
Furthermore, contactless chip cards are required to show a symbol (looks like Wi-Fi symbol) somewhere on the card that to denote it's capability as a contactless card. For example, here's an example of a Discover Card with contactless capability (in which Discover calls "Discover ZIP") showing the contactless symbol on the back of the card:
Don't believe everything that the media says. Besides, millions of people all over the world from London to Singapore, uses contactless payments daily in extremely crowded subways and mass transit with nary any problems. There are multiple layers of encrypted securities and keys that are needed to break the code.
Frankly, giving your physical card to a waiter/waitress who takes the card out of your view is much more susceptible to fraud than contactless payments.
Why should I care?
If you are an international traveler, you will want this because majority of the world has or in the process of converting to this payment format.
In fact, in 2012, even North Korea moved to the EMV format, leaving the US as one of the countries in the world that hasn't done so.
In addition, VISA, MC, AMEX, and Discover have all agreed to incentivize the USA shifting to EMV payments by 2015 by shifting liability for fraudulent transactions to merchants if they do not have EMV equipment and the cardholder has an EMV card. So if you travel internationally or would like to get one before the others, you might be interested in getting one.
BS! I had no problems using my card in [insert whereever country], [insert whatever point in time]
If you stick to the tourist path where they have lots of visitors from the US, you should have no problems using your mag-stripe only card in hotels and restaurants, at least for now. But as things can change as things go forward.
However, consider that once you start taking the off-beaten path, go to non-touristy places where they are not familiar with mag-stripes, rent a car and use toll roads, fill up gas, or try to buy train tickets you might end up into a trouble of the machine not recognizing your card because it lacks the chip. Furthermore, a lot of toll roads, gas pumps, and automated ticket machines lack any human assistance to help you when you need it the most.
But [insert credit card company] told me all merchants that display their logo must accept them! All I have to do is report them for violating their agreements, right?
There are several factors against this.
1. You can only speak English. The merchant representative, most likely a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, speaks in a different language, let's say French. If you have no French language skills, how are you going to get your point across? Are you going to whip out your cell phone at exorbitant int'l roaming charges and hope the customer service is going to translate it for you on the spot? Or maybe you might actually know French. But how about Swahili, Farsi, Balinese, or the multiple languages in mainland China?
2. Just like US, the rest of the world's businesses uses part-time minimum wage workers as cashiers to cut down on labor costs. Most of their SOP training manuals are written by MBA types to not to do anything they are not familiar with. Do not expect them to understand the intricate details of credit card mumbo jumbo. You don't expect Taco Bell employees to understand the minute details of Discover-JCB-Union Pay agreements, right? Same thing the other way around: be respectful as a guest in their country, prepare in advance in their ways, avoid being an "ugly American" stereotype.
3. You are a guest in their country. You are a minority. If 99.9% of their country's people and other tourists from around the world uses EMV, do you really think they are going to accomodate the 0.1% of American tourists who only have mag-stripes credit cards?
4. Again, you are a guest in their country. How would you, as an American standing in line, react if a Chinese tourist was clogging up the lines at a local Taco Bell because the clerk doesn't understand the Discover-Union Pay agreement and has trouble communicating between Mandarin spoken by the tourist and English spoken by the Taco Bell clerk? Same way the other way around. You do not want to clog up the lines for everyone. The less hassle, the better.
5. VISA and MC make tons of money from merchants in that country. Say SNCF French Rail. It's a billion dollar company in France. Do you think VISA is going to pull the plug of their relationship with SNCF because SNCF refuses to do mag-stripe processing at their unmanned train station kiosk? Of course not. Be realistic.
6. And lastly, if you're up against an unstaffed toll kiosk, gas pump or train ticket machine, are you going to yell curses at the machine?
But I want my credit card to be able to be used in the US too!
No worries. They have not gotten rid of the mag-stripe on the back of the card for backward compatibility reasons, just like we still have embossed numbers on our cards for backwards compatibility to using those old carbon copy imprinters.
[insert own Hyatt card image front and back together with red arrows pointing to all the backward compatibility features]
You use the chip on the front of the card abroad (for now), and the mag-stripe just like any other card for the US. Basically, you're increasing your credit card's acceptance rate by getting a card that both via the chip and the mag-stripe. You're getting a better deal for free.
And when 2015 comes along and US switches to EMV, you'll be way ahead of everyone else too!
So why did the rest of the world and the US moved/moving toward EMV?
Primarily, due to fraud concerns. You see, the mag-stripe has been with us since the 1950s. It may have been the most high tech thing back in the day, but with the technology that is available today, any shmo can pick up a $100 USB magnetic card skimming device off of eBay and get your credit card info.
And unlike skimming off contactless cards which actually need the person to have l33t programming skills, skimming off a magnetic stripe has become so ubiquitous that nary a day goes about skimming fraud going on somewhere in America, from gas pumps, Michael's stores (2011), Target breaches (2013), restaurant waiters/waitresses, to even McDonald's drive thrus.
https://www.google.com/search?q=skimming+fraud
These type of fraud used to be prevalent in Europe. But once they started switching over to EMV starting over 2 decades ago, this type of fraud went elsewhere. It went over to Asia, Canada and Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. until they too began implementing EMV to combat skimming fraud. The US is practically the only country left that hasn't done so, therefore all the fraud that used to take place elsewhere is now happening here.
But EMV is old and it's not fool proof. Shouldn't we just skip over it and do something new instead?
Yes, EMV is old. It was developed in the 1990s and its smart card payment predecessor was first introduced in France. But as of today, it has become the defacto global standard of payments.
But then, what else is there? There is no other de facto global standard of payments alternative. For example, if we decide to skip over it and do something new, hypothetically like DNA matching technology, it still means US int'l travelers will continue to have problems abroad with useless plastic acceptance because no other country is using this DNA matching technology except the US.
Besides, nothing is fool proof. You can say that the bank vault isn't fool proof because you can crack it open if enough C4 is used. But your average low-life scumbag isn't likely to get military grade C4 easily either. But the bank vault does make it harder to get the bank's money over say a petty cash box. That's the point here. EMV is akin to a security tight bank vault, the old mag-stripe is akin to a petty cash box lying around inside the drawer.
I'm a business owner and I don't think EMV is going to take off. I'm not going to spend extra hundreds of dollars to upgrade my credit card machine. Convince me other wise why I should.
I can understand the added extra cost to your business once this switchover takes place. But before even saying that, look at your existing POS terminal. Does it have a slot somewhere to insert a card?
Most likely, if you had replaced your POS terminal within the past five years, you already have an EMV capable terminal. EMV is basically just not turned on yet from the processor and acquirer side.
If you have an EMV capable terminal, then a best bet would be to contact your acquirer to have the EMV feature turned on. You did your end of the deal already by having an EMV capable terminal, it is now the acquirers' responsibility to turn it on in accordance to the EMV switchover mandate.
And if you don't, you are going to replace your POS terminal anyway from common wear and tear. It isn't a hard switch-over. You can continue to use your POS terminal until it dies out because EMV cardholders will still have the mag-stripe on the back. And by the time your non-EMV capable POS terminal is up for replacement the market will be full with these newer POS terminals that can accept the mag-stripe, EMV, as well as contactless payments.
In addition, you may also want to check with your acquirer or processor about EMV capable terminals. Some of them are willing to replace your terminal for free in preparation for the US EMV switchover. Call and ask for details.
But what's in it for me? I'm the one that has to pay for the upgrade.
All the major card networks have given incentives for merchants for the upcoming EMV switchover.
If 75% or more of your credit card transactions are done on an EMV contact and contactless terminal, they are going to waive your annual PCI-DSS fees, which usually costs you around $5.00-$19.95/month per terminal. The overall long term cost savings of those compliance fees will be larger than the cost of an one time upgrade for the terminal.
The downside is that once EMV switchover happens and if you do not have a POS terminal that is able to accept EMV, the fraud liability shifts over to the merchant.
I own several fast food franchises. If I upgrade my POS terminals at all of my restaurants, it's going to cost me thousands, if not millions. I don't think anyone is going to use a fake credit card to buy $5 burgers. And if they do, wouldn't it be cheaper for me to eat the fraud cost?
Remember also that fraud isn't just committed by dishonest customers using fraudulent cards. Fraud can also happen with dishonest employees skimming off credit card data from the mag-stripe as in the case of a teenage McDonald's drive thru employee skimming off $13,000 of customers' credit cards in Olympia, WA. Consider the public relations fall out that your business may have if this happens (i.e. the big Target breach of 2013, where someone used a mag stripe card to load malware INTO Target's system). Is it worth risking to take such a huge PR disaster?
USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature) [2012-2015]
Sep 6, 2012, 2:45 pm
#361
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,740
Is this a necessity that in everyone of your posts detailing your troubles in dealing with the cashiers in foreign countries you have to use a somewhat derogatory form? So you think you are superior than this "lowly pay minimum wage earning cashiers" who try to make an honorable living and are afraid of losing their jobs for doing something does not seem normal to them?
What a snobbish statement you are making in virtually every post you have about dealing with working people in other countries. So you think you are the "superior" tourist visiting their countries and they deserved to be looked down upon?!
A lot of times, a friendly gesture, a patient attitude and a smile go a long way - here and aboard.
What a snobbish statement you are making in virtually every post you have about dealing with working people in other countries. So you think you are the "superior" tourist visiting their countries and they deserved to be looked down upon?!
A lot of times, a friendly gesture, a patient attitude and a smile go a long way - here and aboard.
My experience in Prague and Brno was the exact opposite of yours two years ago when I was there. Lowly paid minimum wage earning cashiers just didn't want to deal with the hassle of processing mag-stripes for the sake of "corporate policy" or "scared I might do it wrong" or whatever they had in mind.
Add in the wasted time in calling a supervisor or manager, arguing with them with the minute intricate details of credit card policies (like they give a ...., seriously), with the other guy speaking in Czech with me in English, with other irritated customers behind you staring at you like you're hogging up the line, it's soooooo much easier to just whip out a card that has a chip than dealing with all this.
And noting from personal experience that it can be a hit or miss, "but I had no problems using my mag-stripe only CapOne card in _____" versus "but my experience in trying to use the mag-stripe only CapOne card in _____ wasn't the case", heck, I'll just prepare myself with a card that has both the mag-stripe and the EMV. There, now I'm covered for both cases. Problem solved. Simple as that. Whereas the CapOne card used to be my preferred card abroad, it is now at the bottom of the list and my Chase Hyatt with EMV chip is the first thing that I whip out when I travel abroad today.
Like I said, "right tools for the right job." While others maybe fine to make fire by rubbing sticks together, I'd rather just whip out my Zippo lighter.
And if people are fine with wasting 10-15 minutes of their lives everywhere they go where change is happening (we're not the only country making labor cut backs to save a nickel or a Euro cent or a yen or whatever - "anything that can be automated will become automated"), that's their choice. In the meantime, l'll just whip out my Chase Hyatt card or my Andrews FCU card instead. While others who haven't prepared get to enjoy the experience of standing in long lines at the train stations like cattle and seeing their trains go by, I just head straight for the automated machines, use an EMV card and get going.
Besides, for the cost of nothing (Chase Hyatt has $75 annual fee but you get two free Hyatt nights anywhere in the world so net annual in my view is zero, BofA Travel Rewards has no annual fee, Andrews FCU also has no annual fee), it saves me hassle abroad. If it costs me nothing to help make my life easier, all the better.
Add in the wasted time in calling a supervisor or manager, arguing with them with the minute intricate details of credit card policies (like they give a ...., seriously
), with the other guy speaking in Czech with me in English, with other irritated customers behind you staring at you like you're hogging up the line, it's soooooo much easier to just whip out a card that has a chip than dealing with all this. And noting from personal experience that it can be a hit or miss, "but I had no problems using my mag-stripe only CapOne card in _____" versus "but my experience in trying to use the mag-stripe only CapOne card in _____ wasn't the case", heck, I'll just prepare myself with a card that has both the mag-stripe and the EMV. There, now I'm covered for both cases. Problem solved. Simple as that. Whereas the CapOne card used to be my preferred card abroad, it is now at the bottom of the list and my Chase Hyatt with EMV chip is the first thing that I whip out when I travel abroad today.
Like I said, "right tools for the right job." While others maybe fine to make fire by rubbing sticks together, I'd rather just whip out my Zippo lighter.
And if people are fine with wasting 10-15 minutes of their lives everywhere they go where change is happening (we're not the only country making labor cut backs to save a nickel or a Euro cent or a yen or whatever - "anything that can be automated will become automated"), that's their choice. In the meantime, l'll just whip out my Chase Hyatt card or my Andrews FCU card instead. While others who haven't prepared get to enjoy the experience of standing in long lines at the train stations like cattle and seeing their trains go by, I just head straight for the automated machines, use an EMV card and get going.
Besides, for the cost of nothing (Chase Hyatt has $75 annual fee but you get two free Hyatt nights anywhere in the world so net annual in my view is zero, BofA Travel Rewards has no annual fee, Andrews FCU also has no annual fee), it saves me hassle abroad. If it costs me nothing to help make my life easier, all the better.
Sep 6, 2012, 2:52 pm
#362
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,740
A chipped B of A 1-2-3 card is available upon request. However, other than the grandfathered holders of the late Schwab card who were dumped into the 1-2-3 card and were granted amnesty from the hideous foreign transaction fee of 3%, all other 1-2-3 cards I believe that have no annual fees have that immoral 3% foreign transaction fee. But as I said, upon request, they will issue a chipped version.
However, B of A has a new card, the travel rewards card with no annual fee, no foreign transaction fee and is always available as a chipped card.
As it stands today, the late Schwab card doing business as a 1-2-3 card, does not charge a foreign transaction fee but that is subject to change, not that I am saying it is going to happen soon, at any time.
However, B of A has a new card, the travel rewards card with no annual fee, no foreign transaction fee and is always available as a chipped card.
As it stands today, the late Schwab card doing business as a 1-2-3 card, does not charge a foreign transaction fee but that is subject to change, not that I am saying it is going to happen soon, at any time.
The question of the pin is an interesting one. I was under the illusion that the pin was only for use in cash advance transactions and had nothing to do with the chip (people have explained it's a difference between off line authorization and onb line authorization). Having said that, some have reported that in some places despite the fact the card is chip and signature a pin is requested and insertioin of the atm pin has worked although others believe you can enter most any 4 digit number in those circumstances and it will worki although the number of examples at least at present is few and far between.
Sep 6, 2012, 3:37 pm
#363
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: LAX
Programs: AA EXP 1.5MM, Asiana Club Silver, KE Morning Calm, Hyatt Platinum, Amtrak Select
Posts: 7,161
The point is its a waste of time for both me and them. They have to deal with the stress of trying to do something they're not accustomed and trained to do. I have to deal with the stress of trying to convey that in a different language. They have to deal with the stress in calling over their supervisor or manager because they are just following procedure and not high enough to make decisions. I have to deal with the stress of waiting longer until those that have higher authority show up. And by this time we both are in a stressful situation with a huge backlog of customers standing in line.
Hence, that is why I specifically mentioned that:
Originally Posted by kebosabi
Add in the wasted time in calling a supervisor or manager, arguing with them with the minute intricate details of credit card policies (like they give a ...., seriously ), with the other guy speaking in Czech with me in English, with other irritated customers behind you staring at you like you're hogging up the line, it's soooooo much easier to just whip out a card that has a chip than dealing with all this.
), with the other guy speaking in Czech with me in English, with other irritated customers behind you staring at you like you're hogging up the line, it's soooooo much easier to just whip out a card that has a chip than dealing with all this.So what's the simplest answer?
Just whip out a chipped card that they're more accustomed to. That saves both hassles for me, them and the rest of the people behind me.
What's so snobbish about that?
Besides, smiles and politeness may go a long way between you and the cashier, but in the view of others, they don't give a crap, they just want to move along.
It's just like at the supermarket, the bank, the post office, the DMV, the fast food place, the airline check-in counter, the misinformed TSA document checker who refuses my NEXUS card for not being "valid ID," or any other place where a person goes on an extended chat with the cashier as he/she didn't give a crap about the long lines of irritated customers standing in line thinking "just shut the .... up and get going!"
So are you saying I should be selfish to conjure up an extended chat with the cashier with smiles and politeness to go on a 5-10 minute diatribe about credit card processing and expect everyone else behind me to deal with it with more patience?
Yeah smiles and politeiness and patience plays a big role between you and the cashier. Too bad not everyone standing in line feels the same way. With that in mind, I also factor in the consideration of other customers as well. Smiles and politeness doesn't necessarily mean everyone else would be patient about it.
Hence, it's faster and much less hassle for me, the cashier, and in consideration of others behind me, to just whip out my chipped card and get going.
Last edited by kebosabi; Sep 6, 2012 at 4:07 pm
Sep 6, 2012, 7:14 pm
#364
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
I am afraid when you request a CHIP version of the old Schwab refugee you would "accidentally" lose the 0% forex fee feature, knowing how BofA can screw up... Exchange it to the Travel Reward card might be a better option if that is allowed without a hard pull. I am not one who would waste a hard pull just to get a CHIP card when the sign up bonuses are still pretty good these days and any hard pull must produce some potential bonus.
A couple years ago a friend tried to buy train ticket in some European country - now I forgot which one - there was an attendant but he insisted my friend to insert his card in the machine and punch in a PIN. My friend just punched 9999 and it worked. Out spit the ticket, left him wonder how "secured" such CHIP card was as the "security" is the very much touted feature of the CHIP card.
A couple years ago a friend tried to buy train ticket in some European country - now I forgot which one - there was an attendant but he insisted my friend to insert his card in the machine and punch in a PIN. My friend just punched 9999 and it worked. Out spit the ticket, left him wonder how "secured" such CHIP card was as the "security" is the very much touted feature of the CHIP card.
I also have the Andrews card but as we all know, it has a 1% foreign transaction fee. My main airline card is from AA which I've kept despite the annual fee but of course it's not helpful because the 3% foreign transaction fee (and no I will not spring for $495 or whatever it is for their executive ppremium card). That last card is barely used now and I really ought to dump it.
Such heavy decisions when I travel. Keeps me up awake at night!
Sep 6, 2012, 7:47 pm
#365
Suspended
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Bay Area
Programs: DL SM, UA MP.
Posts: 12,729
Is the BofA chipped card of the previous Schwab card suppose to be Chip and PIN or Chip and Signature?
Sep 6, 2012, 8:04 pm
#366
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
It's chip and signature as are all of the new emv cards announced by BofA in July (I think at least one of their business cards is chip and pin but I don't know which one or don't vouch for that).
Sep 7, 2012, 5:20 am
#367
Suspended
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Bay Area
Programs: DL SM, UA MP.
Posts: 12,729
I hope the card issuers realize that chip and signature with no offline authentication is an interim measure at best.
They better be planning to migrate to full global compatibility at some point.
Or else we might as well wait for NFC or some other mobile device solution.
They better be planning to migrate to full global compatibility at some point.
Or else we might as well wait for NFC or some other mobile device solution.
Sep 7, 2012, 8:03 am
#368
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: LAX
Programs: AA EXP 1.5MM, Asiana Club Silver, KE Morning Calm, Hyatt Platinum, Amtrak Select
Posts: 7,161
If you need Chip-and-PIN so badly, why don't you just get an Andrews FCU or State Dept FCU card?
You're repeatedly complaining that "we need full Chip-and-PIN" or "Chip-and-Signature is not enough" when Chip-and-PIN solutions exist. I can understand complaints when it was like 2 years where we had absolutely no options or about a year ago when Chip-and-Signature was the only option.
But today, we DO have full Chip-and-PIN options through two CUs today that is available and open to all Americans.
I don't understand what's so difficult about that. If you have the time pouting and complaining that you don't have full Chip-and-PIN in your hands or that Chip-and-Signature by the big name banks isn't enough, why don't you just go spend the same time to apply for the AndrewsFCU Globetrek or the State Dept FCU cards?
I mean, wouldn't it be better to just get it done and over with (especially if it costs nothing with no annual fee) than complaining with similar posts over and over again?
Last edited by kebosabi; Sep 7, 2012 at 8:13 am
Sep 7, 2012, 9:16 am
#369
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 6,423
An alternative is to get a secured card. Deposit some amount with them, then the can hold that as security on the card. Given today's interest rates, it's not a very costly proposition in terms of foregone interest.
Sep 7, 2012, 9:59 am
#370
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: LAX
Programs: AA EXP 1.5MM, Asiana Club Silver, KE Morning Calm, Hyatt Platinum, Amtrak Select
Posts: 7,161
If enough people write their legislators that laws need to be adapted to changing times to allow CUs the same flexibility as banks when it comes to conventional loans (credit cards are technically classified as loans) then it'll get easier. Of course, I'm pretty sure the lobbyists representing the big name banks would go bat-.... insane to block such measures as it'll end up hurting their business.
Otherwise, the law stands as it exists today in which it'll be lots of paperwork to get a card from a CU. OTOH, you only have to go through the process only once.
Last edited by kebosabi; Sep 7, 2012 at 10:31 am
Sep 7, 2012, 11:27 am
#371
Suspended
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Bay Area
Programs: DL SM, UA MP.
Posts: 12,729
I'd rather wait for cards from more mainstream institutions. Already a member of a couple of regional credit unions.
There is no urgency to get a chip and PIN right now. I am able to work around, either using cash or being able to use my mag stripe cards.
Again, Visa supposedly has an initiative (linked early in this thread) so eventually, I'm expecting that this no longer becomes an issue.
But chip and signature is a waste of time.
There is no urgency to get a chip and PIN right now. I am able to work around, either using cash or being able to use my mag stripe cards.
Again, Visa supposedly has an initiative (linked early in this thread) so eventually, I'm expecting that this no longer becomes an issue.
But chip and signature is a waste of time.
Sep 7, 2012, 11:45 am
#372
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 6,423
At this point, I'm likely to get a chip & pin from SDFCU, secured by a deposit, then switch out once more mainstream institutions offer chip & pin on reasonable terms (or just stay with SDFCU if I've been happy).
It isn't worth the effort to lobby legislators to change credit union regulation.
It isn't worth the effort to lobby legislators to change credit union regulation.
Sep 7, 2012, 12:11 pm
#373
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: LAX
Programs: AA EXP 1.5MM, Asiana Club Silver, KE Morning Calm, Hyatt Platinum, Amtrak Select
Posts: 7,161
I'd rather wait for cards from more mainstream institutions. Already a member of a couple of regional credit unions.
There is no urgency to get a chip and PIN right now. I am able to work around, either using cash or being able to use my mag stripe cards.
Again, Visa supposedly has an initiative (linked early in this thread) so eventually, I'm expecting that this no longer becomes an issue.
But chip and signature is a waste of time.
There is no urgency to get a chip and PIN right now. I am able to work around, either using cash or being able to use my mag stripe cards.
Again, Visa supposedly has an initiative (linked early in this thread) so eventually, I'm expecting that this no longer becomes an issue.
But chip and signature is a waste of time.
If you desire Chip & PIN, get one via Andrews FCU or SDFCU.
If not, until then, the only option is Chip-and-Signature, which is still way better than just a plain old magnetic stripe.
If you don't see an urgency for Chip-and-PIN, wait it out until the big banks get their systems up and ready. With the amount of customers and branches big name banks have, the backend hardware needed to implement full Chip-and-PIN isn't gonna happen at a flick of a switch like smaller CUs can which has less accounts and branches to worry about.
As it stands now, some big name banks have started to do exactly that. Wells Fargo recently announced a full Chip-and-PIN card for their wealthiest of their clients (those that have $1M in WF accounts).
Just wait it out and be patient. It will trickle down eventually to everyone.
What started as a EMV Chip-and-Signature card for the uber-rich via the Chase Palladium card a year ago made it's way to BofA's recent announcement of mass rolling out EMV Chip-and-Signature upgrade option to practically almost all of their card line up two months ago. All of that happened within a year.
I expect the same level of competition happen as big banks install all their hardware necessary to get Chip-and-PIN rolling. If WF started off with bringing in Chip-and-PIN to their wealthiest of clients, by the same time next year, it maybe the case where we may have Citi, Chase, and BofA doing the same for all their card line ups.
If you don't want to wait that long or expect it to take much longer than that, get an Andrews FCU or SDFCU card for the time being while you wait.
The options we have is totally different from 2 years ago where there was absolutely nothing and no banks or any US financial institution for that matter were even considering doing EMV (Chip-and-Signature or PIN).
You have a lot of better options today. If there are options, you don't need to constantly whine about it sounding like there's nothing available.
Last edited by kebosabi; Sep 7, 2012 at 12:26 pm
Sep 7, 2012, 12:16 pm
#374
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: BUR / LAX
Programs: UA MM/Gold; WN A-list; HH something depending; Marriott Gold
Posts: 1,546
I'm headed to Turkey soon. Anyone have experience with stripe or chip+signature there?
Sorry if slightly off topic; feel free to PM me if you prefer.
Sorry if slightly off topic; feel free to PM me if you prefer.
Sep 7, 2012, 12:31 pm
#375
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: LAX
Programs: AA EXP 1.5MM, Asiana Club Silver, KE Morning Calm, Hyatt Platinum, Amtrak Select
Posts: 7,161
Was on a cruise with my Japanese ex-girlfriend four years ago touring Greek islands and several port cities in Turkey.
Some merchants in Turkey were reluctant to accept my US issued swipe-only credit card. Wouldn't let me use it since I had no passport or ID to prove that I was the cardholder (cruise ship kept our passports).
My Japanese girlfriend at the time had a chipped Japan-issued VISA card and they were happy to take those. I ended up asking her to use her card instead and I paid her in JPY back in Japan.
Got back on cruise ship and inquired about why was the case. They mentioned that they some Turkish merchants instituted policies of refusing mag-stripe only cards because of the amount of skimmed card frauds they received in the past. People from Romania or Bulgaria would come and visit Turkey and buy stuff with cloned mag-stripes and got away with their goods, with Turkish merchants holding up the short end of the stick of fraud. Those that experienced those cases ended up implementing a blanket no mag-stripe policy.
Last edited by kebosabi; Sep 7, 2012 at 12:37 pm