Sep 20, 2013, 11:40 am
Last edit by: philemer
Posts from 1/1/16 onward can be found here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credit-card-programs/1739359-2016-onward-usa-emv-cards-availability-q-chip-pin-signature.html
EMV wikipost volunteers: kebosabi
What is EMV?
EMV is a defacto global standard of technology where there is a visible microchip on the front of the card. It looks like this:
Who issues them?
See Google Docs spreadsheet in Post #1
SFOAMS also has created a list of excellent webpage that shows US EMV cards in a more interactive interface
Another site, which lets you narrow the search for an EMV card by various parameters, is http://www.spotterswiki.com/emv/index.php.
Several credit unions issue some form of Chip-and-PIN credit cards or prepaid cards. Prepaid EMV cards however are not recommended due to junk fees. USAA (currently restricted to members of military) used to offer Chip-and-PIN cards, but as late has backtracked to Chip-and-Signature priority.
Hey that's a cool Google Docs list! I know others that aren't on that list. How can I help by adding them to the list?
My bad for not putting this into the wiki sooner. Right now, the Google Docs is locked out of editing and only in "read-only" view because there were instances in the past where people would just delete the rows not thinking that it affects others viewing the list.
If you promise not to delete any rows and input all the pertinent info (annual fee, rewards, FTF, etc.), I can provide you with edit access. Just shoot me a PM to kebosabi with your gmail address and I'll provide you edit access.
Thanks for helping out!
As of October 2014, no USA-based card issuer offers Chip-and-PIN priority cards except for BMO Harris (Diners Club) and UN Federal Credit Union. Other major USA-based banks such as BofA, Chase, Citi, as well as others issue Chip-and-Signature cards which may work at many automated kiosks. However, bear in mind the word may is used above is a context where there is no absolute certainty of success for certain environments such as automated kiosks due to different natures of offline and online transactions. It is highly recommended to read Post #3 which lists real life FTer examples on how Chip-and-Signature worked and did not work at various transaction environments.
Can I upgrade it right now?
If it's listed on that Google Docs spreadsheet or SFOAMS' Silk page, wouldn't hurt to call/twitter them for a free upgrade. If you get the response you don't like, hang up, try again.
What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN?
You insert the chipped card into the slot. The physical contact terminal will read the EMV chip and the terminal will automatically read the preferred cardholder verification methods (called CVM) for that card.
Chip-and-Signature means that the terminal will printout a receipt for you to sign. This is the most prevalent authentication for most US issued EMV cards. Chip-and-Signature helps in a way that it will get through to face-to-face merchant transactions where you and the merchant do not speak the same language.
Chip-and-PIN means that the terminal will prompt you to input a PIN for authentication. Some credit union issued credit cards will have this CVM as secondary if Chip-and-Signature cannot be done. Chip-and-PIN is the more prevalent method of authentication used outside the US, especially in transaction environments where no human interaction is needed (i.e. automated gas pumps, toll roads, train kiosks, etc.).
The Google Docs spreadsheet will list which CVM are used in the EMV cards listed. Some cards can only do Chip-and-Signature. Other cards can do both Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN. And others might have a third option called No CVM (no authentication needed) which is reserved for low value transactions.
One chip can hold a lot more data, therefore it is capable of doing multiple verification methods. That's one of the great things about EMV over the mag-stripe which can hold very little data.
I want to know for sure what my EMV chip does. Is there anyway I can test out my own EMV card to see what the CVM list is?
alexmt has written up a nice step-by-step procedure on Post #3615.
If most of the EMV cards in the US is the Chip-and-Signature type, doesn't that mean it's still useless abroad?
Depends if you see it as glass half empty or glass half full. See Post #3 for further details on how Chip-and-Signature has worked both successfully and unsuccessfully depending on the merchant transaction environment and use your best judgment whether which one is right for you.
Are there any places in the US that are accepting transactions via the EMV chip?
tmiw has created a dedicated Google maps webpage to show where EMV has been proven to work here: http://emvacceptedhere.com/ Per his Post #4240, feel free to add any places with active EMV terminals if you come across one.
As of 2014/05, the EMV terminals in most Walmarts and Sam's Clubs are being turned on. Hence, the best place to try them out would be your local Walmart or Sam's Club. For other merchants, it's slowly being phased in.
I hope people will post them in the Post your receipt of your 1st EMV based transaction in the US thread. cvarming has shown us an EMV transaction receipt from Brooklyn, NY in Post #2380. I myself had my first EMV based (Chip-and-Signature) transaction in two stores in the Los Angeles area, as shown in detail in Post #2705 (courtesy of WhatWhatTech for pointing these two stores out)
I don't want a chip in my card. I heard horror stories all over the media saying hackers can steal my credit card info from a mile away.
There are two types of chips. One is contactless and the other is contact. Cards can be either one or the other, or both.
In the Google Docs spreadsheet, the cards that are capable of contactless payments are listed seperately under the "RFID or NFC contactless chip" column. If it says yes, then that means it has the ability to do contactless payments. If it says no, it doesn't have that feature.
The one that the media has overhyped about hackers "stealing your information wirelessly" was the contactless type like this:
You are worried about this happening, right?
You don't have to worry. EMV is a chip standard that can have both contact and contactless interfaces. With the traditional contact interface, this means you actually have to physically insert the chip into a POS terminal for it to be authorized, like this:
With the contact interface, nothing is wireless. No data is sent out in a stand-alone contact type EMV chip. With the EMV contactless interface, data is sent wirelessly.
Furthermore, contactless chip cards are required to show a symbol (looks like Wi-Fi symbol) somewhere on the card that to denote it's capability as a contactless card. For example, here's an example of a Discover Card with contactless capability (in which Discover calls "Discover ZIP") showing the contactless symbol on the back of the card:
Don't believe everything that the media says. Besides, millions of people all over the world from London to Singapore, uses contactless payments daily in extremely crowded subways and mass transit with nary any problems. There are multiple layers of encrypted securities and keys that are needed to break the code.
Frankly, giving your physical card to a waiter/waitress who takes the card out of your view is much more susceptible to fraud than contactless payments.
Why should I care?
If you are an international traveler, you will want this because majority of the world has or in the process of converting to this payment format.
In fact, in 2012, even North Korea moved to the EMV format, leaving the US as one of the countries in the world that hasn't done so.
In addition, VISA, MC, AMEX, and Discover have all agreed to incentivize the USA shifting to EMV payments by 2015 by shifting liability for fraudulent transactions to merchants if they do not have EMV equipment and the cardholder has an EMV card. So if you travel internationally or would like to get one before the others, you might be interested in getting one.
BS! I had no problems using my card in [insert whereever country], [insert whatever point in time]
If you stick to the tourist path where they have lots of visitors from the US, you should have no problems using your mag-stripe only card in hotels and restaurants, at least for now. But as things can change as things go forward.
However, consider that once you start taking the off-beaten path, go to non-touristy places where they are not familiar with mag-stripes, rent a car and use toll roads, fill up gas, or try to buy train tickets you might end up into a trouble of the machine not recognizing your card because it lacks the chip. Furthermore, a lot of toll roads, gas pumps, and automated ticket machines lack any human assistance to help you when you need it the most.
But [insert credit card company] told me all merchants that display their logo must accept them! All I have to do is report them for violating their agreements, right?
There are several factors against this.
1. You can only speak English. The merchant representative, most likely a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, speaks in a different language, let's say French. If you have no French language skills, how are you going to get your point across? Are you going to whip out your cell phone at exorbitant int'l roaming charges and hope the customer service is going to translate it for you on the spot? Or maybe you might actually know French. But how about Swahili, Farsi, Balinese, or the multiple languages in mainland China?
2. Just like US, the rest of the world's businesses uses part-time minimum wage workers as cashiers to cut down on labor costs. Most of their SOP training manuals are written by MBA types to not to do anything they are not familiar with. Do not expect them to understand the intricate details of credit card mumbo jumbo. You don't expect Taco Bell employees to understand the minute details of Discover-JCB-Union Pay agreements, right? Same thing the other way around: be respectful as a guest in their country, prepare in advance in their ways, avoid being an "ugly American" stereotype.
3. You are a guest in their country. You are a minority. If 99.9% of their country's people and other tourists from around the world uses EMV, do you really think they are going to accomodate the 0.1% of American tourists who only have mag-stripes credit cards?
4. Again, you are a guest in their country. How would you, as an American standing in line, react if a Chinese tourist was clogging up the lines at a local Taco Bell because the clerk doesn't understand the Discover-Union Pay agreement and has trouble communicating between Mandarin spoken by the tourist and English spoken by the Taco Bell clerk? Same way the other way around. You do not want to clog up the lines for everyone. The less hassle, the better.
5. VISA and MC make tons of money from merchants in that country. Say SNCF French Rail. It's a billion dollar company in France. Do you think VISA is going to pull the plug of their relationship with SNCF because SNCF refuses to do mag-stripe processing at their unmanned train station kiosk? Of course not. Be realistic.
6. And lastly, if you're up against an unstaffed toll kiosk, gas pump or train ticket machine, are you going to yell curses at the machine?
But I want my credit card to be able to be used in the US too!
No worries. They have not gotten rid of the mag-stripe on the back of the card for backward compatibility reasons, just like we still have embossed numbers on our cards for backwards compatibility to using those old carbon copy imprinters.
[insert own Hyatt card image front and back together with red arrows pointing to all the backward compatibility features]
You use the chip on the front of the card abroad (for now), and the mag-stripe just like any other card for the US. Basically, you're increasing your credit card's acceptance rate by getting a card that both via the chip and the mag-stripe. You're getting a better deal for free.
And when 2015 comes along and US switches to EMV, you'll be way ahead of everyone else too!
So why did the rest of the world and the US moved/moving toward EMV?
Primarily, due to fraud concerns. You see, the mag-stripe has been with us since the 1950s. It may have been the most high tech thing back in the day, but with the technology that is available today, any shmo can pick up a $100 USB magnetic card skimming device off of eBay and get your credit card info.
And unlike skimming off contactless cards which actually need the person to have l33t programming skills, skimming off a magnetic stripe has become so ubiquitous that nary a day goes about skimming fraud going on somewhere in America, from gas pumps, Michael's stores (2011), Target breaches (2013), restaurant waiters/waitresses, to even McDonald's drive thrus.
https://www.google.com/search?q=skimming+fraud
These type of fraud used to be prevalent in Europe. But once they started switching over to EMV starting over 2 decades ago, this type of fraud went elsewhere. It went over to Asia, Canada and Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. until they too began implementing EMV to combat skimming fraud. The US is practically the only country left that hasn't done so, therefore all the fraud that used to take place elsewhere is now happening here.
But EMV is old and it's not fool proof. Shouldn't we just skip over it and do something new instead?
Yes, EMV is old. It was developed in the 1990s and its smart card payment predecessor was first introduced in France. But as of today, it has become the defacto global standard of payments.
But then, what else is there? There is no other de facto global standard of payments alternative. For example, if we decide to skip over it and do something new, hypothetically like DNA matching technology, it still means US int'l travelers will continue to have problems abroad with useless plastic acceptance because no other country is using this DNA matching technology except the US.
Besides, nothing is fool proof. You can say that the bank vault isn't fool proof because you can crack it open if enough C4 is used. But your average low-life scumbag isn't likely to get military grade C4 easily either. But the bank vault does make it harder to get the bank's money over say a petty cash box. That's the point here. EMV is akin to a security tight bank vault, the old mag-stripe is akin to a petty cash box lying around inside the drawer.
I'm a business owner and I don't think EMV is going to take off. I'm not going to spend extra hundreds of dollars to upgrade my credit card machine. Convince me other wise why I should.
I can understand the added extra cost to your business once this switchover takes place. But before even saying that, look at your existing POS terminal. Does it have a slot somewhere to insert a card?
Most likely, if you had replaced your POS terminal within the past five years, you already have an EMV capable terminal. EMV is basically just not turned on yet from the processor and acquirer side.
If you have an EMV capable terminal, then a best bet would be to contact your acquirer to have the EMV feature turned on. You did your end of the deal already by having an EMV capable terminal, it is now the acquirers' responsibility to turn it on in accordance to the EMV switchover mandate.
And if you don't, you are going to replace your POS terminal anyway from common wear and tear. It isn't a hard switch-over. You can continue to use your POS terminal until it dies out because EMV cardholders will still have the mag-stripe on the back. And by the time your non-EMV capable POS terminal is up for replacement the market will be full with these newer POS terminals that can accept the mag-stripe, EMV, as well as contactless payments.
In addition, you may also want to check with your acquirer or processor about EMV capable terminals. Some of them are willing to replace your terminal for free in preparation for the US EMV switchover. Call and ask for details.
But what's in it for me? I'm the one that has to pay for the upgrade.
All the major card networks have given incentives for merchants for the upcoming EMV switchover.
If 75% or more of your credit card transactions are done on an EMV contact and contactless terminal, they are going to waive your annual PCI-DSS fees, which usually costs you around $5.00-$19.95/month per terminal. The overall long term cost savings of those compliance fees will be larger than the cost of an one time upgrade for the terminal.
The downside is that once EMV switchover happens and if you do not have a POS terminal that is able to accept EMV, the fraud liability shifts over to the merchant.
I own several fast food franchises. If I upgrade my POS terminals at all of my restaurants, it's going to cost me thousands, if not millions. I don't think anyone is going to use a fake credit card to buy $5 burgers. And if they do, wouldn't it be cheaper for me to eat the fraud cost?
Remember also that fraud isn't just committed by dishonest customers using fraudulent cards. Fraud can also happen with dishonest employees skimming off credit card data from the mag-stripe as in the case of a teenage McDonald's drive thru employee skimming off $13,000 of customers' credit cards in Olympia, WA. Consider the public relations fall out that your business may have if this happens (i.e. the big Target breach of 2013, where someone used a mag stripe card to load malware INTO Target's system). Is it worth risking to take such a huge PR disaster?
EMV wikipost volunteers: kebosabi
What is EMV?
EMV is a defacto global standard of technology where there is a visible microchip on the front of the card. It looks like this:
Who issues them?
See Google Docs spreadsheet in Post #1
SFOAMS also has created a list of excellent webpage that shows US EMV cards in a more interactive interface
Another site, which lets you narrow the search for an EMV card by various parameters, is http://www.spotterswiki.com/emv/index.php.
Several credit unions issue some form of Chip-and-PIN credit cards or prepaid cards. Prepaid EMV cards however are not recommended due to junk fees. USAA (currently restricted to members of military) used to offer Chip-and-PIN cards, but as late has backtracked to Chip-and-Signature priority.
Hey that's a cool Google Docs list! I know others that aren't on that list. How can I help by adding them to the list?
My bad for not putting this into the wiki sooner. Right now, the Google Docs is locked out of editing and only in "read-only" view because there were instances in the past where people would just delete the rows not thinking that it affects others viewing the list.
If you promise not to delete any rows and input all the pertinent info (annual fee, rewards, FTF, etc.), I can provide you with edit access. Just shoot me a PM to kebosabi with your gmail address and I'll provide you edit access.
Thanks for helping out!
As of October 2014, no USA-based card issuer offers Chip-and-PIN priority cards except for BMO Harris (Diners Club) and UN Federal Credit Union. Other major USA-based banks such as BofA, Chase, Citi, as well as others issue Chip-and-Signature cards which may work at many automated kiosks. However, bear in mind the word may is used above is a context where there is no absolute certainty of success for certain environments such as automated kiosks due to different natures of offline and online transactions. It is highly recommended to read Post #3 which lists real life FTer examples on how Chip-and-Signature worked and did not work at various transaction environments.
Can I upgrade it right now?
If it's listed on that Google Docs spreadsheet or SFOAMS' Silk page, wouldn't hurt to call/twitter them for a free upgrade. If you get the response you don't like, hang up, try again.
What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN?
You insert the chipped card into the slot. The physical contact terminal will read the EMV chip and the terminal will automatically read the preferred cardholder verification methods (called CVM) for that card.
Chip-and-Signature means that the terminal will printout a receipt for you to sign. This is the most prevalent authentication for most US issued EMV cards. Chip-and-Signature helps in a way that it will get through to face-to-face merchant transactions where you and the merchant do not speak the same language.
Chip-and-PIN means that the terminal will prompt you to input a PIN for authentication. Some credit union issued credit cards will have this CVM as secondary if Chip-and-Signature cannot be done. Chip-and-PIN is the more prevalent method of authentication used outside the US, especially in transaction environments where no human interaction is needed (i.e. automated gas pumps, toll roads, train kiosks, etc.).
The Google Docs spreadsheet will list which CVM are used in the EMV cards listed. Some cards can only do Chip-and-Signature. Other cards can do both Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN. And others might have a third option called No CVM (no authentication needed) which is reserved for low value transactions.
One chip can hold a lot more data, therefore it is capable of doing multiple verification methods. That's one of the great things about EMV over the mag-stripe which can hold very little data.
I want to know for sure what my EMV chip does. Is there anyway I can test out my own EMV card to see what the CVM list is?
alexmt has written up a nice step-by-step procedure on Post #3615.
If most of the EMV cards in the US is the Chip-and-Signature type, doesn't that mean it's still useless abroad?
Depends if you see it as glass half empty or glass half full. See Post #3 for further details on how Chip-and-Signature has worked both successfully and unsuccessfully depending on the merchant transaction environment and use your best judgment whether which one is right for you.
Are there any places in the US that are accepting transactions via the EMV chip?
tmiw has created a dedicated Google maps webpage to show where EMV has been proven to work here: http://emvacceptedhere.com/ Per his Post #4240, feel free to add any places with active EMV terminals if you come across one.
As of 2014/05, the EMV terminals in most Walmarts and Sam's Clubs are being turned on. Hence, the best place to try them out would be your local Walmart or Sam's Club. For other merchants, it's slowly being phased in.
I hope people will post them in the Post your receipt of your 1st EMV based transaction in the US thread. cvarming has shown us an EMV transaction receipt from Brooklyn, NY in Post #2380. I myself had my first EMV based (Chip-and-Signature) transaction in two stores in the Los Angeles area, as shown in detail in Post #2705 (courtesy of WhatWhatTech for pointing these two stores out)
I don't want a chip in my card. I heard horror stories all over the media saying hackers can steal my credit card info from a mile away.
There are two types of chips. One is contactless and the other is contact. Cards can be either one or the other, or both.
In the Google Docs spreadsheet, the cards that are capable of contactless payments are listed seperately under the "RFID or NFC contactless chip" column. If it says yes, then that means it has the ability to do contactless payments. If it says no, it doesn't have that feature.
The one that the media has overhyped about hackers "stealing your information wirelessly" was the contactless type like this:
You are worried about this happening, right?
You don't have to worry. EMV is a chip standard that can have both contact and contactless interfaces. With the traditional contact interface, this means you actually have to physically insert the chip into a POS terminal for it to be authorized, like this:
With the contact interface, nothing is wireless. No data is sent out in a stand-alone contact type EMV chip. With the EMV contactless interface, data is sent wirelessly.
Furthermore, contactless chip cards are required to show a symbol (looks like Wi-Fi symbol) somewhere on the card that to denote it's capability as a contactless card. For example, here's an example of a Discover Card with contactless capability (in which Discover calls "Discover ZIP") showing the contactless symbol on the back of the card:
Don't believe everything that the media says. Besides, millions of people all over the world from London to Singapore, uses contactless payments daily in extremely crowded subways and mass transit with nary any problems. There are multiple layers of encrypted securities and keys that are needed to break the code.
Frankly, giving your physical card to a waiter/waitress who takes the card out of your view is much more susceptible to fraud than contactless payments.
Why should I care?
If you are an international traveler, you will want this because majority of the world has or in the process of converting to this payment format.
In fact, in 2012, even North Korea moved to the EMV format, leaving the US as one of the countries in the world that hasn't done so.
In addition, VISA, MC, AMEX, and Discover have all agreed to incentivize the USA shifting to EMV payments by 2015 by shifting liability for fraudulent transactions to merchants if they do not have EMV equipment and the cardholder has an EMV card. So if you travel internationally or would like to get one before the others, you might be interested in getting one.
BS! I had no problems using my card in [insert whereever country], [insert whatever point in time]
If you stick to the tourist path where they have lots of visitors from the US, you should have no problems using your mag-stripe only card in hotels and restaurants, at least for now. But as things can change as things go forward.
However, consider that once you start taking the off-beaten path, go to non-touristy places where they are not familiar with mag-stripes, rent a car and use toll roads, fill up gas, or try to buy train tickets you might end up into a trouble of the machine not recognizing your card because it lacks the chip. Furthermore, a lot of toll roads, gas pumps, and automated ticket machines lack any human assistance to help you when you need it the most.
But [insert credit card company] told me all merchants that display their logo must accept them! All I have to do is report them for violating their agreements, right?
There are several factors against this.
1. You can only speak English. The merchant representative, most likely a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, speaks in a different language, let's say French. If you have no French language skills, how are you going to get your point across? Are you going to whip out your cell phone at exorbitant int'l roaming charges and hope the customer service is going to translate it for you on the spot? Or maybe you might actually know French. But how about Swahili, Farsi, Balinese, or the multiple languages in mainland China?
2. Just like US, the rest of the world's businesses uses part-time minimum wage workers as cashiers to cut down on labor costs. Most of their SOP training manuals are written by MBA types to not to do anything they are not familiar with. Do not expect them to understand the intricate details of credit card mumbo jumbo. You don't expect Taco Bell employees to understand the minute details of Discover-JCB-Union Pay agreements, right? Same thing the other way around: be respectful as a guest in their country, prepare in advance in their ways, avoid being an "ugly American" stereotype.
3. You are a guest in their country. You are a minority. If 99.9% of their country's people and other tourists from around the world uses EMV, do you really think they are going to accomodate the 0.1% of American tourists who only have mag-stripes credit cards?
4. Again, you are a guest in their country. How would you, as an American standing in line, react if a Chinese tourist was clogging up the lines at a local Taco Bell because the clerk doesn't understand the Discover-Union Pay agreement and has trouble communicating between Mandarin spoken by the tourist and English spoken by the Taco Bell clerk? Same way the other way around. You do not want to clog up the lines for everyone. The less hassle, the better.
5. VISA and MC make tons of money from merchants in that country. Say SNCF French Rail. It's a billion dollar company in France. Do you think VISA is going to pull the plug of their relationship with SNCF because SNCF refuses to do mag-stripe processing at their unmanned train station kiosk? Of course not. Be realistic.
6. And lastly, if you're up against an unstaffed toll kiosk, gas pump or train ticket machine, are you going to yell curses at the machine?
But I want my credit card to be able to be used in the US too!
No worries. They have not gotten rid of the mag-stripe on the back of the card for backward compatibility reasons, just like we still have embossed numbers on our cards for backwards compatibility to using those old carbon copy imprinters.
[insert own Hyatt card image front and back together with red arrows pointing to all the backward compatibility features]
You use the chip on the front of the card abroad (for now), and the mag-stripe just like any other card for the US. Basically, you're increasing your credit card's acceptance rate by getting a card that both via the chip and the mag-stripe. You're getting a better deal for free.
And when 2015 comes along and US switches to EMV, you'll be way ahead of everyone else too!
So why did the rest of the world and the US moved/moving toward EMV?
Primarily, due to fraud concerns. You see, the mag-stripe has been with us since the 1950s. It may have been the most high tech thing back in the day, but with the technology that is available today, any shmo can pick up a $100 USB magnetic card skimming device off of eBay and get your credit card info.
And unlike skimming off contactless cards which actually need the person to have l33t programming skills, skimming off a magnetic stripe has become so ubiquitous that nary a day goes about skimming fraud going on somewhere in America, from gas pumps, Michael's stores (2011), Target breaches (2013), restaurant waiters/waitresses, to even McDonald's drive thrus.
https://www.google.com/search?q=skimming+fraud
These type of fraud used to be prevalent in Europe. But once they started switching over to EMV starting over 2 decades ago, this type of fraud went elsewhere. It went over to Asia, Canada and Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. until they too began implementing EMV to combat skimming fraud. The US is practically the only country left that hasn't done so, therefore all the fraud that used to take place elsewhere is now happening here.
But EMV is old and it's not fool proof. Shouldn't we just skip over it and do something new instead?
Yes, EMV is old. It was developed in the 1990s and its smart card payment predecessor was first introduced in France. But as of today, it has become the defacto global standard of payments.
But then, what else is there? There is no other de facto global standard of payments alternative. For example, if we decide to skip over it and do something new, hypothetically like DNA matching technology, it still means US int'l travelers will continue to have problems abroad with useless plastic acceptance because no other country is using this DNA matching technology except the US.
Besides, nothing is fool proof. You can say that the bank vault isn't fool proof because you can crack it open if enough C4 is used. But your average low-life scumbag isn't likely to get military grade C4 easily either. But the bank vault does make it harder to get the bank's money over say a petty cash box. That's the point here. EMV is akin to a security tight bank vault, the old mag-stripe is akin to a petty cash box lying around inside the drawer.
I'm a business owner and I don't think EMV is going to take off. I'm not going to spend extra hundreds of dollars to upgrade my credit card machine. Convince me other wise why I should.
I can understand the added extra cost to your business once this switchover takes place. But before even saying that, look at your existing POS terminal. Does it have a slot somewhere to insert a card?
Most likely, if you had replaced your POS terminal within the past five years, you already have an EMV capable terminal. EMV is basically just not turned on yet from the processor and acquirer side.
If you have an EMV capable terminal, then a best bet would be to contact your acquirer to have the EMV feature turned on. You did your end of the deal already by having an EMV capable terminal, it is now the acquirers' responsibility to turn it on in accordance to the EMV switchover mandate.
And if you don't, you are going to replace your POS terminal anyway from common wear and tear. It isn't a hard switch-over. You can continue to use your POS terminal until it dies out because EMV cardholders will still have the mag-stripe on the back. And by the time your non-EMV capable POS terminal is up for replacement the market will be full with these newer POS terminals that can accept the mag-stripe, EMV, as well as contactless payments.
In addition, you may also want to check with your acquirer or processor about EMV capable terminals. Some of them are willing to replace your terminal for free in preparation for the US EMV switchover. Call and ask for details.
But what's in it for me? I'm the one that has to pay for the upgrade.
All the major card networks have given incentives for merchants for the upcoming EMV switchover.
If 75% or more of your credit card transactions are done on an EMV contact and contactless terminal, they are going to waive your annual PCI-DSS fees, which usually costs you around $5.00-$19.95/month per terminal. The overall long term cost savings of those compliance fees will be larger than the cost of an one time upgrade for the terminal.
The downside is that once EMV switchover happens and if you do not have a POS terminal that is able to accept EMV, the fraud liability shifts over to the merchant.
I own several fast food franchises. If I upgrade my POS terminals at all of my restaurants, it's going to cost me thousands, if not millions. I don't think anyone is going to use a fake credit card to buy $5 burgers. And if they do, wouldn't it be cheaper for me to eat the fraud cost?
Remember also that fraud isn't just committed by dishonest customers using fraudulent cards. Fraud can also happen with dishonest employees skimming off credit card data from the mag-stripe as in the case of a teenage McDonald's drive thru employee skimming off $13,000 of customers' credit cards in Olympia, WA. Consider the public relations fall out that your business may have if this happens (i.e. the big Target breach of 2013, where someone used a mag stripe card to load malware INTO Target's system). Is it worth risking to take such a huge PR disaster?
USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature) [2012-2015]
Jul 15, 2014, 3:38 am
#5506
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
There are some other touchy issues at work here too which I brought up earlier and got slammed for and I don't want to bring politics into this nor do I say what I'm going to say with malice afore thought or am taking a position one way or another.
But what we in the USA call American exceptionalism and that thought is rammed down our throats again and again from childhood is looked on by others as American arrogance in some many different ways. Nothing wrong, of course, with thinking the way you do things is best but many others think we (Americans) carry it to a bit of extreme and almost want to do so many things differently just to be different.
I'll use an innocent example so as not to antagonize people. Take retaining an outdated system of measurements. Just about the whole world uses Celsius, we insist on retaining Farenheit. The whole world uses meters...easy 1000 meters is a kilometer. 8 kilometers is 8000 meters. There converted. How many yards in 8 miles? Which is easier to teach young people? Yes I know; cost to convert all the signs. For pete's sake, in the last decade, many European countries changed centuries old monetary units to a single currency. You think the average Dutchman wasn't confused for about a month in figuring out how many guilders is equivalent to 20 euro? Or I'm old enough to remember my first visit to Great Britain about two months after decimal date in 1971. They handled it. Yet as a beginning math teacher in the 60's, all we heard is the USA will soon be going metric. And then the American call it what you want crept in and basically some old fuddy duddys said why should we change. Our system works. True but then you have a situation which I have seen countless times at hotels in Europe where the American asks at the desk what the temperature is, is told its 12 degrees and the tourist having no idea of what kind of coat to wear. How much snow has fallen last night? Oh about 8 cm. and the American tourist looks at the person and has no clue if that's a lot.
I can do that with so many other things that are somewhat more controversial so I don't want to bring them up but it's hardly off topic. Much of the rest of the world has long since gong emv pin preferred and in many cases (and it is increasing. go to the Netherlands for example) has been causing more and more problem for people used to 21st century conveniences. Or maybe we should go back to Travelers Cheques (don't leave home without them) and queuing on arrival to exchange money. And yet, even today, I still see some Americans expecting people to take US dollars for anything (of course if you go to Ecuador, you won't have a problem as they've done away with the sucre and use US currency as their monetary unit).
Isn't it the same with this whole credit card mess we're going through? Oh the American system is better, it works and too bad about the rest of the world and globalisation. Is it American exceptionalism? Or is it ignorance? (And I've stayed away from political things but you know what I mean.
While I would not say this problem with having archaic credit cards is decades old, it certainly is self evident that much of the civilized world has gone one way and the US is stubbornly clinging to older ways of doing things either because we weren't first or we don't believe anybody can do things better than us. In my opinion, and flame me if you want, that's part of the problem here.
But what we in the USA call American exceptionalism and that thought is rammed down our throats again and again from childhood is looked on by others as American arrogance in some many different ways. Nothing wrong, of course, with thinking the way you do things is best but many others think we (Americans) carry it to a bit of extreme and almost want to do so many things differently just to be different.
I'll use an innocent example so as not to antagonize people. Take retaining an outdated system of measurements. Just about the whole world uses Celsius, we insist on retaining Farenheit. The whole world uses meters...easy 1000 meters is a kilometer. 8 kilometers is 8000 meters. There converted. How many yards in 8 miles? Which is easier to teach young people? Yes I know; cost to convert all the signs. For pete's sake, in the last decade, many European countries changed centuries old monetary units to a single currency. You think the average Dutchman wasn't confused for about a month in figuring out how many guilders is equivalent to 20 euro? Or I'm old enough to remember my first visit to Great Britain about two months after decimal date in 1971. They handled it. Yet as a beginning math teacher in the 60's, all we heard is the USA will soon be going metric. And then the American call it what you want crept in and basically some old fuddy duddys said why should we change. Our system works. True but then you have a situation which I have seen countless times at hotels in Europe where the American asks at the desk what the temperature is, is told its 12 degrees and the tourist having no idea of what kind of coat to wear. How much snow has fallen last night? Oh about 8 cm. and the American tourist looks at the person and has no clue if that's a lot.
I can do that with so many other things that are somewhat more controversial so I don't want to bring them up but it's hardly off topic. Much of the rest of the world has long since gong emv pin preferred and in many cases (and it is increasing. go to the Netherlands for example) has been causing more and more problem for people used to 21st century conveniences. Or maybe we should go back to Travelers Cheques (don't leave home without them) and queuing on arrival to exchange money. And yet, even today, I still see some Americans expecting people to take US dollars for anything (of course if you go to Ecuador, you won't have a problem as they've done away with the sucre and use US currency as their monetary unit).
Isn't it the same with this whole credit card mess we're going through? Oh the American system is better, it works and too bad about the rest of the world and globalisation. Is it American exceptionalism? Or is it ignorance? (And I've stayed away from political things but you know what I mean.
While I would not say this problem with having archaic credit cards is decades old, it certainly is self evident that much of the civilized world has gone one way and the US is stubbornly clinging to older ways of doing things either because we weren't first or we don't believe anybody can do things better than us. In my opinion, and flame me if you want, that's part of the problem here.
Jul 15, 2014, 3:42 am
#5507
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: HaMerkaz/Exit 145
Programs: UA, LY, BA, AA
Posts: 13,167
I agree that there's a stigma in America that we're always better than others, and it's not always the case. That's an issue with EMV - some have a hard time wrapping their head around the fact that Europe did it better than Murica.
That being said, I prefer Fahrenheit to Celsius, using both. F is much more precise than C. Don't care that C makes more "sense" in that water freezes at 0 and boils at 100. Or that most others use it.
That being said, I prefer Fahrenheit to Celsius, using both. F is much more precise than C. Don't care that C makes more "sense" in that water freezes at 0 and boils at 100. Or that most others use it.
Jul 15, 2014, 3:59 am
#5508
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
Sure, but if the two banks are coordinating properly, don't you think this could be automated? Just like we can currently set our credit cards to automatically pull funds from our checking accounts to pay in full every month, couldn't the transfer of the correct amount across the border also be set up to automatically happen each month?
But some economists claim it's just a matter of time before the USA and Canada (and probably Mexico) will have to form some sort of monetary union. They already have a name for the common currency which I forget right now. And then many of these issues will go away but that's still a ways down the track.
Jul 15, 2014, 4:13 am
#5509
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
I agree that there's a stigma in America that we're always better than others, and it's not always the case. That's an issue with EMV - some have a hard time wrapping their head around the fact that Europe did it better than Murica.
That being said, I prefer Fahrenheit to Celsius, using both. F is much more precise than C. Don't care that C makes more "sense" in that water freezes at 0 and boils at 100. Or that most others use it.
That being said, I prefer Fahrenheit to Celsius, using both. F is much more precise than C. Don't care that C makes more "sense" in that water freezes at 0 and boils at 100. Or that most others use it.
Jul 15, 2014, 4:20 am
#5510
Moderator: Manufactured Spending
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 6,580
There are some other touchy issues at work here too which I brought up earlier and got slammed for and I don't want to bring politics into this nor do I say what I'm going to say with malice afore thought or am taking a position one way or another.
But what we in the USA call American exceptionalism and that thought is rammed down our throats again and again from childhood is looked on by others as American arrogance in some many different ways.
But what we in the USA call American exceptionalism and that thought is rammed down our throats again and again from childhood is looked on by others as American arrogance in some many different ways.
Almost all countries that have switched to EMV did so because it made economic sense. Perhaps the phone network wasn't reliable enough to provide online authorizations, or perhaps there was simply too much fraud. The time has now come when EMV makes economic sense for the US, so therefore it is happening.
Jul 15, 2014, 6:09 am
#5511
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,060
But some economists claim it's just a matter of time before the USA and Canada (and probably Mexico) will have to form some sort of monetary union. They already have a name for the common currency which I forget right now. And then many of these issues will go away but that's still a ways down the track.
Jul 15, 2014, 6:37 am
#5512
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
This is unlikely to happen. The US would by far be the dominant player in this type of currency union compared to the Mexican and Canadian economies. Furthermore, two things need to be in place in order for a monetary union to work for economic reasons. The first condition is free movement of labor among countries in the union, which we don't have. (While the euro area has this in theory, the reality doesn't have too many people crossing the border.) The second is no preference for home produced goods, which we somewhat have. (Again, many in the euro area do show a preference for home produced goods.)
But I digress. In Europe, there is the Schengen agreement which has abolished border controls among all the nations that have joined. Interestingly enough, the Schengen agreement on immigration includes several non eu countries such as Switzerland and Norway. However, the UK has adamantly refused to join so you go through passport control when entering and leaving the UK even if coming from another eu country and has led to elaborate re-configuration of the major European airports. But, and here is where I may be very wrong, when I visit London almost all the waiters and clerks in many stores seem to be from other eu countries; I think as part of the eu agreement every citizen of an eu country can work elsewhere in the eu. Yet the UK continues to shun the euro..
Jul 15, 2014, 8:21 am
#5513
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: home = LAX
Posts: 25,933
I keep hearing this argument quite often. Can you explain your math because my math comes up close to 50% of the US populace (not just US citizens, must also count US immigrants living here legally or illegally) having the ability to travel internationally (internationally does not mean just Europe).
Let's simplify it.
Nearly 100% (the ones on the no-fly list being the main exceptions) of Americans have the ability to fly within America.
Yet most of the people I know do that at most only once every few years, if even that often.
Are there any statistics on how many Americans fly anywhere at least once a year, vs at least once a decade, vs even more rarely or never?
(And if you factor out flying, you've factored out international travel for a great many Americans, except those living close enough to Mexico to drive into there and those living close enough to Canada to drive into there. And is EMV yet all that needed in Mexico and Canada?)
Also, lots of the people who do travel internationally:
1. Travel for business reasons, and may have to use corporate credit cards anyway for business expenses.
2. If personal, travel to visit friends and family, stay with said friends and family, and have little opportunity to use credit cards on that trip.
3. If personal, go on prepaid tours, where the tour company has paid for almost everything.
4. Usually use cash already here at home in the US, so just use cash a lot overseas too! (These are obviously not FTers
!)5. Do so often enough to for them to be currently looking into credit cards? (If their next international trip isn't for 5 years, who cares?)
So the question is not how many people are able to travel internationally, it's the question of how many people actually travel internationally independently enough to use their own credit cards, soon enough, and who want to use credit cards as much as possible overseas.
Jul 15, 2014, 9:21 am
#5514
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: LAX
Programs: AA EXP 1.5MM, Asiana Club Silver, KE Morning Calm, Hyatt Platinum, Amtrak Select
Posts: 7,161
In the context of FT, should we change frequent flyer miles to frequent flyer kilometers? 
That being said, there are also places like Japan where they are officially on the metric system, but some things are still used in their old customary system. For example, most homes in Japan are sold not in square meters, but in a Japanese customary system called tsubo. Japanese sake aren't sold in liters, they are sold in a Japanese customary volume called shō (approx 1.804 L per bottle).
One could argue that this is more of a Japanese cultural aspect that shouldn't be changed similar to the insistence of American use of the imperial system to be a cultural aspect as well (kinda hard to get out of the "gallon of milk" mindset). Or not.
One must also factor in that it's also have become relatively easier for Americans to choose to use metric if they wish to do so too, thanks to smartphones.
For example, my smartphone is set to show in 24 hr time format with the HD widget showing temperature in Celsius and the GPS directions and distances set to metric system.
Cost wise, I think that's how it'll be in the near future with the dawn of the age of wearable devices and augmented reality: instead of the signs physically changing, the virtual signs will be set to whatever you prefer.
Fair enough. The problem I had with the statement "most people dont' travel internationally" as a blanket statement is that it usually automatically equates to "people don't fly to Europe that much" when in my view, "travelling internationally" can also mean driving 2 hrs down to Tijuana and having a guys night out at Avenida Revolución.
Or, it could just be that I myself have grown up in a family where travelling internationally doesn't come with this image of "oh you must be rich to travel all the time," when it's just simply that I have friends and family abroad (Canada and Japan) where going abroad every two or three times a year is nothing unusual nor has anything to do with being wealthy.
And frankly, born and raised in the 1980s in Los Angeles where majority of my friends and peers during grade school were children of immigrants themselves where it was nothing unusual to see my friends could be back in their home country of Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam, Philippines, Peru, El Salvador, Mexico, Belgium or Sweden during summer or winter break.
That being said, there are also places like Japan where they are officially on the metric system, but some things are still used in their old customary system. For example, most homes in Japan are sold not in square meters, but in a Japanese customary system called tsubo. Japanese sake aren't sold in liters, they are sold in a Japanese customary volume called shō (approx 1.804 L per bottle).
One could argue that this is more of a Japanese cultural aspect that shouldn't be changed similar to the insistence of American use of the imperial system to be a cultural aspect as well (kinda hard to get out of the "gallon of milk" mindset). Or not.
For example, my smartphone is set to show in 24 hr time format with the HD widget showing temperature in Celsius and the GPS directions and distances set to metric system.
Cost wise, I think that's how it'll be in the near future with the dawn of the age of wearable devices and augmented reality: instead of the signs physically changing, the virtual signs will be set to whatever you prefer.
So the question is not how many people are able to travel internationally, it's the question of how many people actually travel internationally independently enough to use their own credit cards, soon enough, and who want to use credit cards as much as possible overseas.
Or, it could just be that I myself have grown up in a family where travelling internationally doesn't come with this image of "oh you must be rich to travel all the time," when it's just simply that I have friends and family abroad (Canada and Japan) where going abroad every two or three times a year is nothing unusual nor has anything to do with being wealthy.
And frankly, born and raised in the 1980s in Los Angeles where majority of my friends and peers during grade school were children of immigrants themselves where it was nothing unusual to see my friends could be back in their home country of Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam, Philippines, Peru, El Salvador, Mexico, Belgium or Sweden during summer or winter break.
Last edited by kebosabi; Jul 15, 2014 at 10:22 am
Jul 15, 2014, 10:12 am
#5515
Join Date: May 2010
Location: ORDwest
Posts: 332
Then, United's MileagePlus program would have to be renamed "KilometersPlus," but since that's too much of a mouthful, we would abbreviate to KlicksPlus or maybe KlixPlus, which sounds kind of meaningless - just like the program it names. Oh, sorry - wrong thread...
Jul 15, 2014, 10:25 am
#5516
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
well you could retain some of the archaic measurements for a bit of time while people acomodate or even have a few cultural exceptions. Nobody wants bases to be anything but 90 feet apart on a baseball pitch oops field or change the distance between the goal lines in American football from 100 yards to some metric equivalent (even in Canada, their football fields are still denominated in yards not meters). And of course, many in the UK refer to weights of people or things not in terms of lbs. or kgs but stones (or is it stone?). And of course, at least the UK stood up to Brussels which imposed metric measurements on them and some of my friends in the UK still resent that (but then again they want to go back to £/s/d for currency) and has allowed them to retain their motorways denominated in miles obstensibly because of the costs of converting. (Although Ireland couldn't wait to get rid of miles)...
Jul 15, 2014, 10:30 am
#5517
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: DCA/IAD
Programs: AS, US, Hilton, BA, DL, SPG, AA, VS
Posts: 1,628
But that's about as close as you'd ever get to a monetary union in North America, and I don't even expect that to happen. As I said, there would a big fuss about it in both Canada and Mexico. And before anyone says that the US should be willing to move to another currency besides the US dollar - that will NEVER happen, for a variety of reasons, mostly political (and it shouldn't, IMO).
Jul 15, 2014, 10:36 am
#5518
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
Ditto. Just because everybody else is doing something doesn't necessarily make it better.
There are several countries other than the United States that use the US dollar as their official currency. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollarization. Scroll down to "Anchor currencies," and look under "Countries using the US dollar exclusively." If Mexico and/or Canada really wanted to adopt the US dollar (there would, of course, be a huge uproar in both countries), I imagine they could.
But that's about as close as you'd ever get to a monetary union in North America, and I don't even expect that to happen. As I said, there would a big fuss about it in both Canada and Mexico. And before anyone says that the US should be willing to move to another currency besides the US dollar - that will NEVER happen, for a variety of reasons, mostly political (and it shouldn't, IMO).
There are several countries other than the United States that use the US dollar as their official currency. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollarization. Scroll down to "Anchor currencies," and look under "Countries using the US dollar exclusively." If Mexico and/or Canada really wanted to adopt the US dollar (there would, of course, be a huge uproar in both countries), I imagine they could.
But that's about as close as you'd ever get to a monetary union in North America, and I don't even expect that to happen. As I said, there would a big fuss about it in both Canada and Mexico. And before anyone says that the US should be willing to move to another currency besides the US dollar - that will NEVER happen, for a variety of reasons, mostly political (and it shouldn't, IMO).
But then again, it is thought that in the 2nd half of the 21st century, both China and India have designed on world domination economically speaking and of course we know the eu wants to do the same with the euro. It is the opinion of some that the only available defense against this in North America would be a common North American currency. It is obviously not imminent but it would solve all the problems with credit cards and the like, wouldn't it?
Jul 15, 2014, 10:57 am
#5519
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,133
The latest Fox Business article quotes an expert who believes the US will follow the same path Australia has in that chip-and-PIN will slowly be introduced.
8 FAQs About New EMV Credit Cards
8 FAQs About New EMV Credit Cards
Once the transition to EMV is under way in the U.S., chip-and-PIN cards will be transitioned in. Again, it is one step at a time, according to Ferenczi.
"I predict we will start seeing some chip-and-PIN cards in 2015, and then it will probably take two to three years to fully convert to chip-and-PIN," he says.
Despite a slow transition overall, those who get chip-and-PIN cards will be able to use them right away.
"If a terminal doesn't have the ability to accept a PIN, it will then step down to accepting a signature," says Randy Vanderhoof, executive director of the Smart Card Alliance. "There will always be a secondary option."
"I predict we will start seeing some chip-and-PIN cards in 2015, and then it will probably take two to three years to fully convert to chip-and-PIN," he says.
Despite a slow transition overall, those who get chip-and-PIN cards will be able to use them right away.
"If a terminal doesn't have the ability to accept a PIN, it will then step down to accepting a signature," says Randy Vanderhoof, executive director of the Smart Card Alliance. "There will always be a secondary option."
Jul 15, 2014, 11:06 am
#5520
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: San Diego, CA
Programs: GE, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 15,507
The latest Fox Business article quotes an expert who believes the US will follow the same path Australia has in that chip-and-PIN will slowly be introduced.
8 FAQs About New EMV Credit Cards
8 FAQs About New EMV Credit Cards