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FlyerTalk Forums Thread Wiki: USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature) [2012-2015]
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Wiki Link
Posts from 1/1/16 onward can be found here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credi...signature.html

EMV wikipost volunteers: kebosabi

What is EMV?
EMV is a defacto global standard of technology where there is a visible microchip on the front of the card. It looks like this:

Who issues them?
See Google Docs spreadsheet in Post #1

SFOAMS also has created a list of excellent webpage that shows US EMV cards in a more interactive interface

Another site, which lets you narrow the search for an EMV card by various parameters, is http://www.spotterswiki.com/emv/index.php.

Several credit unions issue some form of Chip-and-PIN credit cards or prepaid cards. Prepaid EMV cards however are not recommended due to junk fees. USAA (currently restricted to members of military) used to offer Chip-and-PIN cards, but as late has backtracked to Chip-and-Signature priority.

Hey that's a cool Google Docs list! I know others that aren't on that list. How can I help by adding them to the list?
My bad for not putting this into the wiki sooner. Right now, the Google Docs is locked out of editing and only in "read-only" view because there were instances in the past where people would just delete the rows not thinking that it affects others viewing the list.

If you promise not to delete any rows and input all the pertinent info (annual fee, rewards, FTF, etc.), I can provide you with edit access. Just shoot me a PM to kebosabi with your gmail address and I'll provide you edit access.

Thanks for helping out!


As of October 2014, no USA-based card issuer offers Chip-and-PIN priority cards except for BMO Harris (Diners Club) and UN Federal Credit Union. Other major USA-based banks such as BofA, Chase, Citi, as well as others issue Chip-and-Signature cards which may work at many automated kiosks. However, bear in mind the word may is used above is a context where there is no absolute certainty of success for certain environments such as automated kiosks due to different natures of offline and online transactions. It is highly recommended to read Post #3 which lists real life FTer examples on how Chip-and-Signature worked and did not work at various transaction environments.

Can I upgrade it right now?
If it's listed on that Google Docs spreadsheet or SFOAMS' Silk page, wouldn't hurt to call/twitter them for a free upgrade. If you get the response you don't like, hang up, try again.

What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN?
You insert the chipped card into the slot. The physical contact terminal will read the EMV chip and the terminal will automatically read the preferred cardholder verification methods (called CVM) for that card.

Chip-and-Signature means that the terminal will printout a receipt for you to sign. This is the most prevalent authentication for most US issued EMV cards. Chip-and-Signature helps in a way that it will get through to face-to-face merchant transactions where you and the merchant do not speak the same language.

Chip-and-PIN means that the terminal will prompt you to input a PIN for authentication. Some credit union issued credit cards will have this CVM as secondary if Chip-and-Signature cannot be done. Chip-and-PIN is the more prevalent method of authentication used outside the US, especially in transaction environments where no human interaction is needed (i.e. automated gas pumps, toll roads, train kiosks, etc.).

The Google Docs spreadsheet will list which CVM are used in the EMV cards listed. Some cards can only do Chip-and-Signature. Other cards can do both Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN. And others might have a third option called No CVM (no authentication needed) which is reserved for low value transactions.

One chip can hold a lot more data, therefore it is capable of doing multiple verification methods. That's one of the great things about EMV over the mag-stripe which can hold very little data.

I want to know for sure what my EMV chip does. Is there anyway I can test out my own EMV card to see what the CVM list is?
alexmt has written up a nice step-by-step procedure on Post #3615.

If most of the EMV cards in the US is the Chip-and-Signature type, doesn't that mean it's still useless abroad?
Depends if you see it as glass half empty or glass half full. See Post #3 for further details on how Chip-and-Signature has worked both successfully and unsuccessfully depending on the merchant transaction environment and use your best judgment whether which one is right for you.

Are there any places in the US that are accepting transactions via the EMV chip?
tmiw has created a dedicated Google maps webpage to show where EMV has been proven to work here: http://emvacceptedhere.com/ Per his Post #4240, feel free to add any places with active EMV terminals if you come across one.

As of 2014/05, the EMV terminals in most Walmarts and Sam's Clubs are being turned on. Hence, the best place to try them out would be your local Walmart or Sam's Club. For other merchants, it's slowly being phased in.

I hope people will post them in the Post your receipt of your 1st EMV based transaction in the US thread. cvarming has shown us an EMV transaction receipt from Brooklyn, NY in Post #2380. I myself had my first EMV based (Chip-and-Signature) transaction in two stores in the Los Angeles area, as shown in detail in Post #2705 (courtesy of WhatWhatTech for pointing these two stores out)

I don't want a chip in my card. I heard horror stories all over the media saying hackers can steal my credit card info from a mile away.
There are two types of chips. One is contactless and the other is contact. Cards can be either one or the other, or both.

In the Google Docs spreadsheet, the cards that are capable of contactless payments are listed seperately under the "RFID or NFC contactless chip" column. If it says yes, then that means it has the ability to do contactless payments. If it says no, it doesn't have that feature.

The one that the media has overhyped about hackers "stealing your information wirelessly" was the contactless type like this:

You are worried about this happening, right?

You don't have to worry. EMV is a chip standard that can have both contact and contactless interfaces. With the traditional contact interface, this means you actually have to physically insert the chip into a POS terminal for it to be authorized, like this:

With the contact interface, nothing is wireless. No data is sent out in a stand-alone contact type EMV chip. With the EMV contactless interface, data is sent wirelessly.

Furthermore, contactless chip cards are required to show a symbol (looks like Wi-Fi symbol) somewhere on the card that to denote it's capability as a contactless card. For example, here's an example of a Discover Card with contactless capability (in which Discover calls "Discover ZIP") showing the contactless symbol on the back of the card:

Don't believe everything that the media says. Besides, millions of people all over the world from London to Singapore, uses contactless payments daily in extremely crowded subways and mass transit with nary any problems. There are multiple layers of encrypted securities and keys that are needed to break the code.

Frankly, giving your physical card to a waiter/waitress who takes the card out of your view is much more susceptible to fraud than contactless payments.

Why should I care?
If you are an international traveler, you will want this because majority of the world has or in the process of converting to this payment format.


In fact, in 2012, even North Korea moved to the EMV format, leaving the US as one of the countries in the world that hasn't done so.

In addition, VISA, MC, AMEX, and Discover have all agreed to incentivize the USA shifting to EMV payments by 2015 by shifting liability for fraudulent transactions to merchants if they do not have EMV equipment and the cardholder has an EMV card. So if you travel internationally or would like to get one before the others, you might be interested in getting one.


BS! I had no problems using my card in [insert whereever country], [insert whatever point in time]
If you stick to the tourist path where they have lots of visitors from the US, you should have no problems using your mag-stripe only card in hotels and restaurants, at least for now. But as things can change as things go forward.

However, consider that once you start taking the off-beaten path, go to non-touristy places where they are not familiar with mag-stripes, rent a car and use toll roads, fill up gas, or try to buy train tickets you might end up into a trouble of the machine not recognizing your card because it lacks the chip. Furthermore, a lot of toll roads, gas pumps, and automated ticket machines lack any human assistance to help you when you need it the most.

But [insert credit card company] told me all merchants that display their logo must accept them! All I have to do is report them for violating their agreements, right?
There are several factors against this.

1. You can only speak English. The merchant representative, most likely a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, speaks in a different language, let's say French. If you have no French language skills, how are you going to get your point across? Are you going to whip out your cell phone at exorbitant int'l roaming charges and hope the customer service is going to translate it for you on the spot? Or maybe you might actually know French. But how about Swahili, Farsi, Balinese, or the multiple languages in mainland China?

2. Just like US, the rest of the world's businesses uses part-time minimum wage workers as cashiers to cut down on labor costs. Most of their SOP training manuals are written by MBA types to not to do anything they are not familiar with. Do not expect them to understand the intricate details of credit card mumbo jumbo. You don't expect Taco Bell employees to understand the minute details of Discover-JCB-Union Pay agreements, right? Same thing the other way around: be respectful as a guest in their country, prepare in advance in their ways, avoid being an "ugly American" stereotype.

3. You are a guest in their country. You are a minority. If 99.9% of their country's people and other tourists from around the world uses EMV, do you really think they are going to accomodate the 0.1% of American tourists who only have mag-stripes credit cards?

4. Again, you are a guest in their country. How would you, as an American standing in line, react if a Chinese tourist was clogging up the lines at a local Taco Bell because the clerk doesn't understand the Discover-Union Pay agreement and has trouble communicating between Mandarin spoken by the tourist and English spoken by the Taco Bell clerk? Same way the other way around. You do not want to clog up the lines for everyone. The less hassle, the better.

5. VISA and MC make tons of money from merchants in that country. Say SNCF French Rail. It's a billion dollar company in France. Do you think VISA is going to pull the plug of their relationship with SNCF because SNCF refuses to do mag-stripe processing at their unmanned train station kiosk? Of course not. Be realistic.

6. And lastly, if you're up against an unstaffed toll kiosk, gas pump or train ticket machine, are you going to yell curses at the machine?

But I want my credit card to be able to be used in the US too!
No worries. They have not gotten rid of the mag-stripe on the back of the card for backward compatibility reasons, just like we still have embossed numbers on our cards for backwards compatibility to using those old carbon copy imprinters.

[insert own Hyatt card image front and back together with red arrows pointing to all the backward compatibility features]

You use the chip on the front of the card abroad (for now), and the mag-stripe just like any other card for the US. Basically, you're increasing your credit card's acceptance rate by getting a card that both via the chip and the mag-stripe. You're getting a better deal for free.

And when 2015 comes along and US switches to EMV, you'll be way ahead of everyone else too!


So why did the rest of the world and the US moved/moving toward EMV?
Primarily, due to fraud concerns. You see, the mag-stripe has been with us since the 1950s. It may have been the most high tech thing back in the day, but with the technology that is available today, any shmo can pick up a $100 USB magnetic card skimming device off of eBay and get your credit card info.

And unlike skimming off contactless cards which actually need the person to have l33t programming skills, skimming off a magnetic stripe has become so ubiquitous that nary a day goes about skimming fraud going on somewhere in America, from gas pumps, Michael's stores (2011), Target breaches (2013), restaurant waiters/waitresses, to even McDonald's drive thrus.

https://www.google.com/search?q=skimming+fraud

These type of fraud used to be prevalent in Europe. But once they started switching over to EMV starting over 2 decades ago, this type of fraud went elsewhere. It went over to Asia, Canada and Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. until they too began implementing EMV to combat skimming fraud. The US is practically the only country left that hasn't done so, therefore all the fraud that used to take place elsewhere is now happening here.


But EMV is old and it's not fool proof. Shouldn't we just skip over it and do something new instead?
Yes, EMV is old. It was developed in the 1990s and its smart card payment predecessor was first introduced in France. But as of today, it has become the defacto global standard of payments.

But then, what else is there? There is no other de facto global standard of payments alternative. For example, if we decide to skip over it and do something new, hypothetically like DNA matching technology, it still means US int'l travelers will continue to have problems abroad with useless plastic acceptance because no other country is using this DNA matching technology except the US.

Besides, nothing is fool proof. You can say that the bank vault isn't fool proof because you can crack it open if enough C4 is used. But your average low-life scumbag isn't likely to get military grade C4 easily either. But the bank vault does make it harder to get the bank's money over say a petty cash box. That's the point here. EMV is akin to a security tight bank vault, the old mag-stripe is akin to a petty cash box lying around inside the drawer.


I'm a business owner and I don't think EMV is going to take off. I'm not going to spend extra hundreds of dollars to upgrade my credit card machine. Convince me other wise why I should.
I can understand the added extra cost to your business once this switchover takes place. But before even saying that, look at your existing POS terminal. Does it have a slot somewhere to insert a card?

Most likely, if you had replaced your POS terminal within the past five years, you already have an EMV capable terminal. EMV is basically just not turned on yet from the processor and acquirer side.

If you have an EMV capable terminal, then a best bet would be to contact your acquirer to have the EMV feature turned on. You did your end of the deal already by having an EMV capable terminal, it is now the acquirers' responsibility to turn it on in accordance to the EMV switchover mandate.

And if you don't, you are going to replace your POS terminal anyway from common wear and tear. It isn't a hard switch-over. You can continue to use your POS terminal until it dies out because EMV cardholders will still have the mag-stripe on the back. And by the time your non-EMV capable POS terminal is up for replacement the market will be full with these newer POS terminals that can accept the mag-stripe, EMV, as well as contactless payments.

In addition, you may also want to check with your acquirer or processor about EMV capable terminals. Some of them are willing to replace your terminal for free in preparation for the US EMV switchover. Call and ask for details.


But what's in it for me? I'm the one that has to pay for the upgrade.
All the major card networks have given incentives for merchants for the upcoming EMV switchover.

If 75% or more of your credit card transactions are done on an EMV contact and contactless terminal, they are going to waive your annual PCI-DSS fees, which usually costs you around $5.00-$19.95/month per terminal. The overall long term cost savings of those compliance fees will be larger than the cost of an one time upgrade for the terminal.

The downside is that once EMV switchover happens and if you do not have a POS terminal that is able to accept EMV, the fraud liability shifts over to the merchant.

I own several fast food franchises. If I upgrade my POS terminals at all of my restaurants, it's going to cost me thousands, if not millions. I don't think anyone is going to use a fake credit card to buy $5 burgers. And if they do, wouldn't it be cheaper for me to eat the fraud cost?
Remember also that fraud isn't just committed by dishonest customers using fraudulent cards. Fraud can also happen with dishonest employees skimming off credit card data from the mag-stripe as in the case of a teenage McDonald's drive thru employee skimming off $13,000 of customers' credit cards in Olympia, WA. Consider the public relations fall out that your business may have if this happens (i.e. the big Target breach of 2013, where someone used a mag stripe card to load malware INTO Target's system). Is it worth risking to take such a huge PR disaster?
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Old Jun 25, 14, 8:36 am   #5146
  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STS-134 View Post
One interesting thing is that I used my USAA M/C in China several times, but most of the time, I don't remember being asked to enter a PIN. Is it possible for the terminal to default to signature if the transaction is below a certain amount?
I can't answer your question about amount, but if you look at the CVM sequence, I interpret it to mean that if the terminal doesn't support offline PIN but does support signature verification, you would be asked for a signature before the card would accept online PIN.

The whole issue is confusing to me - all I really want is a card that works everywhere I want it to, reliably and securely. I really don't care a rat's @$$ about what technology is used to deliver that.

If US merchants and card issuers are worried about the American consumer's inability to remember a bunch of PINs and to always dip instead of swipe, what do they think we will do with a card that asks for a PIN one time, and a signature the next? Dip your card, then wait with the merchant to see what happens - PIN or signature, or terminal hang, or...whatever. That's one reason I dumped my AFCU card in favor of USAA. But if USAA has switched CVM sequence on their renewal cards as jeffjaguar's experience suggests...<grrrr>...
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Old Jun 25, 14, 9:02 am   #5147
  
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Originally Posted by othermike27 View Post
I can't answer your question about amount, but if you look at the CVM sequence, I interpret it to mean that if the terminal doesn't support offline PIN but does support signature verification, you would be asked for a signature before the card would accept online PIN.

The whole issue is confusing to me - all I really want is a card that works everywhere I want it to, reliably and securely. I really don't care a rat's @$$ about what technology is used to deliver that.

If US merchants and card issuers are worried about the American consumer's inability to remember a bunch of PINs and to always dip instead of swipe, what do they think we will do with a card that asks for a PIN one time, and a signature the next? Dip your card, then wait with the merchant to see what happens - PIN or signature, or terminal hang, or...whatever. That's one reason I dumped my AFCU card in favor of USAA. But if USAA has switched CVM sequence on their renewal cards as jeffjaguar's experience suggests...<grrrr>...
Yesterday I asked USAA if their card does online or offline. Here is the response I received from USAA:

"The Chip and PIN card can use either an online or offline terminal for verification. As an example of an online terminal, but not limited to would be an ATM machine that connects to USAA. And an example of an offline terminal, again not limited to would be a parking lot that is not attended.

In addition, whether the transaction is processed through an online terminal or an offline terminal is based on what the merchant is using. So, if you have a concern as to which is being used, you may wish to consult directly with the merchant."
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Old Jun 25, 14, 9:31 am   #5148
  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STS-134 View Post
One interesting thing is that I used my USAA M/C in China several times, but most of the time, I don't remember being asked to enter a PIN. Is it possible for the terminal to default to signature if the transaction is below a certain amount?
This is a guess (based on the fact that the only foreign chip cards I've used in China have either signature or PIN in the CVM list for purchases, but not both) but China seems to be online PIN. Since it's at the bottom of the USAA card CVM list then it has to be that it prefers signature over offline PIN, thus it just asks you to sign. You'd know what type of PIN it's asking you for since it specifies- either it asks for 联机密码(online PIN) or it asks for "Offline PIN:" in English.
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Old Jun 25, 14, 11:06 am   #5149
  
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Guys,

I called PenFed and they say that for their card, we need to select the PIN before the card is printed, because the PIN in coded in the card. And once the PIN is set, it can not be changed.

Does this mean PenFed supports online or offline terminal pin verification?
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Old Jun 25, 14, 11:37 am   #5150
  
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Originally Posted by kayanco View Post
Yesterday I asked USAA if their card does online or offline. Here is the response I received from USAA:

"The Chip and PIN card can use either an online or offline terminal for verification. As an example of an online terminal, but not limited to would be an ATM machine that connects to USAA. And an example of an offline terminal, again not limited to would be a parking lot that is not attended.

In addition, whether the transaction is processed through an online terminal or an offline terminal is based on what the merchant is using. So, if you have a concern as to which is being used, you may wish to consult directly with the merchant."
I suppose that's comforting as an answer, but it doesn't really answer our questions here, does it? It seems to verify that their card can do either PIN CVM, but doesn't tell us which is preferred, or how they rank against signature verification.
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Old Jun 25, 14, 11:45 am   #5151
  
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Originally Posted by othermike27 View Post
I suppose that's comforting as an answer, but it doesn't really answer our questions here, does it? It seems to verify that their card can do either PIN CVM, but doesn't tell us which is preferred, or how they rank against signature verification.
Hmm..I didn't get it...why should we care what is preferred?

I thought it means that whatever the terminal supports, whether it tries online or offline, the USAA card will work, and not get rejected in either case?

All I care is that my card should work in both cases, whether a terminal does online or offfline...isn't that the case for USAA MC?

Thanks.
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Old Jun 25, 14, 11:54 am   #5152
  
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So if their cards can do both types, there are two PINs for one card? How are they going to tell people that if they change the PIN at somewhere other than an ATM, they need to go and stick their card in an ATM in order to change the other PIN?
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Old Jun 25, 14, 11:57 am   #5153
  
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Hmm..I didn't get it...why should we care what is preferred?

I thought it means that whatever the terminal supports, whether it tries online or offline, the USAA card will work, and not get rejected in either case?

All I care is that my card should work in both cases, whether a terminal does online or offfline...isn't that the case for USAA MC?

Thanks.
Take a look at my post just upthread (#5142, I think) about the CVM list on my USAA card. The list is presented in priority order, so the card prefers to use offline PIN as its first non-ATM CVM. As I understand the process, the card and the merchant terminal "negotiate" down to the first verification method that both will accept. So, if the merchant terminal does not take offline PIN (encrypted or plaintext), but does accept signature, you'll be asked for a signature. In this case, the option of online PIN won't be considered. But the card might be accepted at another merchant that wants online PIN but won't take offline and won't take signature. Confusing, no?

Want a card that works everywhere you want it to? Good luck with that!

In Europe, I now carry at least 3-4 EMV cards of various flavors and hope that I can get something to work in any situation. As a backup, there's always my handy-dandy Rick Steves money belt with a wad of Euros or pounds or whatever. Have to keep some small bills in there though, since some merchants get crabby about making change.
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Old Jun 25, 14, 12:00 pm   #5154
  
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Originally Posted by STS-134 View Post
So if their cards can do both types, there are two PINs for one card? How are they going to tell people that if they change the PIN at somewhere other than an ATM, they need to go and stick their card in an ATM in order to change the other PIN?
My USAA MC only got one PIN.
It was generated and sent to me, I didn't get to choose it.

Why would it need two PINs?
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Old Jun 25, 14, 12:03 pm   #5155
  
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Originally Posted by STS-134 View Post
So if their cards can do both types, there are two PINs for one card? How are they going to tell people that if they change the PIN at somewhere other than an ATM, they need to go and stick their card in an ATM in order to change the other PIN?
I have only one PIN.

Just because the card has an offline PIN stored on it doesn't mean that the merchant terminal has to accept that form of verification. Maybe it's programmed to prefer a dial-in verification. This is all making my head hurt. I sure wish that the whole issue would go away, but since it's obviously not go to do that on its own, can one of our resident payments industry participants give us some guidance here?
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Old Jun 25, 14, 12:03 pm   #5156
  
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Originally Posted by kayanco View Post
My USAA MC only got one PIN.
It was generated and sent to me, I didn't get to choose it.

Why would it need two PINs?
See this post: USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature) [2012-2015]
Quote:
Originally Posted by othermike27
Here's what Cardpeek shows on my USAA MC:

CVM 1 = unattended cash PIN online (for ATM cash draws)
CVM 2 = PIN offline
CVM 3 = plaintext PIN offline
CVM 4 = signature
CVM 5 = PIN online
CVM 6 = no CVM

Note that this is an "old-style" USAA card issued in March 2013, before jeffjaguar's report on his new card's shortcomings. So far, every use of this card at an EMV-enabled location has required me to enter the PIN, no matter how large the transaction (e.g., Walmart), which makes sense given the CVM list entries.

BTW, I kinda think the recent discussion here may be confusing two online/offline issues. There is the online/offline cardholder verification issue (this post), and there is the issue of whether a card's PIN can be changed or not. Seems like two separate issues: answering one doesn't answer the other. Anybody have information to the contrary?
There are apparently two PINs.

By the way what does "No CVM" mean?
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Old Jun 25, 14, 12:09 pm   #5157
  
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Originally Posted by othermike27 View Post
Take a look at my post just upthread (#5142, I think) about the CVM list on my USAA card. The list is presented in priority order, so the card prefers to use offline PIN as its first non-ATM CVM. As I understand the process, the card and the merchant terminal "negotiate" down to the first verification method that both will accept. So, if the merchant terminal does not take offline PIN (encrypted or plaintext), but does accept signature, you'll be asked for a signature. In this case, the option of online PIN won't be considered. But the card might be accepted at another merchant that wants online PIN but won't take offline and won't take signature. Confusing, no?

Want a card that works everywhere you want it to? Good luck with that!

In Europe, I now carry at least 3-4 EMV cards of various flavors and hope that I can get something to work in any situation. As a backup, there's always my handy-dandy Rick Steves money belt with a wad of Euros or pounds or whatever. Have to keep some small bills in there though, since some merchants get crabby about making change.
haha...agree, cash is King! Always good idea to keep some local cash!

I saw your CVM list...from what you described about negotiation, I understand that it's possible that at one location we are asked for signature, 2nd location the negotiation ends up in online, and another location ends with offline.....but the card should still work, right?

If you are saying it's confusing/annoying that one place we have to sign and another place, enter PIN, etc....that I understand, makes sense, and I agree.

But you are not saying that the card will get rejected at some locations, right??
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Old Jun 25, 14, 12:15 pm   #5158
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Originally Posted by kayanco View Post
Guys,

I called PenFed and they say that for their card, we need to select the PIN before the card is printed, because the PIN in coded in the card. And once the PIN is set, it can not be changed.

Does this mean PenFed supports online or offline terminal pin verification?
That's offline PIN.

Quote:
Originally Posted by STS-134 View Post
So if their cards can do both types, there are two PINs for one card? How are they going to tell people that if they change the PIN at somewhere other than an ATM, they need to go and stick their card in an ATM in order to change the other PIN?
I once spoke to a rep from Amex (Israel) who said the plan is to have every card have an online and offline PIN. These PINs are *technically* separate and *theoretically,* could be different. However, because that could get confusing, they will keep them both the same. (The benefit, he said, is to give it a wider range of support, including both online and offline terminals.)

If someone wants to change it, it can only be done through an Isracard (issuer of American Express Israel) EMV terminal, where the terminal will re-code the new offline PIN onto the chip while simultaneously changing the online PIN in the network. It will not allow changing of PINs in any other way, including online, over the phone, or at other (non-Isracard) EMV ATMs.
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Old Jun 25, 14, 12:38 pm   #5159
  
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Originally Posted by joshwex90 View Post
That's offline PIN.
..
Hey,

Thanks. I want to understand this a bit better. Can you please explain (or point me to some resource with the answer)?

How did you figure it's offline PIN? And since you say it's offline, does that mean PenFed won't support online terminal pin verification??

Also, USAA say we CAN change the pin. This is new, last year we couldn't change the pin. But PenFed can't change the pin. What does this mean? And what's better or more broad usage?

Thanks.
kayanco is offline  
Old Jun 25, 14, 12:55 pm   #5160
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Originally Posted by kayanco View Post
Hey,

Thanks. I want to understand this a bit better. Can you please explain (or point me to some resource with the answer)?
Lots of references throughout the thread. While FT's search function is alright, the wiki has some great information.

Quote:
How did you figure it's offline PIN?
Since you said it's hard-coded onto the card and can't be cahnged. Basically, offline means the PIN is stored on the card itself. When purchasing, the terminal checks the card to see if the PIN you entered matches what's saved on the card. "Offline" since it doesn't need to connect to a network to authenticate. Frequent in France, some places in Europe, (rural areas especially,) and on-board flights with no data connectivity. ("Online" means the PIN is stored by the bank in their server, and the terminal connects to their server to see if the PIN you entered matches what's saved in the network.)

Quote:
And since you say it's offline, does that mean PenFed won't support online terminal pin verification??
I have no idea whether all terminals support offline. Some only support offline and not online. But in theory, there's no reason why a terminal (that supports online PIN) shouldn't be able to also support offline - it's a matter of checking the card instead of the network, which requires no additional infrastructure. But I'm not an expert, so someone may correct me on this.

Quote:
Also, USAA say we CAN change the pin. This is new, last year we couldn't change the pin. But PenFed can't change the pin. What does this mean? And what's better or more broad usage?
Being able to change a PIN doesn't necessarily make it online. If you can change it, but only in a terminal, then it's still offline. You may even be able to change it, but you would need to insert your card for that to update. Not being able to change it does indicate that it's offline.
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