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Old Jan 15, 16, 6:38 pm   -   Wikipost
FlyerTalk Forums Thread Wiki: USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature) [2012-2015]
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Wiki Link
Posts from 1/1/16 onward can be found here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credi...signature.html

EMV wikipost volunteers: kebosabi

What is EMV?
EMV is a defacto global standard of technology where there is a visible microchip on the front of the card. It looks like this:

Who issues them?
See Google Docs spreadsheet in Post #1

SFOAMS also has created a list of excellent webpage that shows US EMV cards in a more interactive interface

Another site, which lets you narrow the search for an EMV card by various parameters, is http://www.spotterswiki.com/emv/index.php.

Several credit unions issue some form of Chip-and-PIN credit cards or prepaid cards. Prepaid EMV cards however are not recommended due to junk fees. USAA (currently restricted to members of military) used to offer Chip-and-PIN cards, but as late has backtracked to Chip-and-Signature priority.

Hey that's a cool Google Docs list! I know others that aren't on that list. How can I help by adding them to the list?
My bad for not putting this into the wiki sooner. Right now, the Google Docs is locked out of editing and only in "read-only" view because there were instances in the past where people would just delete the rows not thinking that it affects others viewing the list.

If you promise not to delete any rows and input all the pertinent info (annual fee, rewards, FTF, etc.), I can provide you with edit access. Just shoot me a PM to kebosabi with your gmail address and I'll provide you edit access.

Thanks for helping out!


As of October 2014, no USA-based card issuer offers Chip-and-PIN priority cards except for BMO Harris (Diners Club) and UN Federal Credit Union. Other major USA-based banks such as BofA, Chase, Citi, as well as others issue Chip-and-Signature cards which may work at many automated kiosks. However, bear in mind the word may is used above is a context where there is no absolute certainty of success for certain environments such as automated kiosks due to different natures of offline and online transactions. It is highly recommended to read Post #3 which lists real life FTer examples on how Chip-and-Signature worked and did not work at various transaction environments.

Can I upgrade it right now?
If it's listed on that Google Docs spreadsheet or SFOAMS' Silk page, wouldn't hurt to call/twitter them for a free upgrade. If you get the response you don't like, hang up, try again.

What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN?
You insert the chipped card into the slot. The physical contact terminal will read the EMV chip and the terminal will automatically read the preferred cardholder verification methods (called CVM) for that card.

Chip-and-Signature means that the terminal will printout a receipt for you to sign. This is the most prevalent authentication for most US issued EMV cards. Chip-and-Signature helps in a way that it will get through to face-to-face merchant transactions where you and the merchant do not speak the same language.

Chip-and-PIN means that the terminal will prompt you to input a PIN for authentication. Some credit union issued credit cards will have this CVM as secondary if Chip-and-Signature cannot be done. Chip-and-PIN is the more prevalent method of authentication used outside the US, especially in transaction environments where no human interaction is needed (i.e. automated gas pumps, toll roads, train kiosks, etc.).

The Google Docs spreadsheet will list which CVM are used in the EMV cards listed. Some cards can only do Chip-and-Signature. Other cards can do both Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN. And others might have a third option called No CVM (no authentication needed) which is reserved for low value transactions.

One chip can hold a lot more data, therefore it is capable of doing multiple verification methods. That's one of the great things about EMV over the mag-stripe which can hold very little data.

I want to know for sure what my EMV chip does. Is there anyway I can test out my own EMV card to see what the CVM list is?
alexmt has written up a nice step-by-step procedure on Post #3615.

If most of the EMV cards in the US is the Chip-and-Signature type, doesn't that mean it's still useless abroad?
Depends if you see it as glass half empty or glass half full. See Post #3 for further details on how Chip-and-Signature has worked both successfully and unsuccessfully depending on the merchant transaction environment and use your best judgment whether which one is right for you.

Are there any places in the US that are accepting transactions via the EMV chip?
tmiw has created a dedicated Google maps webpage to show where EMV has been proven to work here: http://emvacceptedhere.com/ Per his Post #4240, feel free to add any places with active EMV terminals if you come across one.

As of 2014/05, the EMV terminals in most Walmarts and Sam's Clubs are being turned on. Hence, the best place to try them out would be your local Walmart or Sam's Club. For other merchants, it's slowly being phased in.

I hope people will post them in the Post your receipt of your 1st EMV based transaction in the US thread. cvarming has shown us an EMV transaction receipt from Brooklyn, NY in Post #2380. I myself had my first EMV based (Chip-and-Signature) transaction in two stores in the Los Angeles area, as shown in detail in Post #2705 (courtesy of WhatWhatTech for pointing these two stores out)

I don't want a chip in my card. I heard horror stories all over the media saying hackers can steal my credit card info from a mile away.
There are two types of chips. One is contactless and the other is contact. Cards can be either one or the other, or both.

In the Google Docs spreadsheet, the cards that are capable of contactless payments are listed seperately under the "RFID or NFC contactless chip" column. If it says yes, then that means it has the ability to do contactless payments. If it says no, it doesn't have that feature.

The one that the media has overhyped about hackers "stealing your information wirelessly" was the contactless type like this:

You are worried about this happening, right?

You don't have to worry. EMV is a chip standard that can have both contact and contactless interfaces. With the traditional contact interface, this means you actually have to physically insert the chip into a POS terminal for it to be authorized, like this:

With the contact interface, nothing is wireless. No data is sent out in a stand-alone contact type EMV chip. With the EMV contactless interface, data is sent wirelessly.

Furthermore, contactless chip cards are required to show a symbol (looks like Wi-Fi symbol) somewhere on the card that to denote it's capability as a contactless card. For example, here's an example of a Discover Card with contactless capability (in which Discover calls "Discover ZIP") showing the contactless symbol on the back of the card:

Don't believe everything that the media says. Besides, millions of people all over the world from London to Singapore, uses contactless payments daily in extremely crowded subways and mass transit with nary any problems. There are multiple layers of encrypted securities and keys that are needed to break the code.

Frankly, giving your physical card to a waiter/waitress who takes the card out of your view is much more susceptible to fraud than contactless payments.

Why should I care?
If you are an international traveler, you will want this because majority of the world has or in the process of converting to this payment format.


In fact, in 2012, even North Korea moved to the EMV format, leaving the US as one of the countries in the world that hasn't done so.

In addition, VISA, MC, AMEX, and Discover have all agreed to incentivize the USA shifting to EMV payments by 2015 by shifting liability for fraudulent transactions to merchants if they do not have EMV equipment and the cardholder has an EMV card. So if you travel internationally or would like to get one before the others, you might be interested in getting one.


BS! I had no problems using my card in [insert whereever country], [insert whatever point in time]
If you stick to the tourist path where they have lots of visitors from the US, you should have no problems using your mag-stripe only card in hotels and restaurants, at least for now. But as things can change as things go forward.

However, consider that once you start taking the off-beaten path, go to non-touristy places where they are not familiar with mag-stripes, rent a car and use toll roads, fill up gas, or try to buy train tickets you might end up into a trouble of the machine not recognizing your card because it lacks the chip. Furthermore, a lot of toll roads, gas pumps, and automated ticket machines lack any human assistance to help you when you need it the most.

But [insert credit card company] told me all merchants that display their logo must accept them! All I have to do is report them for violating their agreements, right?
There are several factors against this.

1. You can only speak English. The merchant representative, most likely a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, speaks in a different language, let's say French. If you have no French language skills, how are you going to get your point across? Are you going to whip out your cell phone at exorbitant int'l roaming charges and hope the customer service is going to translate it for you on the spot? Or maybe you might actually know French. But how about Swahili, Farsi, Balinese, or the multiple languages in mainland China?

2. Just like US, the rest of the world's businesses uses part-time minimum wage workers as cashiers to cut down on labor costs. Most of their SOP training manuals are written by MBA types to not to do anything they are not familiar with. Do not expect them to understand the intricate details of credit card mumbo jumbo. You don't expect Taco Bell employees to understand the minute details of Discover-JCB-Union Pay agreements, right? Same thing the other way around: be respectful as a guest in their country, prepare in advance in their ways, avoid being an "ugly American" stereotype.

3. You are a guest in their country. You are a minority. If 99.9% of their country's people and other tourists from around the world uses EMV, do you really think they are going to accomodate the 0.1% of American tourists who only have mag-stripes credit cards?

4. Again, you are a guest in their country. How would you, as an American standing in line, react if a Chinese tourist was clogging up the lines at a local Taco Bell because the clerk doesn't understand the Discover-Union Pay agreement and has trouble communicating between Mandarin spoken by the tourist and English spoken by the Taco Bell clerk? Same way the other way around. You do not want to clog up the lines for everyone. The less hassle, the better.

5. VISA and MC make tons of money from merchants in that country. Say SNCF French Rail. It's a billion dollar company in France. Do you think VISA is going to pull the plug of their relationship with SNCF because SNCF refuses to do mag-stripe processing at their unmanned train station kiosk? Of course not. Be realistic.

6. And lastly, if you're up against an unstaffed toll kiosk, gas pump or train ticket machine, are you going to yell curses at the machine?

But I want my credit card to be able to be used in the US too!
No worries. They have not gotten rid of the mag-stripe on the back of the card for backward compatibility reasons, just like we still have embossed numbers on our cards for backwards compatibility to using those old carbon copy imprinters.

[insert own Hyatt card image front and back together with red arrows pointing to all the backward compatibility features]

You use the chip on the front of the card abroad (for now), and the mag-stripe just like any other card for the US. Basically, you're increasing your credit card's acceptance rate by getting a card that both via the chip and the mag-stripe. You're getting a better deal for free.

And when 2015 comes along and US switches to EMV, you'll be way ahead of everyone else too!


So why did the rest of the world and the US moved/moving toward EMV?
Primarily, due to fraud concerns. You see, the mag-stripe has been with us since the 1950s. It may have been the most high tech thing back in the day, but with the technology that is available today, any shmo can pick up a $100 USB magnetic card skimming device off of eBay and get your credit card info.

And unlike skimming off contactless cards which actually need the person to have l33t programming skills, skimming off a magnetic stripe has become so ubiquitous that nary a day goes about skimming fraud going on somewhere in America, from gas pumps, Michael's stores (2011), Target breaches (2013), restaurant waiters/waitresses, to even McDonald's drive thrus.

https://www.google.com/search?q=skimming+fraud

These type of fraud used to be prevalent in Europe. But once they started switching over to EMV starting over 2 decades ago, this type of fraud went elsewhere. It went over to Asia, Canada and Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. until they too began implementing EMV to combat skimming fraud. The US is practically the only country left that hasn't done so, therefore all the fraud that used to take place elsewhere is now happening here.


But EMV is old and it's not fool proof. Shouldn't we just skip over it and do something new instead?
Yes, EMV is old. It was developed in the 1990s and its smart card payment predecessor was first introduced in France. But as of today, it has become the defacto global standard of payments.

But then, what else is there? There is no other de facto global standard of payments alternative. For example, if we decide to skip over it and do something new, hypothetically like DNA matching technology, it still means US int'l travelers will continue to have problems abroad with useless plastic acceptance because no other country is using this DNA matching technology except the US.

Besides, nothing is fool proof. You can say that the bank vault isn't fool proof because you can crack it open if enough C4 is used. But your average low-life scumbag isn't likely to get military grade C4 easily either. But the bank vault does make it harder to get the bank's money over say a petty cash box. That's the point here. EMV is akin to a security tight bank vault, the old mag-stripe is akin to a petty cash box lying around inside the drawer.


I'm a business owner and I don't think EMV is going to take off. I'm not going to spend extra hundreds of dollars to upgrade my credit card machine. Convince me other wise why I should.
I can understand the added extra cost to your business once this switchover takes place. But before even saying that, look at your existing POS terminal. Does it have a slot somewhere to insert a card?

Most likely, if you had replaced your POS terminal within the past five years, you already have an EMV capable terminal. EMV is basically just not turned on yet from the processor and acquirer side.

If you have an EMV capable terminal, then a best bet would be to contact your acquirer to have the EMV feature turned on. You did your end of the deal already by having an EMV capable terminal, it is now the acquirers' responsibility to turn it on in accordance to the EMV switchover mandate.

And if you don't, you are going to replace your POS terminal anyway from common wear and tear. It isn't a hard switch-over. You can continue to use your POS terminal until it dies out because EMV cardholders will still have the mag-stripe on the back. And by the time your non-EMV capable POS terminal is up for replacement the market will be full with these newer POS terminals that can accept the mag-stripe, EMV, as well as contactless payments.

In addition, you may also want to check with your acquirer or processor about EMV capable terminals. Some of them are willing to replace your terminal for free in preparation for the US EMV switchover. Call and ask for details.


But what's in it for me? I'm the one that has to pay for the upgrade.
All the major card networks have given incentives for merchants for the upcoming EMV switchover.

If 75% or more of your credit card transactions are done on an EMV contact and contactless terminal, they are going to waive your annual PCI-DSS fees, which usually costs you around $5.00-$19.95/month per terminal. The overall long term cost savings of those compliance fees will be larger than the cost of an one time upgrade for the terminal.

The downside is that once EMV switchover happens and if you do not have a POS terminal that is able to accept EMV, the fraud liability shifts over to the merchant.

I own several fast food franchises. If I upgrade my POS terminals at all of my restaurants, it's going to cost me thousands, if not millions. I don't think anyone is going to use a fake credit card to buy $5 burgers. And if they do, wouldn't it be cheaper for me to eat the fraud cost?
Remember also that fraud isn't just committed by dishonest customers using fraudulent cards. Fraud can also happen with dishonest employees skimming off credit card data from the mag-stripe as in the case of a teenage McDonald's drive thru employee skimming off $13,000 of customers' credit cards in Olympia, WA. Consider the public relations fall out that your business may have if this happens (i.e. the big Target breach of 2013, where someone used a mag stripe card to load malware INTO Target's system). Is it worth risking to take such a huge PR disaster?
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Old May 30, 14, 2:34 am   #4666
  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 522
MasterCard is changing their zero fraud liability to include PIN transactions (chip & ATM) starting in October.

Expecting a similar announcement from Visa, possibly with an earlier start date.
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Old May 30, 14, 3:37 am   #4667
  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kebosabi View Post
My guess:

1. A vestigial remnant of the times when graphology was considered solid science
2. It's more a of "we always have done it this way, changing it will cause mass confusion so therefore we have to keep it this way" (like the imperial measurement system and the reluctance to adopt the metric system)
3. Banks think the American cardholders are too stupid
4. Instead of signature being a mode of authentication, it's more like an agreement to promise to pay later via a signature (much like signing a contract; hence the words "I acknowledge blah-blah-blah" on the credit card slip)
5. All of the above
Probably #5. Actually I'm not sure #4 has any standing in law. After all, when you sign elecgtronically, there's no statement of what you're signing to unless it's buried in the legal terms and conditions you receive with your card or agree to when applying for the cards.

In any event too, many many merchants have abandoned signatures for purchases under a certain amounts. In NY, the grocery chain Waldbaums which either owns or is a subsidiary of A&P doesn't bother with signatures for under $50 while a couple of competitors I shop at always ask for signatures for any amount. Walmart does not ask for signatures under $50. The post office I believe uses $25. Fast food places like Mickey D might be $20 as I remember. Pay at the pumps never to the best of my knowledge ask for signatures but of course filling up a car now in the USA can easily run to $80 or more. But they use zip code verification. (And btw in a way isn't that just as bad for visitors to the country as pin verification is for Americans at merchants who insist on a pin yet their pos terminals cannot handle online pins). NYC transit metrocard vending machines also use zip code verification and since I don't think they take cards at the fewer and fewer station agents that are still open, that can leave a toujrist upp the creek without a paddle if they don't have a zip code tied in to their plastic cards (although debit cards have pins). Just some examples (does 00000 work for foreign credit cards which do not tie into a zip code?)

Yet the funny thing is that when I use either a magnetic strip or c&s card in Great Britain at least in those places I frequent in London, the clerk always makes a pretense of checking signatures and I think once I was told my signatures didn't match and they asked for id something I'm always reluctant to furnish but I did on that occasion. Also one time at a Boots in London I used a non pin card and was told their policy was to ask for ID on a relatively small purchase (certainly less than 10) and I went into one of my temper tantrums that it was illegal according to mc and visa regs (which I am not sure of course apply outside the USA as there are provisions that local laws take precedence over their regs and even here some states have unwisely, very unwisely from an identity theft perspective, passed laws prohibiting mc/visa from stipulating that merchants cannot fail to complete a purchase if a customer refuses to show his ID (and thereby opening up the way to identity theft). In any event, the manager came over and gave me the usual bs ("it's for your protection, sir."). And I said, "No it takes away one of my protections." He muttered under his breath, checked the signature against the signature on the card and let it go through. That wass the last time, however, they ever asked me to show id at that particular Boots.

I see, though, Kebosabi san that you're pretty resigned that it's going to be c&s in the USA which I am too!
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Old May 30, 14, 5:53 am   #4668
  
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The following is an email I sent off today to USAA.


Change in your World Mastercard Verification



Message


Reference Account: WORLD MASTERCARD #xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
About a year ago, I opened this account because it was a true chip and pin card. I used it several times in Europe last year and every time, unlike the other emv chipped cards I have, I was asked for my pin. USAA is one of only three banks in the USA I know of which offered a true chip and pin card.

Yesterday I used a new card I received when I joined the rewards program with this card (and the account number was not changed) and lo and behold I was asked for a signature. Now others who have your emv equipped mastercard have reported they were asked for their pin so Walmart's terminals can process chip and pin transactions.

Upon reading your q&a on your credit card sub web site, it has become apparent to me that you have switched away from true chip and pin and now are a primary chip and signature verification card with chip and pin capabilities. The fact I was able to change my pin on line is indicative that the pin is an online pin and may not work in unpersonneled kiosks. Also there are some merchants in Europe who will not process a chip and signature transaction even if their pos terminals allows it.

My question is why did you do this to us? You were a unique bank with a unique product i.e. a credit card which is truly chip and pin. Please please whoever replies to this, do not insult my inteligence. I know exactly what I'm talking about. This is no longer a true chip and pin card but rather a primary chip and signature card with pin capabilities. For such cards, the customer has no control over what verification method is used. And like I said, there are some merchants in Europe who, despite whatever the mc reguations say, will not process credit card purchases without a pin verification.

You have made your introduction of emv chipped card less valuable than it was when introduced. There has to be a reason why you have chosen to go this path. There is a long long discussion of emv chipped cards on flyer talk and until yesterday, everybody was complimenting USAA for having a unique and good product; necessary to ensure full compatbility with what is going on in the rest of the world. Now you have compromised your card and it may be that because of this, I will be in situations where my card is not honored.

I hope whomever answers this e-mail is fully understanding of what I'm saying and is able to furnish an answer and not deny that the card is no longer a true chip and pin card and explain why you would so foolishly go off in this direction.

A most unsatisfied customer
.


I would hope anybody else with a USAA mastercard, even if you haven't received an "upgraded" card which is really a downgrade send a similar e-mail. I will, of course, share with the group any response I might get hopefully before I leave; not that it will do me any good.
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Old May 30, 14, 6:23 am   #4669
  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEFFJAGUAR View Post

I would hope anybody else with a USAA mastercard, even if you haven't received an "upgraded" card which is really a downgrade send a similar e-mail. I will, of course, share with the group any response I might get hopefully before I leave; not that it will do me any good.
If you are unsatisfied then why not cancel? If the only reason that you got the card was because it was chip-and-PIN and that reason no longer holds, let them know that when you go to cancel.
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Old May 30, 14, 7:03 am   #4670
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majuki View Post
If you are unsatisfied then why not cancel? If the only reason that you got the card was because it was chip-and-PIN and that reason no longer holds, let them know that when you go to cancel.
Good luck having the person you talk to when you cancel understand the difference between chip & PIN and chip & signature! They'll just listen, ignore, and move on.
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Old May 30, 14, 7:04 am   #4671
  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majuki View Post
If you are unsatisfied then why not cancel? If the only reason that you got the card was because it was chip-and-PIN and that reason no longer holds, let them know that when you go to cancel.
I think I've made it clear here that the only reason I got the card in the first place was the protection against those places where merchants refuse to process signature verified transactions or at kiosks where pins don't work on the c&s with pin capabilities cards. The card has a 1% ftf and while I joined the rewards program to undo the 1%, I still do better with other cards. Of course, it is not my primary card so if I were them, I would say we notice you only used your card 4 times and for purchases under $10 so who cares.

And as I've said, and please don't misinterpret this, if indeed the US banks can deliver and guarantee almost universal acceptance of their c&s cards and no problems with merchants refusing to honor non pin transactions, in the scheme of things, it doesn't matter.

It's more a case of really just being curious as to what sort of an answer I will be getting. Obviously, the card now gets buried deeper in my drawer.

Also as others noted, it really leaves us only with 1 (I exclude Diners as I don't think they're ever going to get anywhere again) "true" c&p card i.e. the one with UNFCU and I'm really weary of this whole thing to be frank so I don't think I'm going off in that direction.
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Old May 30, 14, 7:05 am   #4672
  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdsearch View Post
Good luck having the person you talk to when you cancel understand the difference between chip & PIN and chip & signature! They'll just listen, ignore, and move on.
If you notice in the e-mail, I made it a point to indicate to them I expect (ha ha ha) whoever responds to it to be knowledgeable about what's going on. Believe me, I'm not holding my breath.
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Old May 30, 14, 7:18 am   #4673
  
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@JeffJaguar-

Why are you weary of the UNFCU card? I have it and it I love it, despite of the 1% FTF.
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Old May 30, 14, 8:17 am   #4674
  
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Originally Posted by uklevi View Post
@JeffJaguar-

Why are you weary of the UNFCU card? I have it and it I love it, despite of the 1% FTF.
I'm not weary of the card so much. I'm just weary of how moronic this whole "fight" and thing has become. Quite frankly, I'm beginning to think that once again American intransigence is at work here. The US has to do everything differently because after all we do everything in our own manner and if we do it, it's got to be better. Everything somebody else does, if not discovered or piloted by America, is disgusting. When I've commented on this elsewhere, I've had people call me a snobby Europhile whether it be on emv credit cards, on why we should have adopted the metric system generations ago, why we continue to cost our Treasury billions by continuing to print $1 bills (and $2 bills also although most people shun them). This also includes the ridiculous arguments about 2nd amendment rights (just compare the murder rates in other civilized first world countries, enough said there) as well as the silly fight against the ACA which is only a beginning to reforming health care in this country and inability to realize the advantages, and there are many, of a single payer health system. While the adoption of chip and pin credit cards certainly do not rank with any of these things, it is a further symptom of this problem.

Under other circumstances, I probably should have gone for the UNFCU card but to be quite frank, I never expected USAA to back down the way it apparently has. And like I've been saying all along, I am now firmly convinced that the notion of chip and pin in the USA at this point in time is probably doa. Maybe if credit card fraud goes through the roof, we will see some actual movement but I doubt extremely it is near.
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Old May 30, 14, 9:00 am   #4675
  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor of Credit View Post
MasterCard is changing their zero fraud liability to include PIN transactions (chip & ATM) starting in October.

Expecting a similar announcement from Visa, possibly with an earlier start date.
Thanks for the update. A source citing this would also be helpful. Here's what I found:

Mastercard extends zero liability policy to ATM transactions

The article title is misleading as it sounds like zero liability will be covered only for ATM transactions, but the article itself quotes "Mastercard....said it was extending its zero-liability policy for cardholders in the United States to include all PIN-based and ATM transactions" and further down the article it mentions EMV.
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Old May 30, 14, 9:02 am   #4676
  
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I know I've been guilty of straying off topic too, but can we please not use this thread to touch on topics suited for OMNI/PR? Stick to the merits of EMV.

You lose people when you use pejorative terms or try to bundle in analogies that people feel passionately about such as single-payer healthcare, 2A, etc. You have to keep in mind that the vast majority of Americans don't have an opinion on EMV or even know what it is. However, you are unlikely to sway someone who is steadfast in an opinion of some topic, so by using some of these examples of why the US should use EMV you will end up turning more people off to the idea who could have been persuaded.

While I would like to take you on point by point in OMNI/PR, it's like the line from the movie War Games. The only winning move is not to play.
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Old May 30, 14, 9:15 am   #4677
  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kebosabi View Post
Thanks for the update. A source citing this would also be helpful. Here's what I found:

Mastercard extends zero liability policy to ATM transactions

The article title is misleading as it sounds like zero liability will be covered only for ATM transactions, but the article itself quotes "Mastercard....said it was extending its zero-liability policy for cardholders in the United States to include all PIN-based and ATM transactions" and further down the article it mentions EMV.
This goes along with MC being in favor of PIN-based verification. What's interesting though is does this mean I'm currently liable for any PIN use of my card? I could think of a number of scenarios where people could set or find out a cash advance PIN and use it for nefarious purposes with a cloned mag stripe card.
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Old May 30, 14, 9:19 am   #4678
  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEFFJAGUAR View Post
I'm not weary of the card so much. I'm just weary of how moronic this whole "fight" and thing has become. Quite frankly, I'm beginning to think that once again American intransigence is at work here. The US has to do everything differently because after all we do everything in our own manner and if we do it, it's got to be better. Everything somebody else does, if not discovered or piloted by America, is disgusting. When I've commented on this elsewhere, I've had people call me a snobby Europhile whether it be on emv credit cards, on why we should have adopted the metric system generations ago, why we continue to cost our Treasury billions by continuing to print $1 bills (and $2 bills also although most people shun them). This also includes the ridiculous arguments about 2nd amendment rights (just compare the murder rates in other civilized first world countries, enough said there) as well as the silly fight against the ACA which is only a beginning to reforming health care in this country and inability to realize the advantages, and there are many, of a single payer health system. While the adoption of chip and pin credit cards certainly do not rank with any of these things, it is a further symptom of this problem.

Under other circumstances, I probably should have gone for the UNFCU card but to be quite frank, I never expected USAA to back down the way it apparently has. And like I've been saying all along, I am now firmly convinced that the notion of chip and pin in the USA at this point in time is probably doa. Maybe if credit card fraud goes through the roof, we will see some actual movement but I doubt extremely it is near.
$2 bills are mostly collector's items. I don't think I've seen one for at least a few years.

Back on topic though, I remember you saying upthread that you were okay with C&S as long as acceptance wasn't impacted. Considering that people haven't had problems lately with their C&S cards being rejected (that we know about), you should be okay for your trip.

EDIT: also, I prefer C&P, but it's what it is. At this point, we just need to make sure we can easily switch to C&P later on if that's what we as a country want. As in, don't do what Brazil did and install C&S only terminals everywhere
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Old May 30, 14, 9:26 am   #4679
  
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Originally Posted by tmiw View Post
I remember you saying upthread that you were okay with C&S as long as acceptance wasn't impacted. Considering that people haven't had problems lately with their C&S cards being rejected (that we know about), you should be okay for your trip.
If the PIN has changed to an online PIN then the card will fail with transactions that do offline PIN verification such as some SNCF ticket vending machines. There have also been limited reports of merchants refusing signature transactions in the UK. (This is not simply against the accept all cards policy. It is illegal against people with disabilities preventing PIN-based transactions in the UK.) Since getting EMV cards in my wallet, the only failure has been CityRail in Sydney. CityRail's ticket vending machines seem to use offline PIN verification based on anecdotes here and here.

Last edited by Majuki; May 30, 14 at 9:34 am
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Old May 30, 14, 9:28 am   #4680
  
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Originally Posted by tmiw View Post
$2 bills are mostly collector's items. I don't think I've seen one for at least a few years.
I get them as change when paying for parking at Universal Studios.

As a side note, the $2 bill equivalent in Japan is the 2000 yen bill. Holds the same status there too: highly unpopular, more used as a marketing gimmick. Oddly the value of the 2000 yen bill is equivalent to the $20 bill/20 Euro note which is widely used in the US, Canada and Europe.
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