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Old Jan 15, 16, 6:38 pm   -   Wikipost
FlyerTalk Forums Thread Wiki: USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature) [2012-2015]
Please read: This is a community-maintained wiki post containing the most important information from this thread. You may edit the Wiki once you have been on FT for 90 days and have made 90 posts.
 
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Posts from 1/1/16 onward can be found here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credi...signature.html

EMV wikipost volunteers: kebosabi

What is EMV?
EMV is a defacto global standard of technology where there is a visible microchip on the front of the card. It looks like this:

Who issues them?
See Google Docs spreadsheet in Post #1

SFOAMS also has created a list of excellent webpage that shows US EMV cards in a more interactive interface

Another site, which lets you narrow the search for an EMV card by various parameters, is http://www.spotterswiki.com/emv/index.php.

Several credit unions issue some form of Chip-and-PIN credit cards or prepaid cards. Prepaid EMV cards however are not recommended due to junk fees. USAA (currently restricted to members of military) used to offer Chip-and-PIN cards, but as late has backtracked to Chip-and-Signature priority.

Hey that's a cool Google Docs list! I know others that aren't on that list. How can I help by adding them to the list?
My bad for not putting this into the wiki sooner. Right now, the Google Docs is locked out of editing and only in "read-only" view because there were instances in the past where people would just delete the rows not thinking that it affects others viewing the list.

If you promise not to delete any rows and input all the pertinent info (annual fee, rewards, FTF, etc.), I can provide you with edit access. Just shoot me a PM to kebosabi with your gmail address and I'll provide you edit access.

Thanks for helping out!


As of October 2014, no USA-based card issuer offers Chip-and-PIN priority cards except for BMO Harris (Diners Club) and UN Federal Credit Union. Other major USA-based banks such as BofA, Chase, Citi, as well as others issue Chip-and-Signature cards which may work at many automated kiosks. However, bear in mind the word may is used above is a context where there is no absolute certainty of success for certain environments such as automated kiosks due to different natures of offline and online transactions. It is highly recommended to read Post #3 which lists real life FTer examples on how Chip-and-Signature worked and did not work at various transaction environments.

Can I upgrade it right now?
If it's listed on that Google Docs spreadsheet or SFOAMS' Silk page, wouldn't hurt to call/twitter them for a free upgrade. If you get the response you don't like, hang up, try again.

What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN?
You insert the chipped card into the slot. The physical contact terminal will read the EMV chip and the terminal will automatically read the preferred cardholder verification methods (called CVM) for that card.

Chip-and-Signature means that the terminal will printout a receipt for you to sign. This is the most prevalent authentication for most US issued EMV cards. Chip-and-Signature helps in a way that it will get through to face-to-face merchant transactions where you and the merchant do not speak the same language.

Chip-and-PIN means that the terminal will prompt you to input a PIN for authentication. Some credit union issued credit cards will have this CVM as secondary if Chip-and-Signature cannot be done. Chip-and-PIN is the more prevalent method of authentication used outside the US, especially in transaction environments where no human interaction is needed (i.e. automated gas pumps, toll roads, train kiosks, etc.).

The Google Docs spreadsheet will list which CVM are used in the EMV cards listed. Some cards can only do Chip-and-Signature. Other cards can do both Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN. And others might have a third option called No CVM (no authentication needed) which is reserved for low value transactions.

One chip can hold a lot more data, therefore it is capable of doing multiple verification methods. That's one of the great things about EMV over the mag-stripe which can hold very little data.

I want to know for sure what my EMV chip does. Is there anyway I can test out my own EMV card to see what the CVM list is?
alexmt has written up a nice step-by-step procedure on Post #3615.

If most of the EMV cards in the US is the Chip-and-Signature type, doesn't that mean it's still useless abroad?
Depends if you see it as glass half empty or glass half full. See Post #3 for further details on how Chip-and-Signature has worked both successfully and unsuccessfully depending on the merchant transaction environment and use your best judgment whether which one is right for you.

Are there any places in the US that are accepting transactions via the EMV chip?
tmiw has created a dedicated Google maps webpage to show where EMV has been proven to work here: http://emvacceptedhere.com/ Per his Post #4240, feel free to add any places with active EMV terminals if you come across one.

As of 2014/05, the EMV terminals in most Walmarts and Sam's Clubs are being turned on. Hence, the best place to try them out would be your local Walmart or Sam's Club. For other merchants, it's slowly being phased in.

I hope people will post them in the Post your receipt of your 1st EMV based transaction in the US thread. cvarming has shown us an EMV transaction receipt from Brooklyn, NY in Post #2380. I myself had my first EMV based (Chip-and-Signature) transaction in two stores in the Los Angeles area, as shown in detail in Post #2705 (courtesy of WhatWhatTech for pointing these two stores out)

I don't want a chip in my card. I heard horror stories all over the media saying hackers can steal my credit card info from a mile away.
There are two types of chips. One is contactless and the other is contact. Cards can be either one or the other, or both.

In the Google Docs spreadsheet, the cards that are capable of contactless payments are listed seperately under the "RFID or NFC contactless chip" column. If it says yes, then that means it has the ability to do contactless payments. If it says no, it doesn't have that feature.

The one that the media has overhyped about hackers "stealing your information wirelessly" was the contactless type like this:

You are worried about this happening, right?

You don't have to worry. EMV is a chip standard that can have both contact and contactless interfaces. With the traditional contact interface, this means you actually have to physically insert the chip into a POS terminal for it to be authorized, like this:

With the contact interface, nothing is wireless. No data is sent out in a stand-alone contact type EMV chip. With the EMV contactless interface, data is sent wirelessly.

Furthermore, contactless chip cards are required to show a symbol (looks like Wi-Fi symbol) somewhere on the card that to denote it's capability as a contactless card. For example, here's an example of a Discover Card with contactless capability (in which Discover calls "Discover ZIP") showing the contactless symbol on the back of the card:

Don't believe everything that the media says. Besides, millions of people all over the world from London to Singapore, uses contactless payments daily in extremely crowded subways and mass transit with nary any problems. There are multiple layers of encrypted securities and keys that are needed to break the code.

Frankly, giving your physical card to a waiter/waitress who takes the card out of your view is much more susceptible to fraud than contactless payments.

Why should I care?
If you are an international traveler, you will want this because majority of the world has or in the process of converting to this payment format.


In fact, in 2012, even North Korea moved to the EMV format, leaving the US as one of the countries in the world that hasn't done so.

In addition, VISA, MC, AMEX, and Discover have all agreed to incentivize the USA shifting to EMV payments by 2015 by shifting liability for fraudulent transactions to merchants if they do not have EMV equipment and the cardholder has an EMV card. So if you travel internationally or would like to get one before the others, you might be interested in getting one.


BS! I had no problems using my card in [insert whereever country], [insert whatever point in time]
If you stick to the tourist path where they have lots of visitors from the US, you should have no problems using your mag-stripe only card in hotels and restaurants, at least for now. But as things can change as things go forward.

However, consider that once you start taking the off-beaten path, go to non-touristy places where they are not familiar with mag-stripes, rent a car and use toll roads, fill up gas, or try to buy train tickets you might end up into a trouble of the machine not recognizing your card because it lacks the chip. Furthermore, a lot of toll roads, gas pumps, and automated ticket machines lack any human assistance to help you when you need it the most.

But [insert credit card company] told me all merchants that display their logo must accept them! All I have to do is report them for violating their agreements, right?
There are several factors against this.

1. You can only speak English. The merchant representative, most likely a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, speaks in a different language, let's say French. If you have no French language skills, how are you going to get your point across? Are you going to whip out your cell phone at exorbitant int'l roaming charges and hope the customer service is going to translate it for you on the spot? Or maybe you might actually know French. But how about Swahili, Farsi, Balinese, or the multiple languages in mainland China?

2. Just like US, the rest of the world's businesses uses part-time minimum wage workers as cashiers to cut down on labor costs. Most of their SOP training manuals are written by MBA types to not to do anything they are not familiar with. Do not expect them to understand the intricate details of credit card mumbo jumbo. You don't expect Taco Bell employees to understand the minute details of Discover-JCB-Union Pay agreements, right? Same thing the other way around: be respectful as a guest in their country, prepare in advance in their ways, avoid being an "ugly American" stereotype.

3. You are a guest in their country. You are a minority. If 99.9% of their country's people and other tourists from around the world uses EMV, do you really think they are going to accomodate the 0.1% of American tourists who only have mag-stripes credit cards?

4. Again, you are a guest in their country. How would you, as an American standing in line, react if a Chinese tourist was clogging up the lines at a local Taco Bell because the clerk doesn't understand the Discover-Union Pay agreement and has trouble communicating between Mandarin spoken by the tourist and English spoken by the Taco Bell clerk? Same way the other way around. You do not want to clog up the lines for everyone. The less hassle, the better.

5. VISA and MC make tons of money from merchants in that country. Say SNCF French Rail. It's a billion dollar company in France. Do you think VISA is going to pull the plug of their relationship with SNCF because SNCF refuses to do mag-stripe processing at their unmanned train station kiosk? Of course not. Be realistic.

6. And lastly, if you're up against an unstaffed toll kiosk, gas pump or train ticket machine, are you going to yell curses at the machine?

But I want my credit card to be able to be used in the US too!
No worries. They have not gotten rid of the mag-stripe on the back of the card for backward compatibility reasons, just like we still have embossed numbers on our cards for backwards compatibility to using those old carbon copy imprinters.

[insert own Hyatt card image front and back together with red arrows pointing to all the backward compatibility features]

You use the chip on the front of the card abroad (for now), and the mag-stripe just like any other card for the US. Basically, you're increasing your credit card's acceptance rate by getting a card that both via the chip and the mag-stripe. You're getting a better deal for free.

And when 2015 comes along and US switches to EMV, you'll be way ahead of everyone else too!


So why did the rest of the world and the US moved/moving toward EMV?
Primarily, due to fraud concerns. You see, the mag-stripe has been with us since the 1950s. It may have been the most high tech thing back in the day, but with the technology that is available today, any shmo can pick up a $100 USB magnetic card skimming device off of eBay and get your credit card info.

And unlike skimming off contactless cards which actually need the person to have l33t programming skills, skimming off a magnetic stripe has become so ubiquitous that nary a day goes about skimming fraud going on somewhere in America, from gas pumps, Michael's stores (2011), Target breaches (2013), restaurant waiters/waitresses, to even McDonald's drive thrus.

https://www.google.com/search?q=skimming+fraud

These type of fraud used to be prevalent in Europe. But once they started switching over to EMV starting over 2 decades ago, this type of fraud went elsewhere. It went over to Asia, Canada and Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. until they too began implementing EMV to combat skimming fraud. The US is practically the only country left that hasn't done so, therefore all the fraud that used to take place elsewhere is now happening here.


But EMV is old and it's not fool proof. Shouldn't we just skip over it and do something new instead?
Yes, EMV is old. It was developed in the 1990s and its smart card payment predecessor was first introduced in France. But as of today, it has become the defacto global standard of payments.

But then, what else is there? There is no other de facto global standard of payments alternative. For example, if we decide to skip over it and do something new, hypothetically like DNA matching technology, it still means US int'l travelers will continue to have problems abroad with useless plastic acceptance because no other country is using this DNA matching technology except the US.

Besides, nothing is fool proof. You can say that the bank vault isn't fool proof because you can crack it open if enough C4 is used. But your average low-life scumbag isn't likely to get military grade C4 easily either. But the bank vault does make it harder to get the bank's money over say a petty cash box. That's the point here. EMV is akin to a security tight bank vault, the old mag-stripe is akin to a petty cash box lying around inside the drawer.


I'm a business owner and I don't think EMV is going to take off. I'm not going to spend extra hundreds of dollars to upgrade my credit card machine. Convince me other wise why I should.
I can understand the added extra cost to your business once this switchover takes place. But before even saying that, look at your existing POS terminal. Does it have a slot somewhere to insert a card?

Most likely, if you had replaced your POS terminal within the past five years, you already have an EMV capable terminal. EMV is basically just not turned on yet from the processor and acquirer side.

If you have an EMV capable terminal, then a best bet would be to contact your acquirer to have the EMV feature turned on. You did your end of the deal already by having an EMV capable terminal, it is now the acquirers' responsibility to turn it on in accordance to the EMV switchover mandate.

And if you don't, you are going to replace your POS terminal anyway from common wear and tear. It isn't a hard switch-over. You can continue to use your POS terminal until it dies out because EMV cardholders will still have the mag-stripe on the back. And by the time your non-EMV capable POS terminal is up for replacement the market will be full with these newer POS terminals that can accept the mag-stripe, EMV, as well as contactless payments.

In addition, you may also want to check with your acquirer or processor about EMV capable terminals. Some of them are willing to replace your terminal for free in preparation for the US EMV switchover. Call and ask for details.


But what's in it for me? I'm the one that has to pay for the upgrade.
All the major card networks have given incentives for merchants for the upcoming EMV switchover.

If 75% or more of your credit card transactions are done on an EMV contact and contactless terminal, they are going to waive your annual PCI-DSS fees, which usually costs you around $5.00-$19.95/month per terminal. The overall long term cost savings of those compliance fees will be larger than the cost of an one time upgrade for the terminal.

The downside is that once EMV switchover happens and if you do not have a POS terminal that is able to accept EMV, the fraud liability shifts over to the merchant.

I own several fast food franchises. If I upgrade my POS terminals at all of my restaurants, it's going to cost me thousands, if not millions. I don't think anyone is going to use a fake credit card to buy $5 burgers. And if they do, wouldn't it be cheaper for me to eat the fraud cost?
Remember also that fraud isn't just committed by dishonest customers using fraudulent cards. Fraud can also happen with dishonest employees skimming off credit card data from the mag-stripe as in the case of a teenage McDonald's drive thru employee skimming off $13,000 of customers' credit cards in Olympia, WA. Consider the public relations fall out that your business may have if this happens (i.e. the big Target breach of 2013, where someone used a mag stripe card to load malware INTO Target's system). Is it worth risking to take such a huge PR disaster?
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Old May 23, 14, 10:42 am   #4501
  
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Cool. Does it actually work in places where Union Pay is accepted? Did they allow you to open the account in person in Canada, and can anyone do it?
It'll work pretty much anywhere a China-issued UnionPay card would, so yeah, it's nice for that. The only thing is I haven't tried it at an ATM since I've got zero-fee UnionPay cards issued in China while this costs a flat $5 per withdrawal.

If you want it, you just walk up to any of their branches in Canada, the issue being that they have less than ten and only two in Vancouver (where I opened up my account). Passport and proof of address were all they needed from me, though they did tell me I could only get a savings account- checking accounts and credit cards are apparently for Canadian residents only, though their credit card isn't terribly useful (their credit card is UnionPay-only, even though acceptance is even more limited than in the US).
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Old May 23, 14, 11:39 am   #4502
  
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It'll work pretty much anywhere a China-issued UnionPay card would, so yeah, it's nice for that. The only thing is I haven't tried it at an ATM since I've got zero-fee UnionPay cards issued in China while this costs a flat $5 per withdrawal.

If you want it, you just walk up to any of their branches in Canada, the issue being that they have less than ten and only two in Vancouver (where I opened up my account). Passport and proof of address were all they needed from me, though they did tell me I could only get a savings account- checking accounts and credit cards are apparently for Canadian residents only, though their credit card isn't terribly useful (their credit card is UnionPay-only, even though acceptance is even more limited than in the US).
Interesting. Is this the Passbook Savings Account or the CNY Savings Account?
http://www.icbk.ca/index_per_con.jsp...nu2.sub1.ssub1

I have to look into this - having an UP card would be great if it came with no hidden fees and such.
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Old May 23, 14, 2:48 pm   #4503
  
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Pen Fed does NOT work at unattended kiosks - Per PenFed themselves

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One quick sort of correction to your post. Most reports are the Pen, Andrews and State Department cards do function as advertised in unpersonneled kiosks. I'm sure there have been failures but not an overwhelming number have been reported here. The biggest problem reported here has been the automatic toll gates on some French autoroutes. But then again, that's been an ongoing problem long before this whole emv issue arose. At least that stuff is buried somewhere in here.
I just now read this answer from PenFed. The following is a quote from their most recent email to me (sent 11:48 am May 23, 2014):

"To clarify, an unattended terminal or kiosk should request your card's PIN.

Unfortunately, your card does not currently work with an unmanned kiosk because the card is looking for a signature first and the Kiosk is unable to
communicate to tell the card PIN is preferred- which is what a merchant can do at a Point of Sale.

We are looking into this because it was not our intention to disable this capability." (emphasis mine)

just FYI, I have a Visa Platinum Rewards card from PenFed - no annual fee, no foreign exchange fee

Last edited by prathmell; May 23, 14 at 2:53 pm Reason: clarity
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Old May 23, 14, 2:52 pm   #4504
  
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I just now read this answer from PenFed. The following is a quote from their most recent email to me (sent 11:48 am May 23, 2014):

"To clarify, an unattended terminal or kiosk should request your card's PIN.

Unfortunately, your card does not currently work with an unmanned kiosk because the card is looking for a signature first and the Kiosk is unable to
communicate to tell the card PIN is preferred- which is what a merchant can do at a Point of Sale.

We are looking into this because it was not our intention to disable this capability." (emphasis mine)
Thank you. I didn't realize that prticular card had this problem. In general the Andrews card and State Department cards work.
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Old May 23, 14, 3:04 pm   #4505
  
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Thank you. I didn't realize that prticular card had this problem. In general the Andrews card and State Department cards work.
It was like pulling teeth to get them to admit that this is the case. Isn't it a simple matter to program the chip to require Pin first then Signature? Why is this so darn difficult, and why is it so darn difficult to get a straight answer from the card providers.

I don't know how to edit the google spreadsheet, but I wonder if someone who can should post there that this card is Signature priority with no ability to request a pin at an unmanned kiosk.

Last edited by prathmell; May 23, 14 at 3:06 pm Reason: Addition
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Old May 23, 14, 3:05 pm   #4506
  
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It was like pulling teeth to get them to admit that this is the case. Isn't it a simple matter to program the chip to require Pin first then Signature? Why is this so darn difficult, and why is it so darn difficult to get a straight answer from the card providers
This is why if they're not willing to make the effort to have PIN work correctly where it's supposed to, then they might as well not bother with PIN at all and just be C&S only.
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Old May 23, 14, 3:06 pm   #4507
  
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It was like pulling teeth to get them to admit that this is the case. Isn't it a simple matter to program the chip to require Pin first then Signature? Why is this so darn difficult, and why is it so darn difficult to get a straight answer from the card providers
It's not. It's freaking bizarre that PIN isn't going top of the CVM list.
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Old May 23, 14, 3:42 pm   #4508
  
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It was like pulling teeth to get them to admit that this is the case. Isn't it a simple matter to program the chip to require Pin first then Signature? Why is this so darn difficult, and why is it so darn difficult to get a straight answer from the card providers.
Because most CSRs aren't trained readily to answer these technical concerns.

In the earlier years of this thread, CSRs didn't even know what EMV meant. They assumed "chip" was the contactless ones. And the copy-and-paste answer was "oh but per merchant agreements with VISA, they have to accept blah-blah-blah"

The next phase was finally training CSRs what EMV cards were and they did start issuing them per a request basis, but then came the technical problem of sending out wrong chipless cards over and over again because of internal communication issues. Some here have reported that early on when Citi was issuing out EMV cards on request, they would get a normal mag-stripe only card and had to try several times to get the right card. Even then, some CSRs were adamant that they "got the chip card, but you can't see it." LOL

Now the current phase is from the early adopters like us who are starting to get technical. Chip and Signature vs Chip and PIN, what is the CVM list, online PIN vs offline PIN, etc. etc. Again, something that CSRs are not readily trained to answer just yet.

At least that's starting to change now. But there are laggards out there (CapOne).

Last edited by kebosabi; May 23, 14 at 3:49 pm
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Old May 23, 14, 4:06 pm   #4509
  
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Exclamation Wells Fargo has CHIP + PIN (not signature)

I have a WF Visa Signature and I called a week ago to get an EMV card. Today I received my new card and I was expecting a chip and signature card but according to the literature that came with it, it is an actual chip and PIN card. From the brochure: "Q: How do I make purchases ... abroad? A: With the microchip facing up, insert the chip end of the credit card into the terminal. If prompted, enter your PIN." and "Q: Do I need to use a PIN to make purchases in the U.S.? A: Not typically... Outside the U.S., you may need to use a PIN at some payment terminals and unattended kiosks, such as the French rail systems or gas pumps." This was definitely a pleasant surprise! The only drawback is that it has a 3% foreign transaction fee but at this time I'm willing to pay that fee if my no FTF Amex chip and signature card won't work.
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Old May 23, 14, 4:16 pm   #4510
  
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I have a WF Visa Signature and I called a week ago to get an EMV card. Today I received my new card and I was expecting a chip and signature card but according to the literature that came with it, it is an actual chip and PIN card. From the brochure: "Q: How do I make purchases ... abroad? A: With the microchip facing up, insert the chip end of the credit card into the terminal. If prompted, enter your PIN." and "Q: Do I need to use a PIN to make purchases in the U.S.? A: Not typically... Outside the U.S., you may need to use a PIN at some payment terminals and unattended kiosks, such as the French rail systems or gas pumps." This was definitely a pleasant surprise! The only drawback is that it has a 3% foreign transaction fee but at this time I'm willing to pay that fee if my no FTF Amex chip and signature card won't work.
Sounds more like a C&P card with signature priority to me.
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Old May 23, 14, 4:19 pm   #4511
  
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...or a hybrid card (chip&signature with chip&pin capabilities)...exactly what many of us are expecting to be the primary US methodology.
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Old May 23, 14, 7:22 pm   #4512
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let's try to agree on our definitions.

Suggestion. A real chip and pin card is one with pin verification as the #1 priority (offline or online doesn't really matter).
Well, I disagree with that already! For those who have no interest in visiting France far beyond Paris, perhaps it doesn't really matter. But since there is at least one country where you can run out of gas without an offline PIN card, I'd say it certainly does matter if you do driving vacations overseas and they could include France.

Now, what really matters, if you're going to go to both France and Brazil (but I'd say in any case), is having a mix of EMV card technologies in your wallet. An offline PIN for where that's needed, a chip & signature for where that's needed, and whatever you prefer (which could be one of those) for most places, would be the ideal.

And, btw, does that mean the WF C&P card mentioned above is "offline", given that they talk about gas pumps in France in the literature that came with the card?
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Old May 23, 14, 7:48 pm   #4513
  
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Well, I disagree with that already! For those who have no interest in visiting France far beyond Paris, perhaps it doesn't really matter. But since there is at least one country where you can run out of gas without an offline PIN card, I'd say it certainly does matter if you do driving vacations overseas and they could include France.

Now, what really matters, if you're going to go to both France and Brazil (but I'd say in any case), is having a mix of EMV card technologies in your wallet. An offline PIN for where that's needed, a chip & signature for where that's needed, and whatever you prefer (which could be one of those) for most places, would be the ideal.

And, btw, does that mean the WF C&P card mentioned above is "offline", given that they talk about gas pumps in France in the literature that came with the card?
All quite true which illustrates what I am beginning to think is the real problem. It's not whether chip & pin is better than chip & signature or offline is better than online and all the rest, it's the lack of a standard worldwide where this country goes one way and that country goes another way and a third country allows both. That's where perhaps the networks are remiss quite frankly. One would think with modern technology a way could be found to have a variety of verification methods available to cover all cases.

I'll just use this as an example. For years, there were discussions regarding mobile phones technology. For a variety of reasons, gsm whether it's truly the best technology or not became the standard throughout much of the world. But in Europe, the frequencies used were 900 and 1800 mhz. In the USA and Canada, gsm was not necessarily the number one technology and in those places in the USA where it was, it was 850 mhz and 1900 mhz. But they came up with a solution, didn't they i.e. quad band phones. Problem solved.

There has to be a way, in the interests of all concerned, that we can come up either with one standard that everybody would use or the ability to have verification systems that can adapt to all methods. I think, although it has not gone completely well for the reasons we've discussed here, the US banks are reaching out to meet their needs (for whatever the reason that's chip and signature at the present time) with capabilities to use different methods (chip and pin, offline or online) in places where chip and signature doesn't work. So the bigger complaint is why can't we have 100% compatability (and while from a pragmatic point of view, 95% cmpatability will be good, if you're in a situation where the other 5% prevails, you will scream bloody murder.

Of course, that's utopia and it probably won't happen.
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Old May 23, 14, 8:17 pm   #4514
  
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Interesting. Is this the Passbook Savings Account or the CNY Savings Account?
http://www.icbk.ca/index_per_con.jsp...nu2.sub1.ssub1

I have to look into this - having an UP card would be great if it came with no hidden fees and such.
This is the Passbook savings account. It comes with a CNY savings account should you want it, but you can just toss C$ into it and start using it with UnionPay merchants just like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEFFJAGUAR View Post
There has to be a way, in the interests of all concerned, that we can come up either with one standard that everybody would use or the ability to have verification systems that can adapt to all methods. I think, although it has not gone completely well for the reasons we've discussed here, the US banks are reaching out to meet their needs (for whatever the reason that's chip and signature at the present time) with capabilities to use different methods (chip and pin, offline or online) in places where chip and signature doesn't work. So the bigger complaint is why can't we have 100% compatability (and while from a pragmatic point of view, 95% cmpatability will be good, if you're in a situation where the other 5% prevails, you will scream bloody murder.

Of course, that's utopia and it probably won't happen.
The more practical way might be to get the Canadian banks to offer their Canada-market products to US customers who want an offline PIN-priority card. Thus, for example, instead of sitting and waiting for BMO-Harris to start opening up Diner's Club again, you'd just ask them to apply for a Bank of Montreal US$ credit card (or their shiny new World Elite card if you want rewards even if it means having to pay your bill in C$). Or for just a few what-ifs, you'd ask TD Bank to get you a basic Canadian savings account with a chipped Visa Debit card, toss some money in there, and use as needed. You'd have your US-issued Chip+Sign card and your Canadian Chip+PIN cards and your bases covered.

Last edited by jamar; May 23, 14 at 8:26 pm
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Old May 23, 14, 8:46 pm   #4515
  
Join Date: May 2010
Location: ORDwest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reft View Post
To clarify on [US] credit card liability:

If you lose your credit card, a thief picks it up and uses it, you might be liable for up to $50. The key here is the card is not in your possession. If you report it before it's used, $0.

If the card is still in your possession, you have $0 liability.

The card holder must make timely notification in writing by sending or giving the bank a letter. Even if you 'chat' or email the notification, follow it up in writing since that is the legal requirement for protection to kick in.

Notify within 2 business days for a lost card and 60 days after billed (statement), for an unauthorized transaction when you still have the card in your possession.
I take your word that this is the "official" position. However, given modern communication media, well-designed card support capability and a cardholder actively sharing the responsibility to watch for fraud, this requirement for written notification is just silly and out of date.

Consider my own recent experience: the day after we returned from a Spring trip to the Phoenix area with lots of charges on my CSP card at restaurants, stores and hotel, I got a text message that my card had just been used for a $15 international charge to Telefonica N A MU - a communications company in (I think) Costa Rica. Definitely a fraudulent use of my card, so I called Chase, was transferred to the fraud unit to make a brief report by phone, and had a new card in hand the next day. On the phone with the fraud guy, I verified that other recent transactions were legit; just the one bad one, thanks to the prompt alert message. The new card came with a form summarizing my report, and asking me to fill in details of any additional fraudulent charges then sign and return the form. End of story.

When I wrote above that the text message said my card had "just" been used, I mean within the minute. Chase allows you to set fraud alerts for several fraud-prone transaction categories: international charge, gas station charge, and card not present transaction (online, phone or mail-order). You can elect to receive a text or email (might also be a phone call option) if any of these events occur. You can also receive an alert if a charge is made to your account over an amount that you set - i.e., you can be notified of essentially all transactions on your account. And most of these alerts are near instantaneous if the merchant uses online CVV, since Chase sends the alert as soon as the charge enters pending status.

So, unless you want to count the form they sent me to sign and return, no traditional written communication was required to ensure my rights were protected; the situation really didn't call for it, and Chase did not question my assertion of fraudulent use (not to me, anyway).

I would guess that, with tools like the Chase alerts and active account management by the card holder, card fraud losses could be limited. Of course there are lots of people who would never bother to set up or respond to alerts. And not every card issuer offers such a comprehensive or timely set of alert options. My USAA card only sends an alert when a transaction posts, which could be 2-3 days after the charge was made at the merchant. By that time, the fraudster could have furnished a house with a stolen card number.
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