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USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature) [2012-2015]

Old Sep 20, 2013, 11:40 am
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Last edit by: philemer
Posts from 1/1/16 onward can be found here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credit-card-programs/1739359-2016-onward-usa-emv-cards-availability-q-chip-pin-signature.html

EMV wikipost volunteers: kebosabi

What is EMV?
EMV is a defacto global standard of technology where there is a visible microchip on the front of the card. It looks like this:

Who issues them?
See Google Docs spreadsheet in Post #1

SFOAMS also has created a list of excellent webpage that shows US EMV cards in a more interactive interface

Another site, which lets you narrow the search for an EMV card by various parameters, is http://www.spotterswiki.com/emv/index.php.

Several credit unions issue some form of Chip-and-PIN credit cards or prepaid cards. Prepaid EMV cards however are not recommended due to junk fees. USAA (currently restricted to members of military) used to offer Chip-and-PIN cards, but as late has backtracked to Chip-and-Signature priority.

Hey that's a cool Google Docs list! I know others that aren't on that list. How can I help by adding them to the list?
My bad for not putting this into the wiki sooner. Right now, the Google Docs is locked out of editing and only in "read-only" view because there were instances in the past where people would just delete the rows not thinking that it affects others viewing the list.

If you promise not to delete any rows and input all the pertinent info (annual fee, rewards, FTF, etc.), I can provide you with edit access. Just shoot me a PM to kebosabi with your gmail address and I'll provide you edit access.

Thanks for helping out!


As of October 2014, no USA-based card issuer offers Chip-and-PIN priority cards except for BMO Harris (Diners Club) and UN Federal Credit Union. Other major USA-based banks such as BofA, Chase, Citi, as well as others issue Chip-and-Signature cards which may work at many automated kiosks. However, bear in mind the word may is used above is a context where there is no absolute certainty of success for certain environments such as automated kiosks due to different natures of offline and online transactions. It is highly recommended to read Post #3 which lists real life FTer examples on how Chip-and-Signature worked and did not work at various transaction environments.

Can I upgrade it right now?
If it's listed on that Google Docs spreadsheet or SFOAMS' Silk page, wouldn't hurt to call/twitter them for a free upgrade. If you get the response you don't like, hang up, try again.

What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN?
You insert the chipped card into the slot. The physical contact terminal will read the EMV chip and the terminal will automatically read the preferred cardholder verification methods (called CVM) for that card.

Chip-and-Signature means that the terminal will printout a receipt for you to sign. This is the most prevalent authentication for most US issued EMV cards. Chip-and-Signature helps in a way that it will get through to face-to-face merchant transactions where you and the merchant do not speak the same language.

Chip-and-PIN means that the terminal will prompt you to input a PIN for authentication. Some credit union issued credit cards will have this CVM as secondary if Chip-and-Signature cannot be done. Chip-and-PIN is the more prevalent method of authentication used outside the US, especially in transaction environments where no human interaction is needed (i.e. automated gas pumps, toll roads, train kiosks, etc.).

The Google Docs spreadsheet will list which CVM are used in the EMV cards listed. Some cards can only do Chip-and-Signature. Other cards can do both Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN. And others might have a third option called No CVM (no authentication needed) which is reserved for low value transactions.

One chip can hold a lot more data, therefore it is capable of doing multiple verification methods. That's one of the great things about EMV over the mag-stripe which can hold very little data.

I want to know for sure what my EMV chip does. Is there anyway I can test out my own EMV card to see what the CVM list is?
alexmt has written up a nice step-by-step procedure on Post #3615.

If most of the EMV cards in the US is the Chip-and-Signature type, doesn't that mean it's still useless abroad?
Depends if you see it as glass half empty or glass half full. See Post #3 for further details on how Chip-and-Signature has worked both successfully and unsuccessfully depending on the merchant transaction environment and use your best judgment whether which one is right for you.

Are there any places in the US that are accepting transactions via the EMV chip?
tmiw has created a dedicated Google maps webpage to show where EMV has been proven to work here: http://emvacceptedhere.com/ Per his Post #4240, feel free to add any places with active EMV terminals if you come across one.

As of 2014/05, the EMV terminals in most Walmarts and Sam's Clubs are being turned on. Hence, the best place to try them out would be your local Walmart or Sam's Club. For other merchants, it's slowly being phased in.

I hope people will post them in the Post your receipt of your 1st EMV based transaction in the US thread. cvarming has shown us an EMV transaction receipt from Brooklyn, NY in Post #2380. I myself had my first EMV based (Chip-and-Signature) transaction in two stores in the Los Angeles area, as shown in detail in Post #2705 (courtesy of WhatWhatTech for pointing these two stores out)

I don't want a chip in my card. I heard horror stories all over the media saying hackers can steal my credit card info from a mile away.
There are two types of chips. One is contactless and the other is contact. Cards can be either one or the other, or both.

In the Google Docs spreadsheet, the cards that are capable of contactless payments are listed seperately under the "RFID or NFC contactless chip" column. If it says yes, then that means it has the ability to do contactless payments. If it says no, it doesn't have that feature.

The one that the media has overhyped about hackers "stealing your information wirelessly" was the contactless type like this:

You are worried about this happening, right?

You don't have to worry. EMV is a chip standard that can have both contact and contactless interfaces. With the traditional contact interface, this means you actually have to physically insert the chip into a POS terminal for it to be authorized, like this:

With the contact interface, nothing is wireless. No data is sent out in a stand-alone contact type EMV chip. With the EMV contactless interface, data is sent wirelessly.

Furthermore, contactless chip cards are required to show a symbol (looks like Wi-Fi symbol) somewhere on the card that to denote it's capability as a contactless card. For example, here's an example of a Discover Card with contactless capability (in which Discover calls "Discover ZIP") showing the contactless symbol on the back of the card:

Don't believe everything that the media says. Besides, millions of people all over the world from London to Singapore, uses contactless payments daily in extremely crowded subways and mass transit with nary any problems. There are multiple layers of encrypted securities and keys that are needed to break the code.

Frankly, giving your physical card to a waiter/waitress who takes the card out of your view is much more susceptible to fraud than contactless payments.

Why should I care?
If you are an international traveler, you will want this because majority of the world has or in the process of converting to this payment format.


In fact, in 2012, even North Korea moved to the EMV format, leaving the US as one of the countries in the world that hasn't done so.

In addition, VISA, MC, AMEX, and Discover have all agreed to incentivize the USA shifting to EMV payments by 2015 by shifting liability for fraudulent transactions to merchants if they do not have EMV equipment and the cardholder has an EMV card. So if you travel internationally or would like to get one before the others, you might be interested in getting one.


BS! I had no problems using my card in [insert whereever country], [insert whatever point in time]
If you stick to the tourist path where they have lots of visitors from the US, you should have no problems using your mag-stripe only card in hotels and restaurants, at least for now. But as things can change as things go forward.

However, consider that once you start taking the off-beaten path, go to non-touristy places where they are not familiar with mag-stripes, rent a car and use toll roads, fill up gas, or try to buy train tickets you might end up into a trouble of the machine not recognizing your card because it lacks the chip. Furthermore, a lot of toll roads, gas pumps, and automated ticket machines lack any human assistance to help you when you need it the most.

But [insert credit card company] told me all merchants that display their logo must accept them! All I have to do is report them for violating their agreements, right?
There are several factors against this.

1. You can only speak English. The merchant representative, most likely a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, speaks in a different language, let's say French. If you have no French language skills, how are you going to get your point across? Are you going to whip out your cell phone at exorbitant int'l roaming charges and hope the customer service is going to translate it for you on the spot? Or maybe you might actually know French. But how about Swahili, Farsi, Balinese, or the multiple languages in mainland China?

2. Just like US, the rest of the world's businesses uses part-time minimum wage workers as cashiers to cut down on labor costs. Most of their SOP training manuals are written by MBA types to not to do anything they are not familiar with. Do not expect them to understand the intricate details of credit card mumbo jumbo. You don't expect Taco Bell employees to understand the minute details of Discover-JCB-Union Pay agreements, right? Same thing the other way around: be respectful as a guest in their country, prepare in advance in their ways, avoid being an "ugly American" stereotype.

3. You are a guest in their country. You are a minority. If 99.9% of their country's people and other tourists from around the world uses EMV, do you really think they are going to accomodate the 0.1% of American tourists who only have mag-stripes credit cards?

4. Again, you are a guest in their country. How would you, as an American standing in line, react if a Chinese tourist was clogging up the lines at a local Taco Bell because the clerk doesn't understand the Discover-Union Pay agreement and has trouble communicating between Mandarin spoken by the tourist and English spoken by the Taco Bell clerk? Same way the other way around. You do not want to clog up the lines for everyone. The less hassle, the better.

5. VISA and MC make tons of money from merchants in that country. Say SNCF French Rail. It's a billion dollar company in France. Do you think VISA is going to pull the plug of their relationship with SNCF because SNCF refuses to do mag-stripe processing at their unmanned train station kiosk? Of course not. Be realistic.

6. And lastly, if you're up against an unstaffed toll kiosk, gas pump or train ticket machine, are you going to yell curses at the machine?

But I want my credit card to be able to be used in the US too!
No worries. They have not gotten rid of the mag-stripe on the back of the card for backward compatibility reasons, just like we still have embossed numbers on our cards for backwards compatibility to using those old carbon copy imprinters.

[insert own Hyatt card image front and back together with red arrows pointing to all the backward compatibility features]

You use the chip on the front of the card abroad (for now), and the mag-stripe just like any other card for the US. Basically, you're increasing your credit card's acceptance rate by getting a card that both via the chip and the mag-stripe. You're getting a better deal for free.

And when 2015 comes along and US switches to EMV, you'll be way ahead of everyone else too!


So why did the rest of the world and the US moved/moving toward EMV?
Primarily, due to fraud concerns. You see, the mag-stripe has been with us since the 1950s. It may have been the most high tech thing back in the day, but with the technology that is available today, any shmo can pick up a $100 USB magnetic card skimming device off of eBay and get your credit card info.

And unlike skimming off contactless cards which actually need the person to have l33t programming skills, skimming off a magnetic stripe has become so ubiquitous that nary a day goes about skimming fraud going on somewhere in America, from gas pumps, Michael's stores (2011), Target breaches (2013), restaurant waiters/waitresses, to even McDonald's drive thrus.

https://www.google.com/search?q=skimming+fraud

These type of fraud used to be prevalent in Europe. But once they started switching over to EMV starting over 2 decades ago, this type of fraud went elsewhere. It went over to Asia, Canada and Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. until they too began implementing EMV to combat skimming fraud. The US is practically the only country left that hasn't done so, therefore all the fraud that used to take place elsewhere is now happening here.


But EMV is old and it's not fool proof. Shouldn't we just skip over it and do something new instead?
Yes, EMV is old. It was developed in the 1990s and its smart card payment predecessor was first introduced in France. But as of today, it has become the defacto global standard of payments.

But then, what else is there? There is no other de facto global standard of payments alternative. For example, if we decide to skip over it and do something new, hypothetically like DNA matching technology, it still means US int'l travelers will continue to have problems abroad with useless plastic acceptance because no other country is using this DNA matching technology except the US.

Besides, nothing is fool proof. You can say that the bank vault isn't fool proof because you can crack it open if enough C4 is used. But your average low-life scumbag isn't likely to get military grade C4 easily either. But the bank vault does make it harder to get the bank's money over say a petty cash box. That's the point here. EMV is akin to a security tight bank vault, the old mag-stripe is akin to a petty cash box lying around inside the drawer.


I'm a business owner and I don't think EMV is going to take off. I'm not going to spend extra hundreds of dollars to upgrade my credit card machine. Convince me other wise why I should.
I can understand the added extra cost to your business once this switchover takes place. But before even saying that, look at your existing POS terminal. Does it have a slot somewhere to insert a card?

Most likely, if you had replaced your POS terminal within the past five years, you already have an EMV capable terminal. EMV is basically just not turned on yet from the processor and acquirer side.

If you have an EMV capable terminal, then a best bet would be to contact your acquirer to have the EMV feature turned on. You did your end of the deal already by having an EMV capable terminal, it is now the acquirers' responsibility to turn it on in accordance to the EMV switchover mandate.

And if you don't, you are going to replace your POS terminal anyway from common wear and tear. It isn't a hard switch-over. You can continue to use your POS terminal until it dies out because EMV cardholders will still have the mag-stripe on the back. And by the time your non-EMV capable POS terminal is up for replacement the market will be full with these newer POS terminals that can accept the mag-stripe, EMV, as well as contactless payments.

In addition, you may also want to check with your acquirer or processor about EMV capable terminals. Some of them are willing to replace your terminal for free in preparation for the US EMV switchover. Call and ask for details.


But what's in it for me? I'm the one that has to pay for the upgrade.
All the major card networks have given incentives for merchants for the upcoming EMV switchover.

If 75% or more of your credit card transactions are done on an EMV contact and contactless terminal, they are going to waive your annual PCI-DSS fees, which usually costs you around $5.00-$19.95/month per terminal. The overall long term cost savings of those compliance fees will be larger than the cost of an one time upgrade for the terminal.

The downside is that once EMV switchover happens and if you do not have a POS terminal that is able to accept EMV, the fraud liability shifts over to the merchant.

I own several fast food franchises. If I upgrade my POS terminals at all of my restaurants, it's going to cost me thousands, if not millions. I don't think anyone is going to use a fake credit card to buy $5 burgers. And if they do, wouldn't it be cheaper for me to eat the fraud cost?
Remember also that fraud isn't just committed by dishonest customers using fraudulent cards. Fraud can also happen with dishonest employees skimming off credit card data from the mag-stripe as in the case of a teenage McDonald's drive thru employee skimming off $13,000 of customers' credit cards in Olympia, WA. Consider the public relations fall out that your business may have if this happens (i.e. the big Target breach of 2013, where someone used a mag stripe card to load malware INTO Target's system). Is it worth risking to take such a huge PR disaster?
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USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature) [2012-2015]

Old Mar 26, 2014, 12:19 pm
  #3721  
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Originally Posted by othermike27
Yep, that would get it! This guy is answering a question that nobody asked (nobody in this forum, anyway), and that really doesn't matter all that much for U.S. consumers. We have the protection of a maximum $50 liability in instances of credit card fraud, and that is reduced to $0 liability by competitive pressures in the market - a situation that has been stable for the last several years, and is likely to continue for awhile. So, the consumer is not really threatened much by credit card fraud - it's a nuisance, but it's not hard to deal with unless you just aren't paying attention to your financial affairs.

25 years ago, I had both my cards compromised (only had 2 then) the same month, likely my own carelessness. That experience was really quite comforting - cards replaced immediately, no liability for me, and no lasting issues. The system worked to protect my interests! ^^

No further credit card fraud issues since then until last Sunday, when I got a text message saying one of my cards had just been used to make a bogus foreign transaction - one of several alerts that users can set up, as I'm sure many of you have done. Within 15 minutes of receiving that text, the card is cancelled, and a new one is on the way. Only hassle for me is to switch around the auto-pay arrangements I had set up on the old card. That's a nuisance, but not a financial calamity for me. And because the card issuer (Chase) is smart enough to offer a variety of fraud alerts to card holders and I have enabled them, their liability is only that one $15 bogus charge. Again, the consumer (me) is protected just like it's supposed to work. ^^

So, am I scared to use my credit cards? Heck no. Am I going back to all cash? No way. The Gartner guy is just doing what consultants do - tossing off opinions on stuff. (I can say this because I'm a consultant myself, but not in this field. ) Now, let's get out there and charge some stuff!
I have seen concerns though that chip and PIN is the first step towards zero liability going away. "You used your PIN, so obviously it was you who made the charge" type of thing. Wouldn't matter what the law said then.
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Old Mar 26, 2014, 12:42 pm
  #3722  
 
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Originally Posted by tmiw
I have seen concerns though that chip and PIN is the first step towards zero liability going away. "You used your PIN, so obviously it was you who made the charge" type of thing. Wouldn't matter what the law said then.
But there would still be liability for phone/online transactions where neither PIN nor chip can be used. For in-person transactions with both chip and PIN, I do see them trying to limit the liability.
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Old Mar 26, 2014, 12:59 pm
  #3723  
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Originally Posted by michael_v
But there would still be liability for phone/online transactions where neither PIN nor chip can be used. For in-person transactions with both chip and PIN, I do see them trying to limit the liability.
Fortunately it still seems difficult to clone the chip, so that might mitigate this possibility somehow.
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Old Mar 26, 2014, 2:28 pm
  #3724  
 
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Originally Posted by tmiw
I have seen concerns though that chip and PIN is the first step towards zero liability going away. "You used your PIN, so obviously it was you who made the charge" type of thing. Wouldn't matter what the law said then.
I have seen those concerns expressed as speculation on FT and elsewhere online, but I haven't seen anyone in the credit card industry suggesting that is the direction they intend to go. Merchants, yes, but not the card users.

Even if zero liability were threatened, it seems unlikely to happen until Chip and PIN is the established standard. Let's see: (1) card issuers can't yet agree on whether Chip and PIN will be the standard; (2) most merchants and the rest of the processing chain have until late 2015 to implement EMV in whatever form, and; (3) gas stations have until late 2017 to finish their implementation. I'd say that gives us at least 3.5 years of zero-liability, unless something else happens to really shake up the world of credit card payments. I don't know about you all, but I'm going to find something else to worry about for the near term.
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Old Mar 26, 2014, 2:39 pm
  #3725  
 
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Originally Posted by othermike27
Yep, that would get it! This guy is answering a question that nobody asked (nobody in this forum, anyway), and that really doesn't matter all that much for U.S. consumers. We have the protection of a maximum $50 liability in instances of credit card fraud, and that is reduced to $0 liability by competitive pressures in the market - a situation that has been stable for the last several years, and is likely to continue for awhile. So, the consumer is not really threatened much by credit card fraud - it's a nuisance, but it's not hard to deal with unless you just aren't paying attention to your financial affairs.

25 years ago, I had both my cards compromised (only had 2 then) the same month, likely my own carelessness. That experience was really quite comforting - cards replaced immediately, no liability for me, and no lasting issues. The system worked to protect my interests! ^^

No further credit card fraud issues since then until last Sunday, when I got a text message saying one of my cards had just been used to make a bogus foreign transaction - one of several alerts that users can set up, as I'm sure many of you have done. Within 15 minutes of receiving that text, the card is cancelled, and a new one is on the way. Only hassle for me is to switch around the auto-pay arrangements I had set up on the old card. That's a nuisance, but not a financial calamity for me. And because the card issuer (Chase) is smart enough to offer a variety of fraud alerts to card holders and I have enabled them, their liability is only that one $15 bogus charge. Again, the consumer (me) is protected just like it's supposed to work. ^^

So, am I scared to use my credit cards? Heck no. Am I going back to all cash? No way. The Gartner guy is just doing what consultants do - tossing off opinions on stuff. (I can say this because I'm a consultant myself, but not in this field. ) Now, let's get out there and charge some stuff!
You hit the nail on the head but also in a way this has been one of the points banks here have made about their reluctance to switch to emv i.e. why pay the costs of conversion when the public isn't really clamoring for it (other than on this blog ) and that brings us full circle. (Of course a lot of people were woken up by Target). I also agree that I think it is absurd when people suggest not using credit cards for small purchases because of the possibility of having the card cloned. Please thinking like that is absurd and defeats the whole purpose of what credit cards are supposed to do.

And so we're still where we've been. I don't worry about moving to emv because of the fraud issue. Like you, I live with card cloning and it is most assuredly not identity theft which is a horse of a different color. What I do worry about is not being able to use my card lacking emv. It is for that reason that, if at least they can make it stick that all merchants will accept chip and signature, that issue, at least to me, is on the back burner. And we are getting there here. 2015 is just around the corner.
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Old Mar 26, 2014, 3:12 pm
  #3726  
 
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Originally Posted by tmiw
Originally Posted by othermike27
Yep, that would get it! This guy is answering a question that nobody asked (nobody in this forum, anyway), and that really doesn't matter all that much for U.S. consumers. We have the protection of a maximum $50 liability in instances of credit card fraud, and that is reduced to $0 liability by competitive pressures in the market - a situation that has been stable for the last several years, and is likely to continue for awhile. So, the consumer is not really threatened much by credit card fraud - it's a nuisance, but it's not hard to deal with unless you just aren't paying attention to your financial affairs.

25 years ago, I had both my cards compromised (only had 2 then) the same month, likely my own carelessness. That experience was really quite comforting - cards replaced immediately, no liability for me, and no lasting issues. The system worked to protect my interests! ^^

No further credit card fraud issues since then until last Sunday, when I got a text message saying one of my cards had just been used to make a bogus foreign transaction - one of several alerts that users can set up, as I'm sure many of you have done. Within 15 minutes of receiving that text, the card is cancelled, and a new one is on the way. Only hassle for me is to switch around the auto-pay arrangements I had set up on the old card. That's a nuisance, but not a financial calamity for me. And because the card issuer (Chase) is smart enough to offer a variety of fraud alerts to card holders and I have enabled them, their liability is only that one $15 bogus charge. Again, the consumer (me) is protected just like it's supposed to work. ^^

So, am I scared to use my credit cards? Heck no. Am I going back to all cash? No way. The Gartner guy is just doing what consultants do - tossing off opinions on stuff. (I can say this because I'm a consultant myself, but not in this field. ) Now, let's get out there and charge some stuff!
I have seen concerns though that chip and PIN is the first step towards zero liability going away. "You used your PIN, so obviously it was you who made the charge" type of thing. Wouldn't matter what the law said then.
The liability law is pretty agnostic on what verification method is used. It doesn't specifically say only signature transactions are covered for instance. The banks need to positively prove it was you who used the card in order to establish liability. A PIN does not meet this burden.

More to the point, even if the law weren't in place I don't believe banks would want to do this. They want people to freely use credit without fear.
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Old Mar 26, 2014, 3:17 pm
  #3727  
 
Join Date: May 2010
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Originally Posted by JEFFJAGUAR
I also agree that I think it is absurd when people suggest not using credit cards for small purchases because of the possibility of having the card cloned. Please thinking like that is absurd and defeats the whole purpose of what credit cards are supposed to do.
Agreed. My compromised card was one that we have been using for 10-30 transactions a month for almost a year. So, it was probably bound to happen, but we knew that going in. We have migrated from using cash for all small purchases to using credit cards wherever we can, to the point that we have to remember to use our ATM cards to draw cash every couple months so our bank doesn't shut them down for lack of use. (Which they did once.)
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Old Mar 26, 2014, 3:59 pm
  #3728  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
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Originally Posted by kebosabi
A brilliant solution by French Caldwell of Gartner, on The Myth of EMV

summary:

blah-blah-blah this, blah-blah-blah that, therefore "the best way to avoid credit card fraud is to follow the German example and just avoid using credit cards."



Yes, and I suppose if we follow his advice, I'm sure the best way to reduce breaches and hackings is to avoid using computers as well?
It's interesting how your post shows (and probably mine will) as a response underneath the article. They have some great data harvesting going on---perhaps by search, or perhaps by looking at the referer information for people who click on links to the Gartner article.

Anyway, the author also misses the cultural aspect of cards. Credit cards as we know them in USA are not prevalent in Germany. They tend to use debit or charge cards instead of credit cards. France doesn't use credit cards at all. In contrast, UK uses credit cards that are very similar to USA credit cards.
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Old Mar 26, 2014, 4:11 pm
  #3729  
 
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Originally Posted by othermike27
...we have to remember to use our ATM cards to draw cash every couple months so our bank doesn't shut them down for lack of use. (Which they did once.)
They do that? That's news to me!

Originally Posted by othermike27
We have migrated from using cash for all small purchases to using credit cards wherever we can
I think the problem is that a vast majority do not associate credit cards with potential rewards, and that in case like FTers, how we think that even small purchases add up to lot of miles or rewards points in the long run.

A bag of chips, Grandma's cookie, and a bottle of soda costs $4.08 at my nearest gas station on my way home that I buy every week as a snack for my drive home. Sounds small, but $4.08 x 52 weeks = $212.16, or 212 miles more per year closer to my dream vacation (which I've done many times so far) when I buy it with my CitiAAdvantage card. Pay everything that you need to spend money on anyway (i.e. utilities, cell phone, internet, groceries, gas, etc. etc.) it all adds up!

Alas, most people do not think that way. Sometimes we have to remind ourselves that we're the weirdos.

Last edited by kebosabi; Mar 26, 2014 at 4:24 pm
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Old Mar 26, 2014, 4:20 pm
  #3730  
 
Join Date: May 2010
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Originally Posted by kebosabi
They do that? That's news to me!
Yep, but it's a fairly small local bank. And the good news is that they don't charge fees for using ATMs in Europe.
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Old Mar 26, 2014, 6:07 pm
  #3731  
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Originally Posted by kebosabi
A bag of chips, Grandma's cookie, and a bottle of soda costs $4.08 at my nearest gas station on my way home that I buy every week as a snack for my drive home. Sounds small, but $4.08 x 52 weeks = $212.16, or 212 miles more per year closer to my dream vacation (which I've done many times so far) when I buy it with my CitiAAdvantage card. Pay everything that you need to spend money on anyway (i.e. utilities, cell phone, internet, groceries, gas, etc. etc.) it all adds up!

Alas, most people do not think that way. Sometimes we have to remind ourselves that we're the weirdos.
The same card every time? That's only 1 mile per dollar!

I would rather earn something like 16,67 miles per dollar (ie, about 3500 total instead of 212), which is what you get if you churn the Citi AA business card and use for everything while you're doing the $3000 spend to get the 50k bonus.

But it seems most people don't who collect miles don't even think this way. Sometimes we churners have to remind ourselves that even among FTers we may be weirdos.

(And, btw, I'm not an AORer, nor really an MSer. I just churn to the degree that I can meet the spend "naturally". I have figured out how to MS as "backup" in case I can't meet the spend "naturally" someday, but haven't had to actually use it yet. And to me, it's AORers and people who MS category cards instead of signup offers who seem like the weirdos! )
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Old Mar 26, 2014, 6:15 pm
  #3732  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
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Originally Posted by sdsearch
And to me, it's AORers and people who MS category cards instead of signup offers who seem like the weirdos!
CVS allows $5k in VRs per day and with the legacy AmEx Blue Cash that's $212.48 minus VR fees for < 30 minutes of your time.
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Old Mar 26, 2014, 6:56 pm
  #3733  
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Join Date: Jan 2014
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So my company gave me a corporate card because it's apparently against company policy to use your personal credit card while traveling. I'm happy to report that it's C&P priority! Looks like it might be the same CVM list as USAA's card too.

Card appearance:

Front of card

Back of card

CVM list:

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Old Mar 26, 2014, 8:34 pm
  #3734  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 401
Originally Posted by tmiw
So my company gave me a corporate card because it's apparently against company policy to use your personal credit card while traveling. I'm happy to report that it's C&P priority! Looks like it might be the same CVM list as USAA's card too.

Card appearance:

Front of card

Back of card

CVM list:


BMO Diners Club?
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Old Mar 26, 2014, 9:47 pm
  #3735  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Posts: 7,161
Originally Posted by emvchip
BMO Diners Club?
The image link to the poster's card (front and back) is a BofA Corporate Mastercard.
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