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USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature) [2012-2015]

Old Sep 20, 2013, 11:40 am
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Last edit by: philemer
Posts from 1/1/16 onward can be found here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credit-card-programs/1739359-2016-onward-usa-emv-cards-availability-q-chip-pin-signature.html

EMV wikipost volunteers: kebosabi

What is EMV?
EMV is a defacto global standard of technology where there is a visible microchip on the front of the card. It looks like this:

Who issues them?
See Google Docs spreadsheet in Post #1

SFOAMS also has created a list of excellent webpage that shows US EMV cards in a more interactive interface

Another site, which lets you narrow the search for an EMV card by various parameters, is http://www.spotterswiki.com/emv/index.php.

Several credit unions issue some form of Chip-and-PIN credit cards or prepaid cards. Prepaid EMV cards however are not recommended due to junk fees. USAA (currently restricted to members of military) used to offer Chip-and-PIN cards, but as late has backtracked to Chip-and-Signature priority.

Hey that's a cool Google Docs list! I know others that aren't on that list. How can I help by adding them to the list?
My bad for not putting this into the wiki sooner. Right now, the Google Docs is locked out of editing and only in "read-only" view because there were instances in the past where people would just delete the rows not thinking that it affects others viewing the list.

If you promise not to delete any rows and input all the pertinent info (annual fee, rewards, FTF, etc.), I can provide you with edit access. Just shoot me a PM to kebosabi with your gmail address and I'll provide you edit access.

Thanks for helping out!


As of October 2014, no USA-based card issuer offers Chip-and-PIN priority cards except for BMO Harris (Diners Club) and UN Federal Credit Union. Other major USA-based banks such as BofA, Chase, Citi, as well as others issue Chip-and-Signature cards which may work at many automated kiosks. However, bear in mind the word may is used above is a context where there is no absolute certainty of success for certain environments such as automated kiosks due to different natures of offline and online transactions. It is highly recommended to read Post #3 which lists real life FTer examples on how Chip-and-Signature worked and did not work at various transaction environments.

Can I upgrade it right now?
If it's listed on that Google Docs spreadsheet or SFOAMS' Silk page, wouldn't hurt to call/twitter them for a free upgrade. If you get the response you don't like, hang up, try again.

What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN?
You insert the chipped card into the slot. The physical contact terminal will read the EMV chip and the terminal will automatically read the preferred cardholder verification methods (called CVM) for that card.

Chip-and-Signature means that the terminal will printout a receipt for you to sign. This is the most prevalent authentication for most US issued EMV cards. Chip-and-Signature helps in a way that it will get through to face-to-face merchant transactions where you and the merchant do not speak the same language.

Chip-and-PIN means that the terminal will prompt you to input a PIN for authentication. Some credit union issued credit cards will have this CVM as secondary if Chip-and-Signature cannot be done. Chip-and-PIN is the more prevalent method of authentication used outside the US, especially in transaction environments where no human interaction is needed (i.e. automated gas pumps, toll roads, train kiosks, etc.).

The Google Docs spreadsheet will list which CVM are used in the EMV cards listed. Some cards can only do Chip-and-Signature. Other cards can do both Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN. And others might have a third option called No CVM (no authentication needed) which is reserved for low value transactions.

One chip can hold a lot more data, therefore it is capable of doing multiple verification methods. That's one of the great things about EMV over the mag-stripe which can hold very little data.

I want to know for sure what my EMV chip does. Is there anyway I can test out my own EMV card to see what the CVM list is?
alexmt has written up a nice step-by-step procedure on Post #3615.

If most of the EMV cards in the US is the Chip-and-Signature type, doesn't that mean it's still useless abroad?
Depends if you see it as glass half empty or glass half full. See Post #3 for further details on how Chip-and-Signature has worked both successfully and unsuccessfully depending on the merchant transaction environment and use your best judgment whether which one is right for you.

Are there any places in the US that are accepting transactions via the EMV chip?
tmiw has created a dedicated Google maps webpage to show where EMV has been proven to work here: http://emvacceptedhere.com/ Per his Post #4240, feel free to add any places with active EMV terminals if you come across one.

As of 2014/05, the EMV terminals in most Walmarts and Sam's Clubs are being turned on. Hence, the best place to try them out would be your local Walmart or Sam's Club. For other merchants, it's slowly being phased in.

I hope people will post them in the Post your receipt of your 1st EMV based transaction in the US thread. cvarming has shown us an EMV transaction receipt from Brooklyn, NY in Post #2380. I myself had my first EMV based (Chip-and-Signature) transaction in two stores in the Los Angeles area, as shown in detail in Post #2705 (courtesy of WhatWhatTech for pointing these two stores out)

I don't want a chip in my card. I heard horror stories all over the media saying hackers can steal my credit card info from a mile away.
There are two types of chips. One is contactless and the other is contact. Cards can be either one or the other, or both.

In the Google Docs spreadsheet, the cards that are capable of contactless payments are listed seperately under the "RFID or NFC contactless chip" column. If it says yes, then that means it has the ability to do contactless payments. If it says no, it doesn't have that feature.

The one that the media has overhyped about hackers "stealing your information wirelessly" was the contactless type like this:

You are worried about this happening, right?

You don't have to worry. EMV is a chip standard that can have both contact and contactless interfaces. With the traditional contact interface, this means you actually have to physically insert the chip into a POS terminal for it to be authorized, like this:

With the contact interface, nothing is wireless. No data is sent out in a stand-alone contact type EMV chip. With the EMV contactless interface, data is sent wirelessly.

Furthermore, contactless chip cards are required to show a symbol (looks like Wi-Fi symbol) somewhere on the card that to denote it's capability as a contactless card. For example, here's an example of a Discover Card with contactless capability (in which Discover calls "Discover ZIP") showing the contactless symbol on the back of the card:

Don't believe everything that the media says. Besides, millions of people all over the world from London to Singapore, uses contactless payments daily in extremely crowded subways and mass transit with nary any problems. There are multiple layers of encrypted securities and keys that are needed to break the code.

Frankly, giving your physical card to a waiter/waitress who takes the card out of your view is much more susceptible to fraud than contactless payments.

Why should I care?
If you are an international traveler, you will want this because majority of the world has or in the process of converting to this payment format.


In fact, in 2012, even North Korea moved to the EMV format, leaving the US as one of the countries in the world that hasn't done so.

In addition, VISA, MC, AMEX, and Discover have all agreed to incentivize the USA shifting to EMV payments by 2015 by shifting liability for fraudulent transactions to merchants if they do not have EMV equipment and the cardholder has an EMV card. So if you travel internationally or would like to get one before the others, you might be interested in getting one.


BS! I had no problems using my card in [insert whereever country], [insert whatever point in time]
If you stick to the tourist path where they have lots of visitors from the US, you should have no problems using your mag-stripe only card in hotels and restaurants, at least for now. But as things can change as things go forward.

However, consider that once you start taking the off-beaten path, go to non-touristy places where they are not familiar with mag-stripes, rent a car and use toll roads, fill up gas, or try to buy train tickets you might end up into a trouble of the machine not recognizing your card because it lacks the chip. Furthermore, a lot of toll roads, gas pumps, and automated ticket machines lack any human assistance to help you when you need it the most.

But [insert credit card company] told me all merchants that display their logo must accept them! All I have to do is report them for violating their agreements, right?
There are several factors against this.

1. You can only speak English. The merchant representative, most likely a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, speaks in a different language, let's say French. If you have no French language skills, how are you going to get your point across? Are you going to whip out your cell phone at exorbitant int'l roaming charges and hope the customer service is going to translate it for you on the spot? Or maybe you might actually know French. But how about Swahili, Farsi, Balinese, or the multiple languages in mainland China?

2. Just like US, the rest of the world's businesses uses part-time minimum wage workers as cashiers to cut down on labor costs. Most of their SOP training manuals are written by MBA types to not to do anything they are not familiar with. Do not expect them to understand the intricate details of credit card mumbo jumbo. You don't expect Taco Bell employees to understand the minute details of Discover-JCB-Union Pay agreements, right? Same thing the other way around: be respectful as a guest in their country, prepare in advance in their ways, avoid being an "ugly American" stereotype.

3. You are a guest in their country. You are a minority. If 99.9% of their country's people and other tourists from around the world uses EMV, do you really think they are going to accomodate the 0.1% of American tourists who only have mag-stripes credit cards?

4. Again, you are a guest in their country. How would you, as an American standing in line, react if a Chinese tourist was clogging up the lines at a local Taco Bell because the clerk doesn't understand the Discover-Union Pay agreement and has trouble communicating between Mandarin spoken by the tourist and English spoken by the Taco Bell clerk? Same way the other way around. You do not want to clog up the lines for everyone. The less hassle, the better.

5. VISA and MC make tons of money from merchants in that country. Say SNCF French Rail. It's a billion dollar company in France. Do you think VISA is going to pull the plug of their relationship with SNCF because SNCF refuses to do mag-stripe processing at their unmanned train station kiosk? Of course not. Be realistic.

6. And lastly, if you're up against an unstaffed toll kiosk, gas pump or train ticket machine, are you going to yell curses at the machine?

But I want my credit card to be able to be used in the US too!
No worries. They have not gotten rid of the mag-stripe on the back of the card for backward compatibility reasons, just like we still have embossed numbers on our cards for backwards compatibility to using those old carbon copy imprinters.

[insert own Hyatt card image front and back together with red arrows pointing to all the backward compatibility features]

You use the chip on the front of the card abroad (for now), and the mag-stripe just like any other card for the US. Basically, you're increasing your credit card's acceptance rate by getting a card that both via the chip and the mag-stripe. You're getting a better deal for free.

And when 2015 comes along and US switches to EMV, you'll be way ahead of everyone else too!


So why did the rest of the world and the US moved/moving toward EMV?
Primarily, due to fraud concerns. You see, the mag-stripe has been with us since the 1950s. It may have been the most high tech thing back in the day, but with the technology that is available today, any shmo can pick up a $100 USB magnetic card skimming device off of eBay and get your credit card info.

And unlike skimming off contactless cards which actually need the person to have l33t programming skills, skimming off a magnetic stripe has become so ubiquitous that nary a day goes about skimming fraud going on somewhere in America, from gas pumps, Michael's stores (2011), Target breaches (2013), restaurant waiters/waitresses, to even McDonald's drive thrus.

https://www.google.com/search?q=skimming+fraud

These type of fraud used to be prevalent in Europe. But once they started switching over to EMV starting over 2 decades ago, this type of fraud went elsewhere. It went over to Asia, Canada and Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. until they too began implementing EMV to combat skimming fraud. The US is practically the only country left that hasn't done so, therefore all the fraud that used to take place elsewhere is now happening here.


But EMV is old and it's not fool proof. Shouldn't we just skip over it and do something new instead?
Yes, EMV is old. It was developed in the 1990s and its smart card payment predecessor was first introduced in France. But as of today, it has become the defacto global standard of payments.

But then, what else is there? There is no other de facto global standard of payments alternative. For example, if we decide to skip over it and do something new, hypothetically like DNA matching technology, it still means US int'l travelers will continue to have problems abroad with useless plastic acceptance because no other country is using this DNA matching technology except the US.

Besides, nothing is fool proof. You can say that the bank vault isn't fool proof because you can crack it open if enough C4 is used. But your average low-life scumbag isn't likely to get military grade C4 easily either. But the bank vault does make it harder to get the bank's money over say a petty cash box. That's the point here. EMV is akin to a security tight bank vault, the old mag-stripe is akin to a petty cash box lying around inside the drawer.


I'm a business owner and I don't think EMV is going to take off. I'm not going to spend extra hundreds of dollars to upgrade my credit card machine. Convince me other wise why I should.
I can understand the added extra cost to your business once this switchover takes place. But before even saying that, look at your existing POS terminal. Does it have a slot somewhere to insert a card?

Most likely, if you had replaced your POS terminal within the past five years, you already have an EMV capable terminal. EMV is basically just not turned on yet from the processor and acquirer side.

If you have an EMV capable terminal, then a best bet would be to contact your acquirer to have the EMV feature turned on. You did your end of the deal already by having an EMV capable terminal, it is now the acquirers' responsibility to turn it on in accordance to the EMV switchover mandate.

And if you don't, you are going to replace your POS terminal anyway from common wear and tear. It isn't a hard switch-over. You can continue to use your POS terminal until it dies out because EMV cardholders will still have the mag-stripe on the back. And by the time your non-EMV capable POS terminal is up for replacement the market will be full with these newer POS terminals that can accept the mag-stripe, EMV, as well as contactless payments.

In addition, you may also want to check with your acquirer or processor about EMV capable terminals. Some of them are willing to replace your terminal for free in preparation for the US EMV switchover. Call and ask for details.


But what's in it for me? I'm the one that has to pay for the upgrade.
All the major card networks have given incentives for merchants for the upcoming EMV switchover.

If 75% or more of your credit card transactions are done on an EMV contact and contactless terminal, they are going to waive your annual PCI-DSS fees, which usually costs you around $5.00-$19.95/month per terminal. The overall long term cost savings of those compliance fees will be larger than the cost of an one time upgrade for the terminal.

The downside is that once EMV switchover happens and if you do not have a POS terminal that is able to accept EMV, the fraud liability shifts over to the merchant.

I own several fast food franchises. If I upgrade my POS terminals at all of my restaurants, it's going to cost me thousands, if not millions. I don't think anyone is going to use a fake credit card to buy $5 burgers. And if they do, wouldn't it be cheaper for me to eat the fraud cost?
Remember also that fraud isn't just committed by dishonest customers using fraudulent cards. Fraud can also happen with dishonest employees skimming off credit card data from the mag-stripe as in the case of a teenage McDonald's drive thru employee skimming off $13,000 of customers' credit cards in Olympia, WA. Consider the public relations fall out that your business may have if this happens (i.e. the big Target breach of 2013, where someone used a mag stripe card to load malware INTO Target's system). Is it worth risking to take such a huge PR disaster?
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USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature) [2012-2015]

Old Sep 3, 2012, 12:40 pm
  #346  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
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Originally Posted by soitgoes
Unfortunately, I think you are right about your limited options:
SECU offers chip/pin DEBIT cards (membership restrictions are tight)
AFCU offers chip/pin Credit cards with a 1% foreign currency fee (but does earn rewards) (open membership via ACC)
UNFCU offers chip/pin credit cards with an annual fee (membership restrictions are tight)
SDFCU offers chip/pin credit cards (open membership via ACC)

I think that's the extent of US chip/pin offerings right now.
My UK bank account with a chip-and-PIN debit card is always with me in Europe, but I haven't needed it yet. Perhaps it is time for a trip to France.
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Old Sep 4, 2012, 5:19 pm
  #347  
 
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Originally Posted by soitgoes
Unfortunately, I think you are right about your limited options:
SECU offers chip/pin DEBIT cards (membership restrictions are tight)
AFCU offers chip/pin Credit cards with a 1% foreign currency fee (but does earn rewards) (open membership via ACC)
UNFCU offers chip/pin credit cards with an annual fee (membership restrictions are tight)
SDFCU offers chip/pin credit cards (open membership via ACC)

I think that's the extent of US chip/pin offerings right now.

OTOH, one can also look at it as a percentage use basis, or what I'd like to call "use the right tool for the right job" idea.

As the reports have shown so far, a Chip-and-Signature card works in 50-75% of cases. The no annual fee, no forex fee BofA Travel Rewards card or any other Chip-and-Signature card that you like can cover instances where you deal with live merchants and online kiosks.

For the remaining offline kiosk situation, get the Andrews FCU card or the State Dept FCU card as a backup. They both have no annual fee so it costs nothing each year to secure yourself with extra security that you can utilize to cover all grounds.

Yeah, CUs tend to have more tough consideration guidelines to apply for their credit cards, but that's more due to restrictive laws that prohibit them from being more flexible like big name banks so there's not much one can do about this unless the law changes.

But, to cover my butt for the remaining 25-50% of cases where Chip-and-PIN is necessary and if it doesn't cost me anything to maintain the card year after year, I'll go through the hoops and bounds to get one. Once that is done and over (just like the good old days of taking final exams in college!), the rest is smooth sailing, I say.


In my case:

Chase Hyatt w/ EMV Chip & Signature - main card abroad
Andrews FCU GlobeTrek - backup card for Chip-and-PIN instances

These two cards cover me for all grounds now which makes my travel internationally that much easier. IMO, the choices available today are a lot better than what it used to be two years ago.


Sure things could be better. The Andrews FCU card could be better with no forex fee instead of 1%. But, I can also write a letter to Andrews FCU as a shareholder (that's what being a CU member is about) and tell them to re-review their GlobeTrek card policy to waive the forex fee and use the State Dept FCU card as an example. The more GlobeTrek cardholders do this, Andrews FCU may even decide to eat the 1% forex fee that VISA charges.

Compared to the wide variety of options and ways one can prepare themselves for purchases abroad these days, I'll take and make use of what is available today over nothing two years ago! ^

Last edited by kebosabi; Sep 4, 2012 at 5:31 pm
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Old Sep 4, 2012, 8:28 pm
  #348  
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Question on Citi's Premier CHIP and Signature Card

Does anyone here have the Citi's Premier card CHIP and Signature version?

So far I have not had any issue travel aboard without the CHIP card as long as we plan ahead on certain needs (such as fill up gas tank before the weekend, have enough changes for the toll, etc.) But I figure I would order one as we may need to do some train travels and the Kiosk would be friendlier with the CHIP card.

I requested one a few days ago via secured message and got a reply back that they are sending me one, but they also mentioned they ordered a PIN for me,,, I thought the US version of CHIP and Signature Card does not use PIN?! The PIN is only for the cash advance at the ATM?

You dont really use PIN with a US CHIP and Signature card, right?
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Old Sep 4, 2012, 8:49 pm
  #349  
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Originally Posted by kebosabi
Plus for me, the convenience of not wasting my precious time haggling over with minimum wage earning cashiers who can't speak English about the minute intricate details of credit card processing is well worth having one. Granted I don't go to France that often, but spending my time in countries where I can't speak Czech, Flemish, Russian, Polish, Finnish, Swedish, Korean, Chinese, Thai, Tagalog, Malay or whatever, just makes my life easier to just hand over a chipped card and let the cashier do what they are more accustomed to doing instead of using hand gestures, asking for a supervisor or a manager, getting into a 5-10 minute argument, with lots of irritated customers behind me.
While we have not been in Russia, Poland or where is the language Tagalog is spoken? We have been in all those countries you mentioned, with only our mag strip cards. We have counted less than 6 failures in all those trips. Never have to argue or anything. The cashiers actually know what to do - the failures happened when they either swiped it too fast or too slow. I actually often gestured to them that I, would swipe it on the machine instead of letting them do it - they usually let me and 100% of the time it was a "Voila" the little receipt came out.

We spent almost 3 months in HKG between Jan and Mar. Not a single incident our Chase Sapphire Preferred card is denied, nor the Citi Premier card.

We were in Prague and Italy (Milan, Torino and Rome) in May. I used my cards at every occasion where card was accepted. Never an issue. No need to even speak. At the end I had to stop using the card because I had to spend the $50 Czek currency I got. At the end I still had almost $20 left and spent them all at the little supermarket at the airport. I feel some here are way hyped about the usefulness of the CHIP and PIN cards - yes, they make travel easier, but they are NOT the must haves. Not having them do not mean you would not get going... As for precious time, big deal for the 10-15 minutes if that much.

Honestly, the CHIP and PIN card's value is ONLY at the unmanned spots - the kiosks at train stations, toll booth, gas stations. Anytime there is human interaction, the mag card works just fine.
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Old Sep 4, 2012, 9:02 pm
  #350  
 
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My daughter does not speak Tagalog and hasn't spent a lot of time in HKG, but maybe her experience this evening will be of interest here.

This evening she called to cancel her BOA Alaska Air Visa. She was offered, and accepted, a no-annual-fee "123 Cash Rewards Visa," which the CSR said has a chip "for international travel."
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Old Sep 4, 2012, 9:12 pm
  #351  
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Originally Posted by Middle_Seat
My daughter does not speak Tagalog and hasn't spent a lot of time in HKG, but maybe her experience this evening will be of interest here.

This evening she called to cancel her BOA Alaska Air Visa. She was offered, and accepted, a no-annual-fee "123 Cash Rewards Visa," which the CSR said has a chip "for international travel."
Seriously, most people in Manila or Philippines for that matter, speak English, not Tagalog... Dont you all notice these days the call centers have moved from Bangalore to Manila now? With the historical American influence, the Filipinos are very fluent in English and their accent is easier to understand than the Indians.

I have the 123 card that is from the old Schwab conversion. It is not a CHIP card. And I never see it advertised in BofA branch that this is a CHIP card. When you walk into a BofA branch, the 123 card ads are prominently displayed everywhere. You cannot miss it. Not a single word mentioned it about being a CHIP card good for international travel. The 123 card is geared to the 1%, 2% and 3% earnings (with a very low cap that the BofA ad never mentions.)

BofA has a Travel Award Card which someone has posted it just 2 pages upthread - that one is a CHIP card. I believe the rep is mistaken.
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Old Sep 4, 2012, 9:30 pm
  #352  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
Originally Posted by Happy
Seriously, most people in Manila or Philippines for that matter, speak English, not Tagalog... Dont you all notice these days the call centers have moved from Bangalore to Manila now? With the historical American influence, the Filipinos are very fluent in English and their accent is easier to understand than the Indians.

I have the 123 card that is from the old Schwab conversion. It is not a CHIP card. And I never see it advertised in BofA branch that this is a CHIP card. When you walk into a BofA branch, the 123 card ads are prominently displayed everywhere. You cannot miss it. Not a single word mentioned it about being a CHIP card good for international travel. The 123 card is geared to the 1%, 2% and 3% earnings (with a very low cap that the BofA ad never mentions.)

BofA has a Travel Award Card which someone has posted it just 2 pages upthread - that one is a CHIP card. I believe the rep is mistaken.
A chipped B of A 1-2-3 card is available upon request. However, other than the grandfathered holders of the late Schwab card who were dumped into the 1-2-3 card and were granted amnesty from the hideous foreign transaction fee of 3%, all other 1-2-3 cards I believe that have no annual fees have that immoral 3% foreign transaction fee. But as I said, upon request, they will issue a chipped version.

However, B of A has a new card, the travel rewards card with no annual fee, no foreign transaction fee and is always available as a chipped card.

As it stands today, the late Schwab card doing business as a 1-2-3 card, does not charge a foreign transaction fee but that is subject to change, not that I am saying it is going to happen soon, at any time.
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Old Sep 4, 2012, 9:34 pm
  #353  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
Originally Posted by Happy
While we have not been in Russia, Poland or where is the language Tagalog is spoken? We have been in all those countries you mentioned, with only our mag strip cards. We have counted less than 6 failures in all those trips. Never have to argue or anything. The cashiers actually know what to do - the failures happened when they either swiped it too fast or too slow. I actually often gestured to them that I, would swipe it on the machine instead of letting them do it - they usually let me and 100% of the time it was a "Voila" the little receipt came out.

We spent almost 3 months in HKG between Jan and Mar. Not a single incident our Chase Sapphire Preferred card is denied, nor the Citi Premier card.

We were in Prague and Italy (Milan, Torino and Rome) in May. I used my cards at every occasion where card was accepted. Never an issue. No need to even speak. At the end I had to stop using the card because I had to spend the $50 Czek currency I got. At the end I still had almost $20 left and spent them all at the little supermarket at the airport. I feel some here are way hyped about the usefulness of the CHIP and PIN cards - yes, they make travel easier, but they are NOT the must haves. Not having them do not mean you would not get going... As for precious time, big deal for the 10-15 minutes if that much.

Honestly, the CHIP and PIN card's value is ONLY at the unmanned spots - the kiosks at train stations, toll booth, gas stations. Anytime there is human interaction, the mag card works just fine.
Try using a magnetic strip card with the Dutch National Railways at any station except Amsterdam Centraal.

While based on my experience, at this point in time, for the most part you can use the antiquatred magnetic strip card at most manned or womanned locations throughout the world, that is changing. Perhaps at this point, very slowly but there are changes in the wind. At present, one can get a Bank of America travel rewards card with no annual fee, no foreign transaction fee and the emv chip albeit chip and signature. I would recommend trying to acquire it and carrying it just in case even though it may not extend any increased acceptance over the magnetic strip card as of today.

JMHO
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Old Sep 4, 2012, 9:37 pm
  #354  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
Originally Posted by Happy
Does anyone here have the Citi's Premier card CHIP and Signature version?

So far I have not had any issue travel aboard without the CHIP card as long as we plan ahead on certain needs (such as fill up gas tank before the weekend, have enough changes for the toll, etc.) But I figure I would order one as we may need to do some train travels and the Kiosk would be friendlier with the CHIP card.

I requested one a few days ago via secured message and got a reply back that they are sending me one, but they also mentioned they ordered a PIN for me,,, I thought the US version of CHIP and Signature Card does not use PIN?! The PIN is only for the cash advance at the ATM?

You dont really use PIN with a US CHIP and Signature card, right?
The question of the pin is an interesting one. I was under the illusion that the pin was only for use in cash advance transactions and had nothing to do with the chip (people have explained it's a difference between off line authorization and onb line authorization). Having said that, some have reported that in some places despite the fact the card is chip and signature a pin is requested and insertioin of the atm pin has worked although others believe you can enter most any 4 digit number in those circumstances and it will worki although the number of examples at least at present is few and far between.
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Old Sep 5, 2012, 1:56 am
  #355  
 
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Originally Posted by Happy
We were in Prague and Italy (Milan, Torino and Rome) in May. I used my cards at every occasion where card was accepted. Never an issue. No need to even speak. At the end I had to stop using the card because I had to spend the $50 Czek currency I got. At the end I still had almost $20 left and spent them all at the little supermarket at the airport. I feel some here are way hyped about the usefulness of the CHIP and PIN cards - yes, they make travel easier, but they are NOT the must haves. Not having them do not mean you would not get going... As for precious time, big deal for the 10-15 minutes if that much.
My experience in Prague and Brno was the exact opposite of yours two years ago when I was there. Lowly paid minimum wage earning cashiers just didn't want to deal with the hassle of processing mag-stripes for the sake of "corporate policy" or "scared I might do it wrong" or whatever they had in mind.

Add in the wasted time in calling a supervisor or manager, arguing with them with the minute intricate details of credit card policies (like they give a ...., seriously ), with the other guy speaking in Czech with me in English, with other irritated customers behind you staring at you like you're hogging up the line, it's soooooo much easier to just whip out a card that has a chip than dealing with all this.

And noting from personal experience that it can be a hit or miss, "but I had no problems using my mag-stripe only CapOne card in _____" versus "but my experience in trying to use the mag-stripe only CapOne card in _____ wasn't the case", heck, I'll just prepare myself with a card that has both the mag-stripe and the EMV. There, now I'm covered for both cases. Problem solved. Simple as that. Whereas the CapOne card used to be my preferred card abroad, it is now at the bottom of the list and my Chase Hyatt with EMV chip is the first thing that I whip out when I travel abroad today.

Like I said, "right tools for the right job." While others maybe fine to make fire by rubbing sticks together, I'd rather just whip out my Zippo lighter.

And if people are fine with wasting 10-15 minutes of their lives everywhere they go where change is happening (we're not the only country making labor cut backs to save a nickel or a Euro cent or a yen or whatever - "anything that can be automated will become automated"), that's their choice. In the meantime, l'll just whip out my Chase Hyatt card or my Andrews FCU card instead. While others who haven't prepared get to enjoy the experience of standing in long lines at the train stations like cattle and seeing their trains go by, I just head straight for the automated machines, use an EMV card and get going.

Besides, for the cost of nothing (Chase Hyatt has $75 annual fee but you get two free Hyatt nights anywhere in the world so net annual in my view is zero, BofA Travel Rewards has no annual fee, Andrews FCU also has no annual fee), it saves me hassle abroad. If it costs me nothing to help make my life easier, all the better.

Last edited by kebosabi; Sep 5, 2012 at 2:17 am
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Old Sep 5, 2012, 5:43 pm
  #356  
 
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Originally Posted by Happy
Does anyone here have the Citi's Premier card CHIP and Signature version?

So far I have not had any issue travel aboard without the CHIP card as long as we plan ahead on certain needs (such as fill up gas tank before the weekend, have enough changes for the toll, etc.) But I figure I would order one as we may need to do some train travels and the Kiosk would be friendlier with the CHIP card.

I requested one a few days ago via secured message and got a reply back that they are sending me one, but they also mentioned they ordered a PIN for me,,, I thought the US version of CHIP and Signature Card does not use PIN?! The PIN is only for the cash advance at the ATM?

You dont really use PIN with a US CHIP and Signature card, right?
Citi is getting us all very confused. I was on the phone yesterday with a Citi rep about my (newly acquired) AAdvantage Chip and Signature MasterCard.

I had called to ask about the PIN for this card. But 2 Citi reps (one in India, and then confirmed by a CSR in the USA) have now told me that the Citi AAdvantage Chip and Signature card does not require and indeed does not even have a PIN associated with it. Yes, that is indeed what they said...
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Old Sep 5, 2012, 7:34 pm
  #357  
 
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Originally Posted by GetawaysRus
Citi is getting us all very confused. I was on the phone yesterday with a Citi rep about my (newly acquired) AAdvantage Chip and Signature MasterCard.

I had called to ask about the PIN for this card. But 2 Citi reps (one in India, and then confirmed by a CSR in the USA) have now told me that the Citi AAdvantage Chip and Signature card does not require and indeed does not even have a PIN associated with it. Yes, that is indeed what they said...
See my response several responses above regarding the pin.

1. Just about all US credit cards can be used to take cash from an ATM (as well as within a bank branch at a teller). It is usually not a good deal as there are high fees and interest runs from the instant you get the cash although some banks do not have fees for this and if you are desperate and need cash as the interesxt is charged monthly, if you pay it back immediately, it isn't so bad. But leaving that aside, this is almost always with US cards an on-line transaction. When you insert the card, the software associated with the ATM makes contact with your bank and the pin, not on the magnetic strip or the emv chip on a US ard, serves as a gatekeeper so to speak. Upon entering the proper pin, the bank allows you in the door to get the cash.

2. Now here is where it gets confusing and frankly I still am unsure of the answer. Some have reported using a chip and signature card to make a purchase, not a cash advance, and the pos terminal asks for a pin. Now with the true chip and pin cards, the transacton is done off line. All the info is on the emv chip and that's where the verification comes from and the transaction is authorized. But as noted some have reported inserting a chip and signature card and being asked for a pin. They have then stated they entered the cash advance pin and the transaction went through as a purchase. Others have claimed you can enter any pin and the transaction will go through (much as the way with foreign credit cards say at a US self service gasoline pump when asked for the zip code entering 00000 and saying the transaction goes through. Frankly, there has been no definitive answer that anybody here can point at and say affirmatively the cash advance pin does the trick.

Most of the banks claim the pin only is used on online transacton in ATM's for cash advances but as I say who really knows.

I hope that clarifies the matter (although it might make it more confusing!)
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Old Sep 5, 2012, 8:13 pm
  #358  
 
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Originally Posted by JEFFJAGUAR
But as noted some have reported inserting a chip and signature card and being asked for a pin. They have then stated they entered the cash advance pin and the transaction went through as a purchase. Others have claimed you can enter any pin and the transaction will go through (much as the way with foreign credit cards say at a US self service gasoline pump when asked for the zip code entering 00000 and saying the transaction goes through. Frankly, there has been no definitive answer that anybody here can point at and say affirmatively the cash advance pin does the trick.
I can personally attest to that when using the kiosk for the canal bus in Amsterdam many years back on my mag-stripe CapOne card.

Back then, it was still possible to get around without a chip card. But there were places where signs on these kiosk that read "PIN needed for credit card transactions."

There were no chip readers, just a magnetic stripe slot. I inserted my CapOne card, and it told me to enter the PIN for this card. Since I didn't remember my PIN, I tried four zeros, some random numbers, and they both were rejected.

Back at my hotel, I called my mom to see if she could check my drawer to tell me what the PIN for this card was. After learning my PIN, I tried it again the next day using my PIN normally reserved for cash advances at the ATM. This time the transaction went through and was able to get my canal bus ticket. After this ordeal, it made me aware to keep the PIN numbers of my cards readily available somewhere or at least change it to something that I can remember.

After coming back and getting the bill, the transaction showed it as a purchase instead of a cash advance.

So even in the era of magnetic stripes, there must've been something going on in the background to tell CapOne that even though a PIN was used, this was a purchase instead of a cash advance. If that was the case with mag-stripes back then, I can certainly believe that this could be the same case with EMV Chip-and-Signature cards when prompted for the PIN at online kiosk transactions as well.


And this seems to be the case in Australia as early as last year as well:


Australia is undergoing EMV conversion right now so many cardholders in Australia still have mag-stripe only cards. Yet, as this photo from Sydney Ferries show, it says "PIN authorisation only (no signature option)"

Last edited by kebosabi; Sep 5, 2012 at 8:24 pm
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Old Sep 6, 2012, 2:24 am
  #359  
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Originally Posted by kebosabi
My experience in Prague and Brno was the exact opposite of yours two years ago when I was there. Lowly paid minimum wage earning cashiers just didn't want to deal with the hassle of processing mag-stripes for the sake of "corporate policy" or "scared I might do it wrong" or whatever they had in mind.
Are you traveling so much on vacations, or on business?

I would think that the experiences you're describing vs the opposite experiences that Happy is describing might be related to where you go once you're in those countries.

My experience if you hang out in areas that tourists are "expected" is that most merchants understand (once you quickly show them the back of the card) how to deal with a swipe card.

On the other hand, if language is an impediment, even a chip & (offline) PIN card does not even necesarily help. I am in Switzerland right now, and after picking up a rental card I wanted to buy some bottled water. I first tried a grocery chain (four-letter name starting with an "L", but I forget the exact name). I see only an insert-card-from-the-front terminal. I don't speak/read German, and the cashier doesn't speak English. I show them the swipe card (that I prefer, because it has 0% forex and extra points on GGD) but she says no. So I try putting in my chip & (offline) PIN MC and get some sort of message (without the word "PIN" in it) from the terminal. It "smells" like an error message, but I can't figure out what the story is. I try the swipe card in the same terminal, a slightly different message I can't understand. I try the chip & PIN card again, still undeciprherable (to me) messages. She asks "credit card", and I guess that maybe they only take debit cards there, who knows? So I give up and leave the bottled water there and walk out of the store.

I drive on down the road and see a gas station with a convenience store. The clerk there (presumably used to swipe cards from gas purchasers?), don't blink when I hand her a swipe card (swipe side showing), and it works perfectly (though a long wait, by some standards, to phone for authorization!).

So with experiences like this, I "modify my behavior" (as "only" a tourist) to try to shop at places where I'll get the least grief from my card. And because of langauge issues on the card terminals, I don't find chip cards to be the panacea that you do. (And, btw, this isn't the first time that a chip card has given me an undecipherable message not mentiong "PIN", just the first on this trip.)

But then, I'm mostly staying in hotels, mostly eating at restaurants that see tourists, stopping at gas stations more than other places, etc. I hardly ever "shop" while traveling.

So it may depend on your activities, as well as whether you're in tourist-expreienced places or not, as to how well swipe cards work for you, and how well chip cards for you.
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Old Sep 6, 2012, 5:27 am
  #360  
 
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Originally Posted by sdsearch
So I try putting in my chip & (offline) PIN MC and get some sort of message (without the word "PIN" in it) from the terminal.
In my experience with my Citi AA chip card and my Chinese chip card, I've gotten errors like "chip error, please swipe" and "no supported EMV application available". So it could be a broken chip or, as you said, it doesn't support the MC credit app.
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