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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbm12
CO has NOT sold coach fares that booked into first for non-CO/NW elites for the past several years. UA, AA and DL definitely have. If CO were to change their policy on this I do think it is a significant change.
Now we're getting into semantics of what those "UP" fares on other airlines really are. They are, in the vast majority of cases, first class fares masquerading as coach fares. They book directly into first class. They usually can't be booked into coach if you wanted to, except in irregular ops. They are almost always more expensive than the cheapest coach ticket with the same restrictions. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, then it is a first class fare.
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I see that, but I'm not convinced that it is truly a B-Up for the general public. The R bucket is a reward inventory bucket, not a generally available F bucket in the new scheme. My guess is that this is a vestige of the changes going on this weekend.
Maybe if you actually tried looking on CO, that would convince you that I'm not making sh*t up? Try EWR-LAS on 2/15/09, first class, lowest available. You will see one flight in First (F) and four flights in First (R) that are priced $50 less o/w. These First (R) flights have the BCOUP fare basis. Does that make them a YUP type fare or does that make them a first class fare? Does it really matter? Still trying to figure out what base miles and EQMs these fares will earn. CO Insider - please??? And FWIW, OnePass reward upgrades are available on some but not all of these four specific flights where the cheapeset paid first class fare apparently books into "R" inventory.
Quote:
FWIW, here's the fare rules on BCOUP. It doesn't mention anything at all about booking into R, F or any other first class bucket.
As has been mentioned, that information is never in the fare rules.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijgordon
Now we're getting into semantics of what those "UP" fares on other airlines really are. They are, in the vast majority of cases, first class fares masquerading as coach fares. They book directly into first class. They usually can't be booked into coach if you wanted to, except in irregular ops. They are almost always more expensive than the cheapest coach ticket with the same restrictions. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, then it is a first class fare.
I've seen some of those "Up" fares where it does book segments into Y where the F cannot be confirmed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ijgordon
Maybe if you actually tried looking on CO, that would convince you that I'm not making sh*t up? Try EWR-LAS on 2/15/09, first class, lowest available. You will see one flight in First (F) and four flights in First (R) that are priced $50 less o/w. These First (R) flights have the BCOUP fare basis. Does that make them a YUP type fare or does that make them a first class fare? Does it really matter?
I know that you aren't making it up. I even see that fare code on some other routes. I still maintain that this is something very different that CO has not done in the past and if they have made a decision to do so it it a major change for them. And I'm not fully convinced that it isn't related to the changes that happened over the weekend. There was a whole hullabaloo about one of the IAH-LHR flights getting canceled thanks to the work. There have been lots of things going wrong. I wouldn't put too much faith in it until things settle out.
As for credit, one always gets credit for what you pay. In this case it is a B fare that is paid (that is what you are asserting, right?). You should be credited based on the B fare rules, which are 150% EQMs and 2 EQPs, as has been mentioned before.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbm12
I know that you aren't making it up. I even see that fare code on some other routes. I still maintain that this is something very different that CO has not done in the past and if they have made a decision to do so it it a major change for them.
Again, I don't think it is a major change. It's exactly the same in function as the old "R" fares.
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And I'm not fully convinced that it isn't related to the changes that happened over the weekend....There have been lots of things going wrong. I wouldn't put too much faith in it until things settle out.
Well, never-before-seen fare basis codes just don't appear because of an error... And as these fares appear bookable NOW, I'd like to have some faith in something today.
As KVS indicated perhaps the mistake is that these fares are supposed to book in "A" inventory but the CO system is off and trying to book them in "R" like had been the case in the past.
Or perhaps they are mistake fares? I can't seem to pull them up on Orbitz or Expedia, only the higher "F" fares. Maybe they're CO.com specials like the Int'l BF fares? Who knows at this point.
Quote:
As for credit, one always gets credit for what you pay. In this case it is a B fare that is paid (that is what you are asserting, right?). You should be credited based on the B fare rules, which are 150% EQMs and 2 EQPs, as has been mentioned before.
No, one point I mentioned above is that if you book on CO, you will never know that the fare basis begins with "B" unless you click on the link to the fare rules. On the reservations page, it books into "R" inventory. But there is no mileage-earning information for fares with an "R" booking code. Hence my questions.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijgordon
Again, I don't think it is a major change. It's exactly the same in function as the old "R" fares.
Except that the old R fares were both sold and booked into R, a discount F bucket. For folks who have to book into Y the old R fares were not a viable option. These are selling as Y fare and booking into F, it seems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ijgordon
No, one point I mentioned above is that if you book on CO, you will never know that the fare basis begins with "B" unless you click on the link to the fare rules. On the reservations page, it books into "R" inventory. But there is no mileage-earning information for fares with an "R" booking code. Hence my questions.
Inventory and booking code are different. You're booking a B ticket into R inventory. I'd bet that CO credits it as a B ticket. That being said, the UA H-Up fares that book into A are credited as A fares in BD's program. That's a nice touch.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbm12
Except that the old R fares were both sold and booked into R, a discount F bucket. For folks who have to book into Y the old R fares were not a viable option.
See, I disagree here. Why is a "KUP" fare on AA that only books into "A" inventory any more allowable than an old "Rxxx" fare on CO that only books into "R" inventory? There is nothing inherent in the letter "R" or "K" that defines them as coach or first class fares. With all the alphabet soup among airlines most travel agents couldn't tell you off the top of their head which are coach and which are first class for every airline. But, these two examples both clearly book directly into first class, so if your policy requires coach travel, they both should be prohibited, since there is almost always a cheaper coach fare available. Again, think logically -- if it looks like a duck...
Thus in my view, there is nothing different about CO offering a BUP fare vs. their old "R" fares. Maybe there are some stupid corporate travel departments out there that would allow a BUP but not an R, but they are, in my opinion, stupid.
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Inventory and booking code are different. You're booking a B ticket into R inventory. I'd bet that CO credits it as a B ticket. That being said, the UA H-Up fares that book into A are credited as A fares in BD's program. That's a nice touch.
I'm glad you provided that example. AA also credits YUP fares that book into "A" and KUP fares that book into "P" as A and P, respectively because their award program credits flights based on inventory booking code, not "the first letter of the fare basis code". DL is the same way, I believe. I'm not really sure what CO is going to do, and I wouldn't take that "bet" if I were you... But then again, CO credits the current "B" fare the same as the old "R" fares -- 100% base miles and 150% EQMs. So while I wouldn't be surprised if the BUP fare does in fact credit like this, it's probably not going to be because "B" coach fares credit like this. Again, my guess - these fares are supposed to book into "A" and get credited as "A". We'll see what happens...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijgordon
See, I disagree here. Why is a "KUP" fare on AA that only books into "A" inventory any more allowable than an old "Rxxx" fare on CO that only books into "R" inventory? There is nothing inherent in the letter "R" or "K" that defines them as coach or first class fares. With all the alphabet soup among airlines most travel agents couldn't tell you off the top of their head which are coach and which are first class for every airline. But, these two examples both clearly book directly into first class, so if your policy requires coach travel, they both should be prohibited, since there is almost always a cheaper coach fare available. Again, think logically -- if it looks like a duck...
Thus in my view, there is nothing different about CO offering a BUP fare vs. their old "R" fares. Maybe there are some stupid corporate travel departments out there that would allow a BUP but not an R, but they are, in my opinion, stupid.
Dude, the old R fare (now called A) was a discounted FIRST CLASS TICKET!!! If you have a corporate policy against first class travel, then obviously, they wouldn't permit you to buy those when there are available fares for the back of the plane. The former H bucket, now the B bucket is a COACH CLASS TICKET. If your corporate policy requires you to book a coach ticket only, then obviously you could buy an H fare ticket but not an R fare ticket.
The only change here is that H (now B) is now immediately upgradeable upon availability in the same way that Y has been for a long time. H is still not a full fare coach ticket... that's Y. It still doesn't book directly into F unless that's available.
Tell me something... since you can book a Y ticket and end up with an immediate upgrade if it's available, does that mean Y is some sort of discounted F ticket?
If you're looking for what replaced the old R, that's A.
What about this concept is so hard to understand?
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This alphabet soup is killing me...let me make sure I get this straight:
Old R now books into new A (same rules, likely similar fares as R)
Old A now books into new F (same rules, likely similar fares as A)
Old H now books into new B (same rules, likely similar fares as H, now we get an instant upgrade if available)
Old B now books into new H (same rules, likely similar fares as B, new H is only 100% EQM)
As far as the *-UP fare issue - at CO, the R fares which equaled other carrier's *-UPs were legitimate FC fares which were unrestricted (in most cases) and irregular ops were reconfirmed into an F seat if one was open.
On the contrary, Delta's A fares had a secret hidden, and somewhat fraudulently marketed fare basis of *-UP which booked into FC, but were effectively a coach ticket with a free upgrade (like a B fare with an upgrade for anyone). In the case of an irregular op, you were often told by Delta staff that you had a coach ticket and would be reseated in Y without refund or other consideration if a F seat wasn't open for you.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bocastephen
This alphabet soup is killing me...let me make sure I get this straight...
Here's Scott's post with my notes
Quote:
Originally Posted by CO Insider
Front Cabin
--------------------- J stays as J 150% EQM and RDM from here down to Z A converts to F C stays as C P converts to CN Elite F/BF easy pass reward AU converts to CU Y-up or B-up D stays as D Z stays as Z R converts to A 150% EQM but only 100% RDM RN converts to AN non-elite, capacity controlled F/BF easy pass reward F converts to R Elite Upgrade bucket EN converts to O Plat elite F/BF reward E converts to I F/BF reward
Main Cabin
--------------------- Y stays as Y Still Y-uppable... still 150% EQM/100% RDM YN stays as YN Elite coach easy pass H converts to B Now B-uppable... still 150% EQM/100% RDM K converts to M From here down to G 100% EQM/100% RDM M stays as M MN converts to KN non-elite capacity controlled ez pass reward N converts to H B converts to K O converts to Q V converts to U U converts to V Q converts to G Now 100% EQM even if not bought at CO.com I converts to W From here down, 50% EQM unless bought on CO.com/100% RDM S converts to E W converts to S T stays as T X converts to N L stays as L GN converts to XN Elite Coach Reward G converts to X Coach reward
Obviously all the EQMs/RDMs would be on the revenue buckets only.
There are some other uses for some of the upgrade/reward buckets (like new R for upgrades, X or XN I think for bumps and other such issues, etc.)
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Last edited by texd; Jan 21, 09 at 2:45 pm.
Reason: to add blanket statement about upgrade/reward buckets
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texd
Dude, the old R fare (now called A) was a discounted FIRST CLASS TICKET!!! If you have a corporate policy against first class travel, then obviously, they wouldn't permit you to buy those when there are available fares for the back of the plane. The former H bucket, now the B bucket is a COACH CLASS TICKET. If your corporate policy requires you to book a coach ticket only, then obviously you could buy an H fare ticket but not an R fare ticket.
The only change here is that H (now B) is now immediately upgradeable upon availability in the same way that Y has been for a long time. H is still not a full fare coach ticket... that's Y. It still doesn't book directly into F unless that's available.
Tell me something... since you can book a Y ticket and end up with an immediate upgrade if it's available, does that mean Y is some sort of discounted F ticket?
If you're looking for what replaced the old R, that's A.
What about this concept is so hard to understand?
Dude, you're the one that doesn't seem to understand. I'm not questioning ANYTHING about the run-of-the-mill B-class coach fares (formerly H) that now allow ELITE's to upgrade into first class, AFTER ticketing, IF available. Read the chain of posts again carefully.
Your mileage posting will likely be delayed. If you’ve traveled or plan to travel between Thu. Jan. 15 and Tue. Jan. 20, there could be a delay in posting your mileage credit. We have a little bit of a backlog due to this update, and we expect to be caught up by the end of this week.
It seems there are still some problems with mileage postings due to the fare class changes. On my trip to the DO, my return flight on Sunday 2/8 posted but my outbound flight on Friday 2/6 did not.
I tried using the online missing mileage claim form, but it told me that "Credit for this ticket number has already been applied to the OnePass account." I then called the OPSC, and the rep I spoke with said it was because the flight was originally in I class (now W), and I class is now a reward class. She also said that the system was recognizing the Chatauqua flight number (5529) as a Delta codeshare flight, which compounded the problem somehow.
She told me that she couldn't fix it manually, but they're working on fixing this in the system and to call back in two weeks if it still hasn't posted.
Just thought I'd let people know, in case they're running into similar posting issues...
I noticed today that a flight I took last week on a codeshare CO flight, Air Europa equipment, originally purchased as a Q fare before the fare class changes, was never changed to G as it should have been and since the ticket was not purchased on Co.com, I got only 50% of the miles as EQM. The other flights on the ticket were changed from Q to G, and I earned 100% of the miles as EQM, just this one segment as a codeshare was not changed. I sent onepass an email about it, but thought I would alert others that there are some lingering fare class change problems.
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I'm not sure if this is the right thread but I thought I'd post here and see if someone can answer my question.
A friend of mine (NW Silver Elite) is flying Continental tomorrow. She was not upgraded at the silver window. However, she did do OLCI at the 24-hour mark. During check-in she was asked the usual question about an elite upgrade if one is available. She clicked "Yes". The system came back and gave her an upgrade and she was able to select a seat in first class. All is fine.
The "issue" is that the boarding pass and the reservation online now shows the flight as "First (F)" class. The upgrade pulled from the "F" bucket. Here are my questions:
1. Why did the upgrade pull from the "F" bucket?
2. Is there a bug in CO's systems that will pull upgrades from "F" during OLCI but all other upgrades come from "R"?
3. Why did the system not upgrade her at the silver elite EUA window (presumably a couple of minutes before check-in even opens for the flight) but then give her an "F" seat?
Again, not saying there's a problem per se. Just odd that she was upgraded straight into "F". Since CO doesn't transmit e-ticket info to NW during mileage posting, it's possible my friend will receive 150% EQM if NW believes she paid for "F".
But then again, CO credits the current "B" fare the same as the old "R" fares -- 100% base miles and 150% EQMs. So while I wouldn't be surprised if the BUP fare does in fact credit like this, it's probably not going to be because "B" coach fares credit like this. Again, my guess - these fares are supposed to book into "A" and get credited as "A". We'll see what happens...
