I think most of us here are quite "fair" in most of our postings and informative.
If we look back at all of the people that have been helped by postings in this area we've made (I would argue) travel to China and/or life/settling in there, far easier and less intimidating for many.
I disagree on this thread being "sensationalistic and voyeuristic"
Jamoldo is spot on
The China Forum is carefully scrutinized by experts with unbiased opinions.
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I'd like to make some clarifications. Members are free to delete and edit their posts on FlyerTalk, but members cannot decide a thread, especially a 13-page thread that is appropriate for FlyerTalk and may be helpful and of interest to travelers, must be deleted. There are posts here from many different people and, so long as they are within the rules, a few members may not "vote" to remove others' posts. You may remove and edit your own, and you may report other posts if you feel they are against the rules.
I had started removing the posts that began polling on deleting the thread because, the senior moderators agreed, that is not permitted. I apologize for not putting a note here sooner. If you have further questions or concerns, feel free to PM me.
I'd also like to note that no one has ever been banned nor would they be for asking to have a thread deleted. The most that we would ask is you read the rules and realize you are responsible for your own posts, but not for those of others.
Really? If someone had posted that on FT, I would be at least somewhat incredulous...
If it is true, it is both scary and v. sad.
tb
PS the cityweekend story is somewhat more chilling (perhaps because of lack of superlatives). An unprovoked attack, not at a club, not late...v. scary.
Last edited by trueblu; Aug 20, 12 at 8:42 am..
Reason: PS
PS the cityweekend story is somewhat more chilling (perhaps because of lack of superlatives). An unprovoked attack, not at a club, not late...v. scary.
Personally, I'm incredulous of both these accounts. If you read the comments on the Cityweekend article, this appears to be an entirely unconfirmed report; the journalist (if we can call him that) seems to be basing this entirely on an email with no fact-checking whatsoever. She admits to not even knowing the alleged victim's nationality.
The post on TripAdvisor is even less credible, is from someone with no posting history, and the repeated mentions of the name of the club where the alleged incident took place combined with the poor English of the poster makes me a bit suspicious that this is a rival club owner or someone else with a specific axe to grind.
The accounts earlier this year, with video evidence or embassy backing, struck me as far more reliable. FWIW, I still haven't heard any first-hand reports of these types of incidents from any of my friends here (or experienced any such events myself!), all of whom frequently go out clubbing here in SH and walk around alone in the middle of the night.
Personally, I'm incredulous of both these accounts. If you read the comments on the Cityweekend article, this appears to be an entirely unconfirmed report; the journalist (if we can call him that) seems to be basing this entirely on an email with no fact-checking whatsoever. She admits to not even knowing the alleged victim's nationality.
The post on TripAdvisor is even less credible, is from someone with no posting history, and the repeated mentions of the name of the club where the alleged incident took place combined with the poor English of the poster makes me a bit suspicious that this is a rival club owner or someone else with a specific axe to grind.
The accounts earlier this year, with video evidence or embassy backing, struck me as far more reliable. FWIW, I still haven't heard any first-hand reports of these types of incidents from any of my friends here (or experienced any such events myself!), all of whom frequently go out clubbing here in SH and walk around alone in the middle of the night.
It's sometimes good to be skeptical but it's stupid to be staring a change in conditions right in the face, and decide to keep your head in the sand. Whether you choose to believe it or not, unprovoked attacks on foreigners are on the increase. Not drunken bar brawls over a girl or false honor. Unprovoked attacks. Sneak attacks. Full stop. I've heard of about a dozen in the last 3 months in Beijing alone. The incident described in City Weekend took place at 8 pm on Friday, in the exact spot I was walking at 8 pm on Thursday the day before. That's scary.
As for criticizing the person who wrote the Trip Advisor account, to me it sounds like a foreigner whose native language is not English. A European or perhaps an African. It's not written like a Chinese, attempting to fake being a foreigner, would write. Call me guillible if you want, but I believe this account.
You say you want proof but this is the essence of the problem--there isn't (can't be) any real news coverage of Chinese-on-foreigner crime since it gets ruthlessly suppressed. Right now, the most reliable source is the expat jungle wireless. For better or worse. And for reasons known only to them, most Embassies are either very sparing or very late with warnings. They certain don't publish a laundry list of confirmed incidents, more's the pity.
I posted the link just because I thought people should be a aware that random violence does happen in China though not just against foreigners. It is far safer a place than many countries, particularly the US so although one should be practical, especially when going out, there is no need to be paranoid.
I have 2 stories regarding random violence.
1. 2005, a friend of mine a caucasian american was all on his own, very drunk and at the club Vics. He was (as he remembers) pulled out as he left the club, thrown in a cab and taken to some sort of room where he was sat in a chair and questioned intensely and "roughed" up and intimidated. He only remembers saying that he "didn't know what was going on." About 45 minutes later, he was put back in a cab, and at Vics again, his wallet and valuable untouched. Guess they got the wrong guy... He left our program a few days later and was shaken up by the experience but not so much that he didn't come back to China. Didn't need stiches or anything, mostly bruises. Lesson: don't go to the club alone, and if you do, don't get super duper drunk.
2. 2012, a friend of mine, ethnic Chinese, born in China, speaks Chinese fluently (Sichuanese accent) was in Shanghai and on his way back from a club in Shanghai. He made it to near his father's apartment in suburban Pudong and went to the ATM to get some money. Was unable to get money (probably too drunk) and as he left the ATM was asked for money. He said he was unable to get any, at which point he was jumped. He was quickly surrounded by 2 guys and was being punched and kicked. He fought back for about a minute and then thinking better of it started to run. Another car came up and another 2-3 guys came out and the combined guys started to punch and kick him. He tried to fight back as he was surrounded and then went into fetal position. He felt there was a quick pause and got up ran as fast as he could and was able to escape but had to spend a day at the hospital getting stitches, x-rays etc. How did I find out? I texted the guy to confirm a lunch in HK with him the following day, only to get a response: "I'm in the hospital - will say more when back in HK"
I'm telling these stories to illustrate that although these things do happen in China, they are not too common but for folks to use common sense. I am also telling these stories to hopefully calm folks that this is not limited to foreigners as the above statement. My Chinese friend is not a flashy guy by any means.
Edited to add: the full details of both stories are most certainly not exact and from my memory, but hopefully everyone understands the main idea I am trying to convey...
Sorry Jamoldo, but you're deflecting the issue. There has ALWAYS been Chinese-on-Chinese violence. But Chinese-on-foreigner violence that is unprovoked and not part of a robbery attempt is a new phenomenon, and deserves not to be buried in a "Oh it's just business as usual" trivialization.
I've been here a long time, and I can emphatically state that what has been going on this year is NOT NORMAL. I can't speak for other Chinese cities, but Beijing for foreigners is not as safe as it has been in the past. That doesn't mean that people shouldn't come and visit--we're not talking Detroit, Johannesburg or even Bangkok here. But particularly in the evenings, one simply can't go around thinking that because you're a foreigner, you're in a protective bubble.
And maybe that's the difference. There is not as much a foreign bubble anymore... Unprovoked violence, regardless of looks/ethnicity affects everyone.
I've heard more stories with friends of Chinese on Chinese violence then in years past when I was living in Beijing. It would not surprise me if this was correlated with rises in inequality.
That being said, I live in HK and am only an occasional (usually for work) visitor to Beijing/Shanghai...
