MSP TSA failing at 95% rate!

Old Jul 4, 2017, 10:17 am
  #31  
 
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Originally Posted by FliesWay2Much
Look, pal... We are bloody tired of your drivel. If you have sources to contradict the media reports about your incompetence, sexual assaults and crimes, produce them. We on FT are educated and professional. We are bloody tired of the excuse that "proper procedures were followed." We, many of whom are in the national security and "threat" arena, disagree with your tactics as having anything to do with civil aviation security.

We know peer-reviewed science when we see it and are more than willing and able to engage in professional and competent dialogue on any number of subjects. Many of us have decades of experience in intelligence, national security and defense. We are bloody tired of being talked down to and being lectured to. If you have substance, bring it. We can take it. If you have no substance, don't waste your time and ours.

What will you do when they come for you?
I am glad we are pals, it is nice to find a new one!

I am sorry you consider me voicing facts, and reiterating published information as drivel, I am sorry that you are frustrated because I ask for proof, not conjecture or personal opinions on these types of incidents. I would hope that all of you would request proof of things, and be willing to not accept a blog post or anonymous article or some other social media post as fact, without some form of proof. I sometimes give opinions on what I see - sometimes they are wrong (as I am willing to change my mind when new information becomes available), sometimes they are right. If you have sources that can produce proof to back up what these unnamed sources are stating, I would love to see them - again, not saying that this did not happen, merely that unnamed/anonymous sources are notoriously one sided (their own most of the time), and by definition, unverifiable to outside elements (like us). When a TSO follows proper procedure and you disagree with the procedure, it does not mean that the TSO is in the wrong. The larger discussion to have, is your disagreement with the actual policy, not the individual.


Like some others here, I have plenty of experience in National Security, Homeland Defense, application of Real Time Threat Assessments and Intel, among other things. That experience doesn't mean I am always right on things, nor does it mean I am always wrong - ditto for the others here.

I am glad that you recognize peer reviewed science when you see it, do you also recognize the flaws in a peer reviewed system?

I try my best to not speak down to anyone. I may fail from time to time, but many people mistake dissenting opinions or commentary for speaking down to them. I do not view you as any better or worse than I am, therefore, I do not have a position to speak down from.

Now, that is simply trying to get a rise out of me, or play on emotions. I prefer to not do that, I prefer to stick to the issues or the actual information we have at hand - which in this case, is unconfirmed statements, from unverifiable sources (at least from our POV). Things may have happened exactly as the unnamed sources state, but I am not willing to just accept an unconfirmed/unverifiable information as proof.
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Old Jul 4, 2017, 10:25 am
  #32  
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For the record, I think you should acknowledge that your interpretation of the rules on medical nitro is just your personal view.

It's slightly misleading for visitors to the forum to read your words and think you are speaking as the voice of TSA on this issue. Perhaps you could add a disclaimer tag. When you post anything to do with rules, it is only 'binding' when you, personally, are working a checkpoint at GSO. Anywhere else, it's anyone's guess what the rules will be.

You claim you, personally, wouldn't confiscate medical nitro. In fairness to lurkers and drop-ins to the site, you might acknowledge that other screeners are equally entitled to their own opinions and if they do not agree with you, their 'final say' is binding at the checkpoint, just as yours is. From their perspective, you are the one who is wrong.

Your posts mislead innocent travelers like myself into believing that TSA would never confiscate an easy-to-clear vital medication. That is not true. Any TSO can confiscate any medicine at any time and he will have the 'final say'. Suggesting otherwise is potentially putting people like myself at grave medical risk.

With all due respect, you're blathering about unverifiable sources. Unless you personally spoke to the offensive ex-military TSOs in PHX, or read transcripts of interviews and viewed all available camera footage, not just what was shown to the public, or spoke personally to the vets involved or read transcripts of their testimony, you are also relying on unconfirmed (by you) information based on unconfirmed (by you) sources.

There's always a reasonable (to you) explanation that will exonerate TSA.

Last edited by chollie; Jul 4, 2017 at 12:46 pm
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Old Jul 4, 2017, 10:40 am
  #33  
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Originally Posted by gsoltso
I am glad we are pals, it is nice to find a new one!

I am sorry you consider me voicing facts, and reiterating published information as drivel, I am sorry that you are frustrated because I ask for proof, not conjecture or personal opinions on these types of incidents. I would hope that all of you would request proof of things, and be willing to not accept a blog post or anonymous article or some other social media post as fact, without some form of proof. I sometimes give opinions on what I see - sometimes they are wrong (as I am willing to change my mind when new information becomes available), sometimes they are right. If you have sources that can produce proof to back up what these unnamed sources are stating, I would love to see them - again, not saying that this did not happen, merely that unnamed/anonymous sources are notoriously one sided (their own most of the time), and by definition, unverifiable to outside elements (like us). When a TSO follows proper procedure and you disagree with the procedure, it does not mean that the TSO is in the wrong. The larger discussion to have, is your disagreement with the actual policy, not the individual.


Like some others here, I have plenty of experience in National Security, Homeland Defense, application of Real Time Threat Assessments and Intel, among other things. That experience doesn't mean I am always right on things, nor does it mean I am always wrong - ditto for the others here.

I am glad that you recognize peer reviewed science when you see it, do you also recognize the flaws in a peer reviewed system?

I try my best to not speak down to anyone. I may fail from time to time, but many people mistake dissenting opinions or commentary for speaking down to them. I do not view you as any better or worse than I am, therefore, I do not have a position to speak down from.

Now, that is simply trying to get a rise out of me, or play on emotions. I prefer to not do that, I prefer to stick to the issues or the actual information we have at hand - which in this case, is unconfirmed statements, from unverifiable sources (at least from our POV). Things may have happened exactly as the unnamed sources state, but I am not willing to just accept an unconfirmed/unverifiable information as proof.
Can we get some verifiable proof of the things you post? Verifiable facts seem to be a foreign concept at TSA.
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Old Jul 4, 2017, 3:03 pm
  #34  
 
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Originally Posted by gsoltso
This is the kind of thing that happens when you have un-nameable sources, and no specific verification that you can publish, or a writer that chooses to embellish, or a writer that simply got things wrong. TSA does not go into bags looking for drugs, although we do report them if they are discovered while searching for possible threat items.

I am not saying this story is untrue, but I am still leery over unidentified sources. We have had tons of articles across the board where false stories are pushed out by anonymous/un-named/unidentified/unverified/unverifiable sources. Little things like a posting stating unequivocally that searching for drugs is a part of the testing, does nothing but lessen the credibility of the story, the writer, and the sources - especially when a little bit of research into the area (like checking the TSAs website), would remove the most glaring errors.
Hahahaha, we have SEEN the TSA clerks at the checkpoint, remember? We KNOW what they do, we have talked to them and heard them yelling. We have seen pictures posted by the TSA, showing a clerk mishandling a passenger's expensive and perishable property, and BOASTING about the fact that large lobsters can sometimes be found in New England.

We have SEEN the TSA blog's posting about the false arrest of a PX at PHL, and how studiously the TSA blog team avoided mentioning that the PX had been acquitted and had sued the TSA.

The TSA teaches clerks that they are on the "front lines" in the fight against terrorism, and we have seen and experienced their failure to know or follow the rules, and their resentment at being asked to follow the rules. If you have any information to rebut the claims in the article, trot it out.

Originally Posted by Boggie Dog
So if TSA just closed up shop and went home we would only be 5% less safe and would save $8,000,000,000.00 tax dollars each year. Think I'm willing to take the chance.
We would be much much safer because passengers would spread out through the terminal rather than being bunched at the checkpoint.

Last edited by Carl Johnson; Jul 4, 2017 at 3:08 pm
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Old Jul 6, 2017, 5:48 am
  #35  
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This story has now made its way to Drudge and links to here:

http://www.fox21online.com/2017/07/0...s-sources-say/

While the sources remain unnamed the amount of detail gives credibility to the story. TSA refused to confirm or deny the report.

And I say again, the ball is in TSA's court to prove the story is false. A great opportunity for TSA to reach out and clear the air. I think the problem is that TSA can't refute this report.
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Old Jul 6, 2017, 6:16 am
  #36  
 
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Originally Posted by gsoltso
I am not commenting on the story as far as TSA response, however, the not searching for drugs has been published consistently at the Blog, and other social media sites, it has also been a part of the response for medical marijuana on the "Can I Bring" tool. The agency has not lacked for communicating that particular message.
On June 28, a post refuting reports of book screening was made on the TSA blog. Why can TSA not make a similar post stating something to the effect of "recent news reports referenced testing to search for drugs at a checkpoint, this is false, TSA does not search for drugs, etc."?
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Old Jul 6, 2017, 7:02 am
  #37  
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Hopefull, the results of any testing at DEN will be made public. LOTS of complaints are emanating out of there about abuse of passengers and general attitude of TSA staff there. Here's one from Amy Van Dyken-Rouen:

Someone needs to give some nice pills to @DENAirport @TSA they are almost ALWAYS (and, yes almost all of them) in foul moods. #Smile
A refresher as to who Ms. Dyken-Rouen's history with TSA:

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...nation-airport

Last edited by petaluma1; Jul 6, 2017 at 8:30 am
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Old Jul 6, 2017, 7:46 am
  #38  
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Originally Posted by petaluma1
Hopefull, the results of any testing at DEN will be made public. LOTS of complaints are emanating out of there about abuse of passengers and general attitude of TSA staff there. Here's one from Amy Van Dyken-Rouen:



As a refresher as to who Ms. Dyken-Rouen's history with TSA:

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...nation-airport
The video at the link talks about TSA screeners getting a refresher course in how to treat people with disabilities. Guess that additional training didn't take.
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Old Jul 6, 2017, 8:47 am
  #39  
 
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Originally Posted by Maxwell Smart
On June 28, a post refuting reports of book screening was made on the TSA blog. Why can TSA not make a similar post stating something to the effect of "recent news reports referenced testing to search for drugs at a checkpoint, this is false, TSA does not search for drugs, etc."?
The organization has made a point of not publishing covert/overt testing procedures or results, I do not anticipate that to change moving forward. They do not disclose what they test for, what they use, who they use (with the exception of nebulous titles - "Red team", etc), how they conduct them or what they are actually testing. I hope that they continue in this vein, simply because the information can be used for nefarious purposes. If we publish the methods or similar information, someone can learn how to game the system, ditto with locations, testers, items, equipment, etc.

Now, a refutation (or confirmation for that matter) may come from another source, but I do not anticipate TSA to come out and state that these test results are accurate or not accurate, I expect them to continue with the "neither confirm nor deny", because that is what they are supposed to do.

As to the drugs search, they have posted it tons of times, I do not expect them to post specifically on this report... because, well, we have posted the contrary opinion tons of times.
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Old Jul 6, 2017, 9:05 am
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Boggie Dog
The video at the link talks about TSA screeners getting a refresher course in how to treat people with disabilities. Guess that additional training didn't take.
A taxpayer-funded refresher course for a workforce that has undergone two weeks of 'academy' training within the last year? For people who have been on the job for years, so they've already had initial training PLUS the boondoggle paid vacay at the 'academy'?

And I'm really supposed to pony up taxpayer dollars to fund retraining for people who have been on the job for years?

Here's a suggestion: next time 're-training' is required, take the cost of both the training and the lost work time out of the TSOs paycheck.
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Old Jul 6, 2017, 9:20 am
  #41  
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Let's not forget that TSA at MSP totally reconfigured its security checkpoints at MSP a bit over a year ago. That was expensive and, more importantly for travelers, resulted in hour long and longer waits for PreCheck, with the other lines being far worse. The convenient SkyPriority PreCheck lane was eliminated in the process, which also caused large buildups of people in the areas waiting for screening like sitting ducks.
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Old Jul 6, 2017, 10:24 am
  #42  
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Originally Posted by gsoltso
The organization has made a point of not publishing covert/overt testing procedures or results, I do not anticipate that to change moving forward. They do not disclose what they test for, what they use, who they use (with the exception of nebulous titles - "Red team", etc), how they conduct them or what they are actually testing. I hope that they continue in this vein, simply because the information can be used for nefarious purposes. If we publish the methods or similar information, someone can learn how to game the system, ditto with locations, testers, items, equipment, etc.

Now, a refutation (or confirmation for that matter) may come from another source, but I do not anticipate TSA to come out and state that these test results are accurate or not accurate, I expect them to continue with the "neither confirm nor deny", because that is what they are supposed to do.

As to the drugs search, they have posted it tons of times, I do not expect them to post specifically on this report... because, well, we have posted the contrary opinion tons of times.
You posted recently chastising people here for not getting facts before trusting a story in the media that was negative towards TSA.

So give us the facts that refutes that story!
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Old Jul 6, 2017, 11:21 am
  #43  
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This has nothing to do with accidentally cluing the public in to SSI techniques. This has everything to do with TSA deliberately putting the public at risk to hide on-going performance failures and to protect unearned outsize bonuses for the work force.


As taxpayers, we have a right to know how well (or not) our government agencies are performing. More importantly, we should not be hearing about failing test scores being rewarded with $80K bonuses that themselves violated TSA's documented policies.

I'm saddened and disgusted to know that so many TSA employees, from top to bottom, think their annual bonus is more important than the public's safety, even when it means sometimes putting their own loved ones at risk.
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Old Jul 6, 2017, 11:33 am
  #44  
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Originally Posted by chollie
This has nothing to do with accidentally cluing the public in to SSI techniques. This has everything to do with TSA deliberately putting the public at risk to hide on-going performance failures and to protect unearned outsize bonuses for the work force.


As taxpayers, we have a right to know how well (or not) our government agencies are performing. More importantly, we should not be hearing about failing test scores being rewarded with $80K bonuses that themselves violated TSA's documented policies.

I'm saddened and disgusted to know that so many TSA employees, from top to bottom, think their annual bonus is more important than the public's safety, even when it means sometimes putting their own loved ones at risk.
I agree that the public should have available information that shows how all agencies perform. TSA is not an exception.

As far as bonuses go I just do not understand how or why government workers are eligible for a bonus. Ask the skipper of a $36 billion dollar aircraft carrier how much bonus they received and you'll be laughed at.

I would be willing to bet that a contract screener who missed 95% of target items wouldn't be a screener for very long. Why should TSA screeners be any different?
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Old Jul 10, 2017, 7:20 am
  #45  
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I have seen reports over the last couple of days stating that the screeners at MSP missed 17 out of 19 easily identifiable targets. Unless my math is bad that would only be a miss rate of 89%. Of course these are unconfirmed reports so can't be taken at face value.

edit to add:

Clarification: Screeners reportedly missed 17 out of 18 target items. That's 94% by my count.

https://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/0...y-check-tests/

However, Red Team reported to Fox affiliate KQDS that 17 out of 18 times, the team was able to sneak past the contraband items without any trouble. The team said they had to stop the tests when the failure rate reached 95 percent, though they did not explain why.

Red Team handed this report to KQDS the day before the July 4 weekend. Some 3.5 million passengers were expected to fly out of MSP that weekend.
Must be some sour TSA apples on the Red Team.

Last edited by Boggie Dog; Jul 10, 2017 at 8:51 am Reason: clarification
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