catocony

The US was never at war with North Korea. South Korea is technically at war with the North. From a US perspective, it's still a police action.

The main point here is, at least for Americans, many feel that the US Constitution follows them everywhere. That all of the rights we have here are rights everywhere we go. You clearly wouldn't throw someone in jail for stealing a poster in the US. In North Korea, they will. Totalitarian regimes are called that for a reason. Why anyone would want to go to North Korea is beyond me, but if someone chooses to go there, they better learn the rules of the road before they go.

What happened to this kid is horrible, but he put himself in a position to be harmed. As Tom Coughlin said about Plaxico Burress after he accidently shot himself at a nightclub, "if you feel you need to carry a gun for protection in a club, you shouldn't go to that club"

WilcoRoger

"Police action" were the initial words of Truman. While the UN Command in name is "UN" , S/RES/84 specifically included "that all Members providing military forces... make such forces... available to a unified command under the United States of America" etc. Interesting read http://undocs.org/S/RES/85(1950)

Totally agree with you. Many Americans really do not grasp that once they cross the border, it's the foreign laws that apply first and foremost.

OTOH totalitarianism has nothing to do with the (percieved) harshness of sentences. If it was, the US would seem a rather totalitarian place from many parts of the globe.

Again, agree.

TWA884

Folks,

We realize that there is a fine line which separates checkpoints and border policy debate from political discussion and commentary. Discussion of governmental affairs of the United States or any other country which is not directly related to travel safety and security or border policy belongs in OMNI/PR.

Arguing the history of the Korean war and whether totalitarianism has anything to do with the harshness of Otto Warmbier's sentence crosses the line into OMNI territory.

Future off topic messages will be summarily deleted. Repeat offenders will be subject to discipline.

Thank you for understanding,

TWA884
Travel Safety/Security co-moderator

artemis

"Arrogantly ignorant" perfectly describes a significant percentage of young people (and not just Americans). They just don't know what they don't know, and they lack the life experience to truly appreciate that yes, bad things CAN indeed happen to them, and that not every country is Just Like Home, only with superficially different quaint customs. (In particular, having grown up after the Cold War ended, they're too young to remember Stalinist show trials; they assume even a totalitarian government's legal system must be based on rule of law and concerned primarily with justice.) And they are cynical about travel warnings, believing them to be just politically motivated.

Unfortunately companies like Young Pioneer Tours are selling their tours by using a marketing message that's perfectly pitched to appeal to less mature young people ("'providing budget travel to destinations your mother would rather you stayed away from" - really?) and they deliberately downplay the danger of their travel destinations. That's a problem - especially when it comes to countries like North Korea, where it doesn't take much to trigger a dangerous international incident.

I think the idea of altering US passports is a bad one, but I do think we need to find a way to get the message across to adventurous-but-naive young people that the US government isn't obligated to help anyone who goes to a place like North Korea and gets into serious trouble.

Boggie Dog

Think you are pretty much dead on. The U.S. has no diplomatic relations with NK so what could government do to intervene in such a situation? No much so people are on the own.

I really have no issue with government restricting trade/travel to countries such as NK. However, such a determination should only be made after all attempts of cooperation have failed. Should a person defy governments advice to avoid travel to such areas then too bad, they're on their own. No effort or funds should be expended to intervene.

WilcoRoger

I think Mr Warmbier's case sent a quite strong message

artemis

It certainly has for now. But how long will that message be remembered? And how far are these "extreme adventure" travel companies that pitch their ads at naive youths prepared to go? What's next, the Great Aleppo Pub Crawl?

I guess there are limits to how much we can protect foolish young people from themselves, but incidents like Mr. Warmbier's still make me sad. Such an avoidable tragedy!

chollie

There are generally two ways to get tripped up abroad.

1) You inadvertently do something that is perfectly acceptable at home but that causes grave offense or is even illegal in other places - showing too much skin in a conservative country or spitting in public or making a disrespectful remark about the country's leader, for example.

2) You do something that you would not do at home because it is offensive or illegal in the US. Attempting to enter an off-limits area in a hotel and attempting to steal a framed poster are things that presumably Warmbier would not have tried at a US hotel.

artemis

I'd add a third way to that list: visiting the wrong place at the wrong time. For instance, visiting a country that's tottering on the brink of a civil war. You can't always predict this one, but sometimes you can see trouble coming early enough to avoid walking right into it.

(This is the primary reason I won't visit Iran right now, even though I'd love to see Persepolis some day. The US and Iran have no formal diplomatic relations, and the US-Iranian relationship is chilly at the best of times, and can worsen quickly with little notice. I'm not willing to take the very small but real chance of inadvertently ending up as a political pawn, or on the wrong side of shooting war.)

chollie

Very good point.

I would include in that: you do not need pictures and video clips of demonstrations and protests. If you see one developing, go the other way.

I agree about Iran. I've probably missed the chance to see Syria - even if it becomes safe again, the damage is horrific. I would love to go to Iran and I know people who have gone, but with an American passport, I might end up being a political pawn. Odds are probably very small, but the list of places I want to visit is very long, so I won't take the risk.

WilcoRoger

I think you guys are over-careful about Iran, but better safe than sorry especially with a US passport.

I had interaction with the police there (inadvertently photographing "wrong" places/people) which turned out surprisingly well and ended in highfiveing with the cops - not sure what the outcome would have been if I had a US pp.

Basically travellers should understand and accept that a foreign passport (even a US one) is not the ultimate get out of jail card (pun intended) and the Navy won't sail up the foreign capital's river to free you.

Yes, it helps sometimes/somewhere, yes you usually get more leeway from the locals & authorities but that's not granted.

OccasionalFlyerPerson

For people who have dual Iranian/US (or UK etc.) citizenship, the dangers appear to be higher.

I plan to go to Iran next year. But, I will do so on my NZ passport, not my UK one.

artemis

I think you're absolutely right on both counts. The risk is extremely small, but why take it?

The other thing that has influenced my thinking on this is the fact that we even know who Otto Warmbier is. If he'd ignored the US State Department travel warning for Honduras and had gone there for an "exciting trip" and had been killed in an armed robbery, none of us would have even heard of him. Why? Because, sad as that death would have been, it wouldn't have triggered a major diplomatic incident between the United States and the government of Honduras.

Those hikers who went tramping around on the Iran-Iraq border and were arrested by Iran and charged with being spies, Otto Warmbier's detention in North Korea - these incidents didn't affect only themselves. They affected relationships between governments that are already on bad terms, and that's doubly dangerous.

I have the right to risk my personal safety. I do not have the right to risk the safety of my fellow citizens as well. I'll stick with visiting places where my screwups don't risk triggering a war.

OccasionalFlyerPerson

Here are some people 'pranking' their North Korean military guide.

What japes!!! (That is sarcasm.)

GUWonder

State getting ready to have this geographical travel restriction in place on US passports just after 30 days of notice in the Federal Register is completed. North Korea will be the only such country with such such US restriction, but I would be surprised if this kind of thing wasn't attempted again with other countries too.