Electronic devices ban Europe to the US [merged threads]
#721
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 17,254
But I like having fun too.
#722
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: SW WA
Posts: 3,876
To jump back in to the conversation and to again answer some of the questions that were asked above as well as to provide some additional commentary.
Someone mentioned up thread about why Russia hasn’t been targeted since they have a large number of extremists in their country. My guess is that the western governments don’t see them as a big threat to the west because they are more likely to target Russian interests as opposed to Western interests. Not to say that could be used as a base to attack Western interests. But by the end of this exercise, they will be in the restrictions as well anyway.
One question that was asked was why are battery devices being targeted and the issues with detecting explosives in them. From my understanding what the bad guys have figured out what to do is replace some of the cells of the battery with the explosive material. They also figured out how to make the explosive material look like a normal cell in the battery. They have acquired or have access to, from what I understand, airport quality x-ray scanners and are using this to compare their modifications with an unmodified baseline. The authorities believe that they have gotten this to the point where it is extremely difficult to identify the modification via x-ray. Because the bad guys have to only replace a part of the battery cells, the device can still fully operate as intended, thus defeating the power on and show it works prior test. The explosives can still be detected by trace explosive techniques and via the higher powered CT type devices. This is why the particular devices have been targeted.
We are starting to hear and read comments from other countries about the potential for a ban on these devices. This confirms what I have been hearing that we are on the verge of a worldwide set of restrictions on these type of devices on board aircraft. I think we will hear something later this week via a joint EU/US announcement of the restrictions. ICAO will likely publish a similar recommendation around the same time, after which it will be adopted by most if not all countries, either by regulation or default. Since the restrictions will be worldwide, trying some circuitous routing won’t really matter.
It does look like the rules will be fairly draconian. It will severely limit the number of devices that a person can bring with them. The burden on security checkpoints is going to be very high. The rules are likely going to require swabbing of all electronic devices. It seems there will be no limit on “micro” electronic devices, e.g. hearing aids, watches, and devices of that size. There will be a limit on large electronic devices, e.g. laptops, cameras, and the like. This number will likely be limited to one per passenger. The two open questions that I have heard are how are they going to classify devices such as ipad mini’s and small e-readers. The big ones of these fall into the laptop category. There is debate on these hybrid sized devices. The likely place is that they will fall with the laptops, but it is possible they will fall with the phone restrictions. It looks like the phone restriction will be no more than two phone sized devices.
It further looks like that there will be a ban on these items in the hold as well. As I have mentioned previously, the EU is close to banning these items from the hold, if the cabin restrictions are implemented. Further, I have heard from several pilots who have basically have said they won’t fly the planes if the hold is full of batteries like this. One of them mentioned that many planes don’t have a way to fully keep these devices from bouncing around in the hold, and that he believes that the bouncing in the hold is more likely to cause the device to experience thermal runaway. Currently there is no system that can put out one of these fires in the hold.
The restrictions will be applied to medical devices as well. The ADA has a carve out for what is considered “direct threats”. That is in section 12111, and would apply to aircraft security regulations promulgated by the government. Specifically, “The term “direct threat” means a significant risk to the health or safety of others that cannot be eliminated by reasonable accommodation.” The regulations limiting electronics would be based on the “significant risk” side of things. This would be similar to how in the initial days of the liquid ban, prescription drugs and such had to be checked as well. The regulation will list what devices are permitted, and medical devices will likely be permitted devices. However, the limitation on the number of devices will apply. So the person with the medical device will likely have to decide between the medical device and the laptop. The limitation on the number of devices is based on the ability to do the screening of the devices needed for them to be cleared. Each extra device will add more time to the screening process and increase the waiting times.
I do think that we will have somewhere between 5 and 30 days before the rules come to effect. I think into the US will come sooner, and then the roll-out to the US checkpoints will come towards the later end of this. The only reason for the delay on the domestic side may be related to the ability to screen these items in some relatively fast manner.
Someone mentioned up thread about why Russia hasn’t been targeted since they have a large number of extremists in their country. My guess is that the western governments don’t see them as a big threat to the west because they are more likely to target Russian interests as opposed to Western interests. Not to say that could be used as a base to attack Western interests. But by the end of this exercise, they will be in the restrictions as well anyway.
One question that was asked was why are battery devices being targeted and the issues with detecting explosives in them. From my understanding what the bad guys have figured out what to do is replace some of the cells of the battery with the explosive material. They also figured out how to make the explosive material look like a normal cell in the battery. They have acquired or have access to, from what I understand, airport quality x-ray scanners and are using this to compare their modifications with an unmodified baseline. The authorities believe that they have gotten this to the point where it is extremely difficult to identify the modification via x-ray. Because the bad guys have to only replace a part of the battery cells, the device can still fully operate as intended, thus defeating the power on and show it works prior test. The explosives can still be detected by trace explosive techniques and via the higher powered CT type devices. This is why the particular devices have been targeted.
We are starting to hear and read comments from other countries about the potential for a ban on these devices. This confirms what I have been hearing that we are on the verge of a worldwide set of restrictions on these type of devices on board aircraft. I think we will hear something later this week via a joint EU/US announcement of the restrictions. ICAO will likely publish a similar recommendation around the same time, after which it will be adopted by most if not all countries, either by regulation or default. Since the restrictions will be worldwide, trying some circuitous routing won’t really matter.
It does look like the rules will be fairly draconian. It will severely limit the number of devices that a person can bring with them. The burden on security checkpoints is going to be very high. The rules are likely going to require swabbing of all electronic devices. It seems there will be no limit on “micro” electronic devices, e.g. hearing aids, watches, and devices of that size. There will be a limit on large electronic devices, e.g. laptops, cameras, and the like. This number will likely be limited to one per passenger. The two open questions that I have heard are how are they going to classify devices such as ipad mini’s and small e-readers. The big ones of these fall into the laptop category. There is debate on these hybrid sized devices. The likely place is that they will fall with the laptops, but it is possible they will fall with the phone restrictions. It looks like the phone restriction will be no more than two phone sized devices.
It further looks like that there will be a ban on these items in the hold as well. As I have mentioned previously, the EU is close to banning these items from the hold, if the cabin restrictions are implemented. Further, I have heard from several pilots who have basically have said they won’t fly the planes if the hold is full of batteries like this. One of them mentioned that many planes don’t have a way to fully keep these devices from bouncing around in the hold, and that he believes that the bouncing in the hold is more likely to cause the device to experience thermal runaway. Currently there is no system that can put out one of these fires in the hold.
The restrictions will be applied to medical devices as well. The ADA has a carve out for what is considered “direct threats”. That is in section 12111, and would apply to aircraft security regulations promulgated by the government. Specifically, “The term “direct threat” means a significant risk to the health or safety of others that cannot be eliminated by reasonable accommodation.” The regulations limiting electronics would be based on the “significant risk” side of things. This would be similar to how in the initial days of the liquid ban, prescription drugs and such had to be checked as well. The regulation will list what devices are permitted, and medical devices will likely be permitted devices. However, the limitation on the number of devices will apply. So the person with the medical device will likely have to decide between the medical device and the laptop. The limitation on the number of devices is based on the ability to do the screening of the devices needed for them to be cleared. Each extra device will add more time to the screening process and increase the waiting times.
I do think that we will have somewhere between 5 and 30 days before the rules come to effect. I think into the US will come sooner, and then the roll-out to the US checkpoints will come towards the later end of this. The only reason for the delay on the domestic side may be related to the ability to screen these items in some relatively fast manner.
#724
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Kansas City, MO
Programs: AA Gold
Posts: 3,643
Is the convention wisdom that if this ban does go into effect that this will be permanent? Is this going to be the new normal? The original ban on electronics from the 8 ME and African cities was supposed to be temporary, wasn't it?
I'm not flying overseas until October, to Europe for a vacation. My biggest concern is with a camera, having to check them in and expect to get it back in one piece. If this does go into effect I hope it is only for the summer.
I'm not flying overseas until October, to Europe for a vacation. My biggest concern is with a camera, having to check them in and expect to get it back in one piece. If this does go into effect I hope it is only for the summer.
#725
Suspended
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Bay Area
Programs: DL SM, UA MP.
Posts: 12,729
So instead of trying to improve detection measures for these disguised bombs, they're just simply going to ban them all categorically.
Well maybe the incremental losses to airline travel and tourism won't enough to drag down the global economy.
Well maybe the incremental losses to airline travel and tourism won't enough to drag down the global economy.
#726
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Pacific Northwest
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My iPad just alerted me to a Bloomberg news story that Apple is planning to announce three new laptops in June. Why bother?
I don't regularly have to travel for work, and I can cut that back to zero if needed.
I need to travel by plane to visit family, but that is a couple trips a year.
All my other air travel is discretionary. There are plenty of interesting sites I can drive to to keep me occupied for the next few years. If the dire predictions of some here regarding the restrictions become reality, watch the global travel and major segments of the tourism industry go down the drain.
#727
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: SNA, LAX
Posts: 418
My travel laptop and charger weigh less than 3 pounds.
#728
Join Date: May 2009
Location: South Park, CO
Programs: Tegridy Elite
Posts: 5,678
Is the convention wisdom that if this ban does go into effect that this will be permanent? Is this going to be the new normal? The original ban on electronics from the 8 ME and African cities was supposed to be temporary, wasn't it?
I'm not flying overseas until October, to Europe for a vacation. My biggest concern is with a camera, having to check them in and expect to get it back in one piece. If this does go into effect I hope it is only for the summer.
I'm not flying overseas until October, to Europe for a vacation. My biggest concern is with a camera, having to check them in and expect to get it back in one piece. If this does go into effect I hope it is only for the summer.
Depending on the value of your camera gear, consider specialized camera insurance. It's not all that expensive and can provide better coverage for potential incidents than general travel insurance. It may also be worth considering a Pelican case or similar if your equipment is expensive enough to make that worthwhile. But you have time before you'd need to make any decision with an October trip.
That is our biggest concern as my wife has a fairly pricey camera and related gear (don't ask me what - I leave all that to her!) and while she has insurance on it, it's always been in carry-on luggage so we may need to have a more robust case if it ends up having to be checked.
#729
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 616
I'm starting to dread what is going to come out of this, especially if they limit medical devices. I carry my Omnipod remote, a CGM remote, and a glucose meter. Then each Omnipod "Pod" is probably going to be considered an electronic device since it has a battery. Since those pods are changed every 2-3 days, I have to carry multiples of them. I carry extra pods in case there is a problem with one. For a week long trip, I could be at several medical devices, depending on how they count them. I may have to switch back to syringes for my trip to England this summer and that is just not acceptable.
#730
Suspended
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Bay Area
Programs: DL SM, UA MP.
Posts: 12,729
The security complex rarely seems to scale back even with those things that are initially promised to be "temporary until we find a better method", etc.
Depending on the value of your camera gear, consider specialized camera insurance. It's not all that expensive and can provide better coverage for potential incidents than general travel insurance. It may also be worth considering a Pelican case or similar if your equipment is expensive enough to make that worthwhile. But you have time before you'd need to make any decision with an October trip.
That is our biggest concern as my wife has a fairly pricey camera and related gear (don't ask me what - I leave all that to her!) and while she has insurance on it, it's always been in carry-on luggage so we may need to have a more robust case if it ends up having to be checked.
Depending on the value of your camera gear, consider specialized camera insurance. It's not all that expensive and can provide better coverage for potential incidents than general travel insurance. It may also be worth considering a Pelican case or similar if your equipment is expensive enough to make that worthwhile. But you have time before you'd need to make any decision with an October trip.
That is our biggest concern as my wife has a fairly pricey camera and related gear (don't ask me what - I leave all that to her!) and while she has insurance on it, it's always been in carry-on luggage so we may need to have a more robust case if it ends up having to be checked.
#731
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: 4me
Posts: 11,953
Somewhat related to this thread:
THE WALL STREET JOURNAL News Alert
THE WALL STREET JOURNAL News Alert
Israel Provided Intelligence That Trump Shared With Russia, Officials Say
The classified information that President Donald Trump shared last week with Russian officials was provided to the U.S. by Israel, according to officials with direct knowledge of the matter.
The intelligence came from a particularly valuable source of information about the Islamic State terrorist group's ability to build sophisticated explosives that could evade aviation-security measures and be placed on aircraft, these officials said. The source of the information was developed before Mr. Trump's election in November, they said.
The classified information that President Donald Trump shared last week with Russian officials was provided to the U.S. by Israel, according to officials with direct knowledge of the matter.
The intelligence came from a particularly valuable source of information about the Islamic State terrorist group's ability to build sophisticated explosives that could evade aviation-security measures and be placed on aircraft, these officials said. The source of the information was developed before Mr. Trump's election in November, they said.
#732
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,526
MSY-MSP wrote:
What happens when the laptop is needed to communicate with the medical device (I'm thinking pacemaker) to report on the functioning of said medical device?
So the person with the medical device will likely have to decide between the medical device and the laptop.
Last edited by petaluma1; May 16, 2017 at 3:48 pm
#733
Join Date: Jan 2014
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Posts: 3,134
I'm starting to dread what is going to come out of this, especially if they limit medical devices. I carry my Omnipod remote, a CGM remote, and a glucose meter. Then each Omnipod "Pod" is probably going to be considered an electronic device since it has a battery. Since those pods are changed every 2-3 days, I have to carry multiples of them. I carry extra pods in case there is a problem with one. For a week long trip, I could be at several medical devices, depending on how they count them. I may have to switch back to syringes for my trip to England this summer and that is just not acceptable.
#734
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,691
It does look like the rules will be fairly draconian. It will severely limit the number of devices that a person can bring with them. The burden on security checkpoints is going to be very high. The rules are likely going to require swabbing of all electronic devices. It seems there will be no limit on micro electronic devices, e.g. hearing aids, watches, and devices of that size. There will be a limit on large electronic devices, e.g. laptops, cameras, and the like. This number will likely be limited to one per passenger. The two open questions that I have heard are how are they going to classify devices such as ipad minis and small e-readers. The big ones of these fall into the laptop category. There is debate on these hybrid sized devices. The likely place is that they will fall with the laptops, but it is possible they will fall with the phone restrictions. It looks like the phone restriction will be no more than two phone sized devices.
It further looks like that there will be a ban on these items in the hold as well. As I have mentioned previously, the EU is close to banning these items from the hold, if the cabin restrictions are implemented.
It further looks like that there will be a ban on these items in the hold as well. As I have mentioned previously, the EU is close to banning these items from the hold, if the cabin restrictions are implemented.
#735
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: SNA, LAX
Posts: 418