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Electronic devices ban Europe to the US [merged threads]

Electronic devices ban Europe to the US [merged threads]

Old May 16, 2017, 2:21 pm
  #721  
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Originally Posted by Fredrik74
It's my take too but I will admit it's guesswork. I will change opinion if there's a reason for that though.

I won't believe any claims of a security threat unless it affects US domestic flights too.
Clearly guesswork. Per my first paragraph.
But I like having fun too.
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Old May 16, 2017, 2:27 pm
  #722  
 
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Originally Posted by MSY-MSP
To jump back in to the conversation and to again answer some of the questions that were asked above as well as to provide some additional commentary.

Someone mentioned up thread about why Russia hasn’t been targeted since they have a large number of extremists in their country. My guess is that the western governments don’t see them as a big threat to the west because they are more likely to target Russian interests as opposed to Western interests. Not to say that could be used as a base to attack Western interests. But by the end of this exercise, they will be in the restrictions as well anyway.

One question that was asked was why are battery devices being targeted and the issues with detecting explosives in them. From my understanding what the bad guys have figured out what to do is replace some of the cells of the battery with the explosive material. They also figured out how to make the explosive material look like a normal cell in the battery. They have acquired or have access to, from what I understand, airport quality x-ray scanners and are using this to compare their modifications with an unmodified baseline. The authorities believe that they have gotten this to the point where it is extremely difficult to identify the modification via x-ray. Because the bad guys have to only replace a part of the battery cells, the device can still fully operate as intended, thus defeating the power on and show it works prior test. The explosives can still be detected by trace explosive techniques and via the higher powered CT type devices. This is why the particular devices have been targeted.

We are starting to hear and read comments from other countries about the potential for a ban on these devices. This confirms what I have been hearing that we are on the verge of a worldwide set of restrictions on these type of devices on board aircraft. I think we will hear something later this week via a joint EU/US announcement of the restrictions. ICAO will likely publish a similar recommendation around the same time, after which it will be adopted by most if not all countries, either by regulation or default. Since the restrictions will be worldwide, trying some circuitous routing won’t really matter.

It does look like the rules will be fairly draconian. It will severely limit the number of devices that a person can bring with them. The burden on security checkpoints is going to be very high. The rules are likely going to require swabbing of all electronic devices. It seems there will be no limit on “micro” electronic devices, e.g. hearing aids, watches, and devices of that size. There will be a limit on large electronic devices, e.g. laptops, cameras, and the like. This number will likely be limited to one per passenger. The two open questions that I have heard are how are they going to classify devices such as ipad mini’s and small e-readers. The big ones of these fall into the laptop category. There is debate on these hybrid sized devices. The likely place is that they will fall with the laptops, but it is possible they will fall with the phone restrictions. It looks like the phone restriction will be no more than two phone sized devices.

It further looks like that there will be a ban on these items in the hold as well. As I have mentioned previously, the EU is close to banning these items from the hold, if the cabin restrictions are implemented. Further, I have heard from several pilots who have basically have said they won’t fly the planes if the hold is full of batteries like this. One of them mentioned that many planes don’t have a way to fully keep these devices from bouncing around in the hold, and that he believes that the bouncing in the hold is more likely to cause the device to experience thermal runaway. Currently there is no system that can put out one of these fires in the hold.

The restrictions will be applied to medical devices as well. The ADA has a carve out for what is considered “direct threats”. That is in section 12111, and would apply to aircraft security regulations promulgated by the government. Specifically, “The term “direct threat” means a significant risk to the health or safety of others that cannot be eliminated by reasonable accommodation.” The regulations limiting electronics would be based on the “significant risk” side of things. This would be similar to how in the initial days of the liquid ban, prescription drugs and such had to be checked as well. The regulation will list what devices are permitted, and medical devices will likely be permitted devices. However, the limitation on the number of devices will apply. So the person with the medical device will likely have to decide between the medical device and the laptop. The limitation on the number of devices is based on the ability to do the screening of the devices needed for them to be cleared. Each extra device will add more time to the screening process and increase the waiting times.

I do think that we will have somewhere between 5 and 30 days before the rules come to effect. I think into the US will come sooner, and then the roll-out to the US checkpoints will come towards the later end of this. The only reason for the delay on the domestic side may be related to the ability to screen these items in some relatively fast manner.
If this is true, I'm pretty much done flying. My ability to travel for either work or pleasure is contingent on me having multiple devices so that I can always be available for work. I can't imagine that I'm the only one in that boat.
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Old May 16, 2017, 2:31 pm
  #723  
 
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It will be difficult...
work computer
personal computer
ipad mini
only 1 phone, tho, unlike MANY of my coworkers...
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Old May 16, 2017, 2:41 pm
  #724  
 
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Is the convention wisdom that if this ban does go into effect that this will be permanent? Is this going to be the new normal? The original ban on electronics from the 8 ME and African cities was supposed to be temporary, wasn't it?

I'm not flying overseas until October, to Europe for a vacation. My biggest concern is with a camera, having to check them in and expect to get it back in one piece. If this does go into effect I hope it is only for the summer.
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Old May 16, 2017, 2:43 pm
  #725  
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So instead of trying to improve detection measures for these disguised bombs, they're just simply going to ban them all categorically.

Well maybe the incremental losses to airline travel and tourism won't enough to drag down the global economy.
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Old May 16, 2017, 2:45 pm
  #726  
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Originally Posted by Buster
If this is true, I'm pretty much done flying. My ability to travel for either work or pleasure is contingent on me having multiple devices so that I can always be available for work. I can't imagine that I'm the only one in that boat.
Yup.

My iPad just alerted me to a Bloomberg news story that Apple is planning to announce three new laptops in June. Why bother?

I don't regularly have to travel for work, and I can cut that back to zero if needed.

I need to travel by plane to visit family, but that is a couple trips a year.

All my other air travel is discretionary. There are plenty of interesting sites I can drive to to keep me occupied for the next few years. If the dire predictions of some here regarding the restrictions become reality, watch the global travel and major segments of the tourism industry go down the drain.
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Old May 16, 2017, 2:49 pm
  #727  
 
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Originally Posted by Need
The airlines are going to like this change... the average laptop with power adapter is going to weight about 10 lb. Putting that into the checked luggage is likely going to put it into the overweight category. $$$
1999 called. They want their laptop back.

My travel laptop and charger weigh less than 3 pounds.
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Old May 16, 2017, 3:00 pm
  #728  
 
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Originally Posted by susiesan
Is the convention wisdom that if this ban does go into effect that this will be permanent? Is this going to be the new normal? The original ban on electronics from the 8 ME and African cities was supposed to be temporary, wasn't it?

I'm not flying overseas until October, to Europe for a vacation. My biggest concern is with a camera, having to check them in and expect to get it back in one piece. If this does go into effect I hope it is only for the summer.
The security complex rarely seems to scale back even with those things that are initially promised to be "temporary until we find a better method", etc.

Depending on the value of your camera gear, consider specialized camera insurance. It's not all that expensive and can provide better coverage for potential incidents than general travel insurance. It may also be worth considering a Pelican case or similar if your equipment is expensive enough to make that worthwhile. But you have time before you'd need to make any decision with an October trip.

That is our biggest concern as my wife has a fairly pricey camera and related gear (don't ask me what - I leave all that to her!) and while she has insurance on it, it's always been in carry-on luggage so we may need to have a more robust case if it ends up having to be checked.
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Old May 16, 2017, 3:00 pm
  #729  
 
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I'm starting to dread what is going to come out of this, especially if they limit medical devices. I carry my Omnipod remote, a CGM remote, and a glucose meter. Then each Omnipod "Pod" is probably going to be considered an electronic device since it has a battery. Since those pods are changed every 2-3 days, I have to carry multiples of them. I carry extra pods in case there is a problem with one. For a week long trip, I could be at several medical devices, depending on how they count them. I may have to switch back to syringes for my trip to England this summer and that is just not acceptable.
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Old May 16, 2017, 3:06 pm
  #730  
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Originally Posted by 84fiero
The security complex rarely seems to scale back even with those things that are initially promised to be "temporary until we find a better method", etc.

Depending on the value of your camera gear, consider specialized camera insurance. It's not all that expensive and can provide better coverage for potential incidents than general travel insurance. It may also be worth considering a Pelican case or similar if your equipment is expensive enough to make that worthwhile. But you have time before you'd need to make any decision with an October trip.

That is our biggest concern as my wife has a fairly pricey camera and related gear (don't ask me what - I leave all that to her!) and while she has insurance on it, it's always been in carry-on luggage so we may need to have a more robust case if it ends up having to be checked.
Can you find out who offers this specialized camera insurance? Mostly you see travel insurance or homeowners insurance with possible riders.
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Old May 16, 2017, 3:22 pm
  #731  
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Somewhat related to this thread:

THE WALL STREET JOURNAL News Alert

Israel Provided Intelligence That Trump Shared With Russia, Officials Say
The classified information that President Donald Trump shared last week with Russian officials was provided to the U.S. by Israel, according to officials with direct knowledge of the matter.

The intelligence came from a particularly valuable source of information about the Islamic State terrorist group's ability to build sophisticated explosives that could evade aviation-security measures and be placed on aircraft, these officials said. The source of the information was developed before Mr. Trump's election in November, they said.
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Old May 16, 2017, 3:36 pm
  #732  
 
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MSY-MSP wrote:
So the person with the medical device will likely have to decide between the medical device and the laptop.
What happens when the laptop is needed to communicate with the medical device (I'm thinking pacemaker) to report on the functioning of said medical device?

Last edited by petaluma1; May 16, 2017 at 3:48 pm
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Old May 16, 2017, 3:40 pm
  #733  
 
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Originally Posted by spd476
I'm starting to dread what is going to come out of this, especially if they limit medical devices. I carry my Omnipod remote, a CGM remote, and a glucose meter. Then each Omnipod "Pod" is probably going to be considered an electronic device since it has a battery. Since those pods are changed every 2-3 days, I have to carry multiples of them. I carry extra pods in case there is a problem with one. For a week long trip, I could be at several medical devices, depending on how they count them. I may have to switch back to syringes for my trip to England this summer and that is just not acceptable.
So, a serious question: If the intel came from Israel, why the frak aren't they rather on the leading edge of this whole circus?
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Old May 16, 2017, 3:43 pm
  #734  
 
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Originally Posted by MSY-MSP
It does look like the rules will be fairly draconian. It will severely limit the number of devices that a person can bring with them. The burden on security checkpoints is going to be very high. The rules are likely going to require swabbing of all electronic devices. It seems there will be no limit on micro electronic devices, e.g. hearing aids, watches, and devices of that size. There will be a limit on large electronic devices, e.g. laptops, cameras, and the like. This number will likely be limited to one per passenger. The two open questions that I have heard are how are they going to classify devices such as ipad minis and small e-readers. The big ones of these fall into the laptop category. There is debate on these hybrid sized devices. The likely place is that they will fall with the laptops, but it is possible they will fall with the phone restrictions. It looks like the phone restriction will be no more than two phone sized devices.

It further looks like that there will be a ban on these items in the hold as well. As I have mentioned previously, the EU is close to banning these items from the hold, if the cabin restrictions are implemented.
So if I understand correctly passengers may be limited to one larger device but they will be able to take that in the cabin?
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Old May 16, 2017, 3:50 pm
  #735  
 
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Originally Posted by GrayAnderson
So, a serious question: If the intel came from Israel, why the frak aren't they rather on the leading edge of this whole circus?
Because they screen people, not the crap they bring with them.
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