FAM left weapon in bathroom of plane
Apr 24, 2017, 8:33 am
#16
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Normally such an occurrence would require separation. However, the service is desperately trying to improve its numbers of female marshals and coming on the heels of another female marshal that was fired, management will be loathe to separate another one so soon. We will see what happens....
Meanwhile, a FAM who is tasked with staying armed and alert for the duration of a flight fails at that simple function and ....no problem. The other 'layers' of security protected us.
I fail to see how crotch-fondling mitigates the risk of a FAM who can't even perform the simple task of staying armed and alert during a flight.
Apr 24, 2017, 9:08 am
#17
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Moderator's Note: Please let's get back on topic
Folks,
This thread is about a Federal Air Marshal who forgot her weapon in an airplane lavatory, not about pat downs at TSA security checkpoints.
We already have a thread dealing with the TSA's new “comprehensive” physical screening which involves more intimate contact:
Please use that thread for commenting and debating the effectiveness, of lack thereof, of the new universal pat-down protocol .
Thank you,
TWA884
Travel Safety/Security co-moderator
This thread is about a Federal Air Marshal who forgot her weapon in an airplane lavatory, not about pat downs at TSA security checkpoints.
We already have a thread dealing with the TSA's new “comprehensive” physical screening which involves more intimate contact:
Please use that thread for commenting and debating the effectiveness, of lack thereof, of the new universal pat-down protocol .
Thank you,
TWA884
Travel Safety/Security co-moderator
Apr 24, 2017, 9:45 am
#18
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Apr 24, 2017, 10:10 am
#19
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I find it funny that some former air Marshall commented in the article that "she wasn't given the appropriate tools to succeed," since she was a new hire and not much training was involved. What tools and training did she need? Common sense to not leave your loaded weapon behind?
Apr 24, 2017, 11:16 am
#20
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I'm wondering what kind of training it takes to teach a licensed firearm owner that it is part of his/her job to keep control of his/her weapon all the time - something that all responsible firearm owners should do all the time anyway, on or off the job.
Do you ask the FAM to repeat: "I will maintain control of my firearm at all times' and sign a memorandum certifying that she has received that (re)training? How much do the taxpayers get charged for this 'training'?
IMHO, based on her careless behavior, her license to carry should be at least suspended. She is not responsible enough to be trusted with a firearm on or off the job.
Do you ask the FAM to repeat: "I will maintain control of my firearm at all times' and sign a memorandum certifying that she has received that (re)training? How much do the taxpayers get charged for this 'training'?
IMHO, based on her careless behavior, her license to carry should be at least suspended. She is not responsible enough to be trusted with a firearm on or off the job.
Apr 24, 2017, 11:21 am
#21
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Are those couriers unionized? 
How about, like, now:
FIRED. This FAM should be immediately FIRED. As Cholie said about the courier above, no retraining, no second chances, no appeals. FIRED.
Likewise, the LEO who forgot she had a loaded weapon with her when she boarded an international flight from LAX to BNN via TPE should also be FIRED.
As a responsible gun owner, I have the utmost contempt, and tremendous resentment, for those who treat their firearms with such Brobdingnagian carelessness. They are a black eye on the face of the entire gun-owning public.
And as a citizen, I find it unconscionable and utterly unforgivable that a trained law enforcement officer would show such stupidity with regard to the handling of their weapons, whether on or off duty.
FIRED. Nothing less is acceptable.
But it won't happen to either of them. TSA will give their newbie FAM a slap on the wrist. The CSP officer will likely be prosecuted under Taiwanese law, though they'll probably just fine her and let her go, so as not to alienate the US government, and her prosecution and long detainment in Taipei will inspire sympathy back home that will save her from any domestic consequences.
It disgusts me that such idiots wear badges in an ostensibly enlightened nation in the 21st century.
How about, like, now:
FIRED. This FAM should be immediately FIRED. As Cholie said about the courier above, no retraining, no second chances, no appeals. FIRED.
Likewise, the LEO who forgot she had a loaded weapon with her when she boarded an international flight from LAX to BNN via TPE should also be FIRED.
As a responsible gun owner, I have the utmost contempt, and tremendous resentment, for those who treat their firearms with such Brobdingnagian carelessness. They are a black eye on the face of the entire gun-owning public.
And as a citizen, I find it unconscionable and utterly unforgivable that a trained law enforcement officer would show such stupidity with regard to the handling of their weapons, whether on or off duty.
FIRED. Nothing less is acceptable.
But it won't happen to either of them. TSA will give their newbie FAM a slap on the wrist. The CSP officer will likely be prosecuted under Taiwanese law, though they'll probably just fine her and let her go, so as not to alienate the US government, and her prosecution and long detainment in Taipei will inspire sympathy back home that will save her from any domestic consequences.
It disgusts me that such idiots wear badges in an ostensibly enlightened nation in the 21st century.
I think you need to take the entirety of what happened to determine what corrective action to take. Is there something about how FAM's are instructed to wear their weapons that requires removal to use the restroom, especially for women? Is there an alternative manner that would resolve this problem if carry method is an issue. Has this person had issues before or such?
Firing may be the right answer but a slightly lower punishment might also be appropriate. I can't imagine a much worse violation except for shooting someone that a FAM could be involved in. There may still be better methods other than firing that sends the right message and hopefully develops a method so FAM's have no need to remove their weapon.
Apr 24, 2017, 11:32 am
#22
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I come down pretty hard on anything TSA related but we are all human and make mistakes. If one of us didn't make mistakes we'd have a different name.
I think you need to take the entirety of what happened to determine what corrective action to take. Is there something about how FAM's are instructed to wear their weapons that requires removal to use the restroom, especially for women? Is there an alternative manner that would resolve this problem if carry method is an issue. Has this person had issues before or such?
Firing may be the right answer but a slightly lower punishment might also be appropriate. I can't imagine a much worse violation except for shooting someone that a FAM could be involved in. There may still be better methods other than firing that sends the right message and hopefully develops a method so FAM's have no need to remove their weapon.
I think you need to take the entirety of what happened to determine what corrective action to take. Is there something about how FAM's are instructed to wear their weapons that requires removal to use the restroom, especially for women? Is there an alternative manner that would resolve this problem if carry method is an issue. Has this person had issues before or such?
Firing may be the right answer but a slightly lower punishment might also be appropriate. I can't imagine a much worse violation except for shooting someone that a FAM could be involved in. There may still be better methods other than firing that sends the right message and hopefully develops a method so FAM's have no need to remove their weapon.
I care if they forget to take their weapon with them when they leave the lav.
Loose gun is about as dangerous a thing as can happen on a plane.
Sit behind a desk in an office. Without a weapon.
Apr 24, 2017, 11:34 am
#23
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I don't know how FAMs usually carry their weapons, but it would seem to me that they'd want easy access from a seated position, if necessary. I'm guessing that would preclude many waist holsters.
I just think this is such a basic safety issue, one that is relevant to all firearm owners at all times, that the employee deserves to be punished harshly. She's tasked with two things: keeping track of her firearm at all times and being awake and alert at all times during the flight. She gets fantastic pay and benefits for doing these two simple things, yet she failed - and in the worst way. If she'd fallen asleep, I could have been slightly more understanding - and pax would have been a lot less at risk.
It's like finding out your surgeon didn't wash his hands before operating on you - but hey, you didn't get an infection and everybody makes mistakes, so it's OK, give the buy a break.
I just think this is such a basic safety issue, one that is relevant to all firearm owners at all times, that the employee deserves to be punished harshly. She's tasked with two things: keeping track of her firearm at all times and being awake and alert at all times during the flight. She gets fantastic pay and benefits for doing these two simple things, yet she failed - and in the worst way. If she'd fallen asleep, I could have been slightly more understanding - and pax would have been a lot less at risk.
It's like finding out your surgeon didn't wash his hands before operating on you - but hey, you didn't get an infection and everybody makes mistakes, so it's OK, give the buy a break.
Apr 24, 2017, 12:36 pm
#24
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I just read the news story again to refresh my memory of the event. It seems that the FAM did not report the incident to her superiors for several days. That to me is as big a deal as not controlling the weapon. Not self reporting is a matter of integrity. In my mind that is a larger issue and should result in the most severe punishment that is available.
Apr 24, 2017, 12:45 pm
#25
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I just read the news story again to refresh my memory of the event. It seems that the FAM did not report the incident to her superiors for several days. That to me is as big a deal as not controlling the weapon. Not self reporting is a matter of integrity. In my mind that is a larger issue and should result in the most severe punishment that is available.
Or maybe FAMs, like TSOs, are allowed to use their 'discretion' to ignore or modify any of their training.
Apr 24, 2017, 12:53 pm
#26
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I come down pretty hard on anything TSA related but we are all human and make mistakes. If one of us didn't make mistakes we'd have a different name.
I think you need to take the entirety of what happened to determine what corrective action to take. Is there something about how FAM's are instructed to wear their weapons that requires removal to use the restroom, especially for women? Is there an alternative manner that would resolve this problem if carry method is an issue. Has this person had issues before or such?
Firing may be the right answer but a slightly lower punishment might also be appropriate. I can't imagine a much worse violation except for shooting someone that a FAM could be involved in. There may still be better methods other than firing that sends the right message and hopefully develops a method so FAM's have no need to remove their weapon.
I think you need to take the entirety of what happened to determine what corrective action to take. Is there something about how FAM's are instructed to wear their weapons that requires removal to use the restroom, especially for women? Is there an alternative manner that would resolve this problem if carry method is an issue. Has this person had issues before or such?
Firing may be the right answer but a slightly lower punishment might also be appropriate. I can't imagine a much worse violation except for shooting someone that a FAM could be involved in. There may still be better methods other than firing that sends the right message and hopefully develops a method so FAM's have no need to remove their weapon.
She failed to maintain knowledge and control of her loaded weapon, leaving it in a public place where someone else found and reported it.
This is not losing your car keys or your phone. This is not even forgetting to pick up your kid from school for soccer practice. This is losing positive control of a loaded, deadly weapon, in a public place. This is the kind of "mistake" (born from criminal negligence) that puts peoples' live in direct, immediate, physical danger, right then, right there, and that is unforgivable.
FIRED. No less is appropriate, in my opinion.
I don't know how FAMs usually carry their weapons, but it would seem to me that they'd want easy access from a seated position, if necessary. I'm guessing that would preclude many waist holsters.
I just think this is such a basic safety issue, one that is relevant to all firearm owners at all times, that the employee deserves to be punished harshly. She's tasked with two things: keeping track of her firearm at all times and being awake and alert at all times during the flight. She gets fantastic pay and benefits for doing these two simple things, yet she failed - and in the worst way. If she'd fallen asleep, I could have been slightly more understanding - and pax would have been a lot less at risk.
It's like finding out your surgeon didn't wash his hands before operating on you - but hey, you didn't get an infection and everybody makes mistakes, so it's OK, give the buy a break.
I just think this is such a basic safety issue, one that is relevant to all firearm owners at all times, that the employee deserves to be punished harshly. She's tasked with two things: keeping track of her firearm at all times and being awake and alert at all times during the flight. She gets fantastic pay and benefits for doing these two simple things, yet she failed - and in the worst way. If she'd fallen asleep, I could have been slightly more understanding - and pax would have been a lot less at risk.
It's like finding out your surgeon didn't wash his hands before operating on you - but hey, you didn't get an infection and everybody makes mistakes, so it's OK, give the buy a break.
I just read the news story again to refresh my memory of the event. It seems that the FAM did not report the incident to her superiors for several days. That to me is as big a deal as not controlling the weapon. Not self reporting is a matter of integrity. In my mind that is a larger issue and should result in the most severe punishment that is available.
So it seems that we agree, though for different reasons, that this FAM should be terminated.
Apr 24, 2017, 1:01 pm
#27
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If I want to be charitable, I will say that the FAM should be allowed to apply for other openings for which she might be qualified but which do not involve 1) a firearm or 2) unsupervised duties, since she clearly can't be relied on to follow rules.
Apr 24, 2017, 1:09 pm
#28
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Maybe something outside of TSA like the BOP. They aren't armed in most cases although there are some that have weapons or access to weapons but under tightly controlled conditions. Would still carry the Federal Law Enforcement designation and resulting pay increases.
Apr 24, 2017, 2:23 pm
#30
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Sometimes, the entirety doesn't matter.
She failed to maintain knowledge and control of her loaded weapon, leaving it in a public place where someone else found and reported it.
This is not losing your car keys or your phone. This is not even forgetting to pick up your kid from school for soccer practice. This is losing positive control of a loaded, deadly weapon, in a public place. This is the kind of "mistake" (born from criminal negligence) that puts peoples' live in direct, immediate, physical danger, right then, right there, and that is unforgivable.
FIRED. No less is appropriate, in my opinion.
I'd compare it more to a surgeon losing track of his clamps and sewing one up inside a patient, still clamped around a blood vessel. Oops, my bad, LOL, anybody can make a mistake, why should I lose my license to practice medicine just because my negligent behavior put a patient's life at risk?
I don't regard the failure to report the incident as any more serious than the incident itself. Both are, in my opinion, grounds for instant termination of employment.
So it seems that we agree, though for different reasons, that this FAM should be terminated.
She failed to maintain knowledge and control of her loaded weapon, leaving it in a public place where someone else found and reported it.
This is not losing your car keys or your phone. This is not even forgetting to pick up your kid from school for soccer practice. This is losing positive control of a loaded, deadly weapon, in a public place. This is the kind of "mistake" (born from criminal negligence) that puts peoples' live in direct, immediate, physical danger, right then, right there, and that is unforgivable.
FIRED. No less is appropriate, in my opinion.
I'd compare it more to a surgeon losing track of his clamps and sewing one up inside a patient, still clamped around a blood vessel. Oops, my bad, LOL, anybody can make a mistake, why should I lose my license to practice medicine just because my negligent behavior put a patient's life at risk?
I don't regard the failure to report the incident as any more serious than the incident itself. Both are, in my opinion, grounds for instant termination of employment.
So it seems that we agree, though for different reasons, that this FAM should be terminated.
The second matter is the failure to report the incident. That took a willful decision by the FAM. That is a failure of personal integrity which in most government LEO positions is an immediate firing offense.
Both issues are serious but I think the integrity issue trumps the lose of control of the weapon, but not by much.
I was wondering and perhaps one of our more well heeled travelers can answer a question. Are the lavs up in first so spacious that a person would likely miss seeing their holstered gun sitting unattended? I know the lavs in the back have so little room that you can meet yourself trying to turn around.