Organic Matter

Old Dec 13, 2016, 10:39 am
  #16  
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The problem isn't the scientific v. colloquial use of the term 'organic' (or 'sharp' or 'food'). The problem is that instead of training 45K employees to use 'organic' the same way, TSA prefers to hound and harass millions of flyers for not understanding the many different ways TSOs use the word 'organic'.

The problem for pax is that you never know when you're going to encounter an aggressive TSO who, with the full support of his/her co-workers, LTSOs, STSOs and supervisors, uses a particular interpretation of the word to harass and bully pax.

The best tactic I have found is to grovel, ask what exactly the TSO in front of you means by 'organic' or 'sharp' or 'food', and then over-declare anything and everything I can possibly think of. If worse comes to worse, I'll say I didn't have my bag in my sight at all times and it's possible someone in the family could have slipped something in unawares. That will likely get me a punitive extended bag search, but AFAIK, it's not illegal yet to have someone in the family slip something into your bag without your knowledge. I can't be accused of failing to disclose something I didn't know was in my bag.
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Old Dec 13, 2016, 12:17 pm
  #17  
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Originally Posted by :D!
I wouldn't drink "organic H-twenty" either
How did they even have it in the first place? Wouldn't it take incredible pressure to make a H[sub]20[/sub] molecule in the first place?
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Old Dec 14, 2016, 6:58 am
  #18  
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"Officer, I don't understand what you mean by 'organic.'"
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Old Dec 14, 2016, 7:12 am
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Originally Posted by chollie
The problem isn't the scientific v. colloquial use of the term 'organic' (or 'sharp' or 'food'). The problem is that instead of training 45K employees to use 'organic' the same way, TSA prefers to hound and harass millions of flyers for not understanding the many different ways TSOs use the word 'organic'.

The problem for pax is that you never know when you're going to encounter an aggressive TSO who, with the full support of his/her co-workers, LTSOs, STSOs and supervisors, uses a particular interpretation of the word to harass and bully pax.

The best tactic I have found is to grovel, ask what exactly the TSO in front of you means by 'organic' or 'sharp' or 'food', and then over-declare anything and everything I can possibly think of. If worse comes to worse, I'll say I didn't have my bag in my sight at all times and it's possible someone in the family could have slipped something in unawares. That will likely get me a punitive extended bag search, but AFAIK, it's not illegal yet to have someone in the family slip something into your bag without your knowledge. I can't be accused of failing to disclose something I didn't know was in my bag.
Even if DHS employees were to use a phrase in the same way all the time for a given purpose, passengers may not all understand the phrase/term in the same way all the time.

I'd be surprised if the shoes of most returning government and military officials coming back from assignments/work trips abroad had no foreign "organic matter" on them. Yet CBP gives most such people and the rest a pass at customs even as there may be potential harm for our environment from what is on the bottom of most of those shoes. It's because even CBP doesn't entirely understand that they really aren't designed to catch everything
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Old Dec 14, 2016, 11:04 am
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Originally Posted by Badenoch
"Officer, I don't understand what you mean by 'organic.'"
This.
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Old Dec 14, 2016, 11:02 pm
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Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel
How did they even have it in the first place? Wouldn't it take incredible pressure to make a H[sub]20[/sub] molecule in the first place?
Yeah, that's what I get for typing on FT while doing something else at the same time.


http://www.smh.com.au/business/media-and-marketing/organic-water-claims-misleading-says-watchdog-20130715-2q0wj.html
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Old Apr 15, 2019, 12:12 pm
  #22  
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Originally Posted by chollie
The problem isn't the scientific v. colloquial use of the term 'organic' (or 'sharp' or 'food'). The problem is that instead of training 45K employees to use 'organic' the same way, TSA prefers to hound and harass millions of flyers for not understanding the many different ways TSOs use the word 'organic'.

The problem for pax is that you never know when you're going to encounter an aggressive TSO who, with the full support of his/her co-workers, LTSOs, STSOs and supervisors, uses a particular interpretation of the word to harass and bully pax.

The best tactic I have found is to grovel, ask what exactly the TSO in front of you means by 'organic' or 'sharp' or 'food', and then over-declare anything and everything I can possibly think of. If worse comes to worse, I'll say I didn't have my bag in my sight at all times and it's possible someone in the family could have slipped something in unawares. That will likely get me a punitive extended bag search, but AFAIK, it's not illegal yet to have someone in the family slip something into your bag without your knowledge. I can't be accused of failing to disclose something I didn't know was in my bag.
In PHL today, I asked the TSA agent that went through every corner of my bag (that has been with me for five weeks through probably more than 15 airports without problem overseas), what exactly should I not bring next time that might be concerning. She said, "organic matter." I said, "what does that mean." She said, "I can't tell you." My jaw dropped...so you're violating my property...opening personal gifts I have brought for people without my consent, but can't tell me why?

Can someone please point me to official documentation as to why? You can read the ingredients on the food package? Why open the entire thing so that is no longer sanitary? I have had TSA break zippers and even glass items in my bag and shrug before walking away...someone with no educational background should not be given this power. It's beyond insane...they feed on it.
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Old Apr 17, 2019, 8:50 am
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Originally Posted by SkyTeam777
In PHL today, I asked the TSA agent that went through every corner of my bag (that has been with me for five weeks through probably more than 15 airports without problem overseas), what exactly should I not bring next time that might be concerning. She said, "organic matter." I said, "what does that mean." She said, "I can't tell you." My jaw dropped...so you're violating my property...opening personal gifts I have brought for people without my consent, but can't tell me why?

Can someone please point me to official documentation as to why? You can read the ingredients on the food package? Why open the entire thing so that is no longer sanitary? I have had TSA break zippers and even glass items in my bag and shrug before walking away...someone with no educational background should not be given this power. It's beyond insane...they feed on it.
And some people still can't understand why it's called Security Theater. Ridiculous.
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Old Apr 18, 2019, 12:11 pm
  #24  
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Originally Posted by SkyTeam777
In PHL today, I asked the TSA agent that went through every corner of my bag (that has been with me for five weeks through probably more than 15 airports without problem overseas), what exactly should I not bring next time that might be concerning. She said, "organic matter." I said, "what does that mean." She said, "I can't tell you." My jaw dropped...so you're violating my property...opening personal gifts I have brought for people without my consent, but can't tell me why?

Can someone please point me to official documentation as to why? You can read the ingredients on the food package? Why open the entire thing so that is no longer sanitary? I have had TSA break zippers and even glass items in my bag and shrug before walking away...someone with no educational background should not be given this power. It's beyond insane...they feed on it.
"I can't tell you" means "I don't know, but I will act like I do by being authoritative." Anyone who didn't sleep through high school chemistry knows that the definition of "organic" is any chemical compound with a carbon base -- the building block of life as we know it. Telling clerks to search for "organics" sounds sinister, terroristic and invokes freedom-saving motivation. Next time, tell her that she has about 500 ML of organics at this very instant inside her body (average capacity of the human bladder)! (Urea (i.e.: urine) = CH4N2O )
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Old Apr 18, 2019, 5:16 pm
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Actually carbonmonoxide, carbon dioxide, carbonates, and cyanides are generally considered inorganic. But these are exceptions.
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Old Apr 18, 2019, 5:36 pm
  #26  
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Originally Posted by yandosan
Actually carbonmonoxide, carbon dioxide, carbonates, and cyanides are generally considered inorganic. But these are exceptions.
I restricted my scope to high school chemistry!
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Old Apr 21, 2019, 7:04 am
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The simplest definition of "organic matter" that I have found in the public forum is "an item of decaying plant or animal material". This opens up the definition to include anything made from animals, or plants (living items) - clothes, wooden items, food items that are plant based or animal based. TSOs should be able to relate that to someone that asks them (at least, in my experience, the vast majority of them have been able to). The same goes for inorganic materials - inorganic is simply defined as things that are not derived from living organisms (if we get a bit more technical, I believe a more precise definition is material that lacks carbon that was organically produced - although, I am not a Scientist). Most TSOs will be able to articulate the differences to a passenger. YMMV (I know, I know!), but I have heard tons of TSOs at a few airports explain this quite well.
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Old Apr 21, 2019, 6:44 pm
  #28  
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Originally Posted by gsoltso
The simplest definition of "organic matter" that I have found in the public forum is "an item of decaying plant or animal material". This opens up the definition to include anything made from animals, or plants (living items) - clothes, wooden items, food items that are plant based or animal based. TSOs should be able to relate that to someone that asks them (at least, in my experience, the vast majority of them have been able to). The same goes for inorganic materials - inorganic is simply defined as things that are not derived from living organisms (if we get a bit more technical, I believe a more precise definition is material that lacks carbon that was organically produced - although, I am not a Scientist). Most TSOs will be able to articulate the differences to a passenger. YMMV (I know, I know!), but I have heard tons of TSOs at a few airports explain this quite well.

99.99999% of travelers transiting a TSA Checkpoint truly want to do things that help themselves through the Blue Glove Gauntlet. When screeners play coy and won't explain a concern so that we can assist in the process it only makes TSA seem petty and certainly doesn't build allies. Travelers are not your enemy even though we are too often treated that way. TSA screeners should remember at all times that they are the face of TSA, not the FSD, AFSD, or other higher ups. Want to make your jobs easier? Then build trust and rapport with travelers.
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Old Apr 22, 2019, 11:17 am
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Originally Posted by Boggie Dog
99.99999% of travelers transiting a TSA Checkpoint truly want to do things that help themselves through the Blue Glove Gauntlet. When screeners play coy and won't explain a concern so that we can assist in the process it only makes TSA seem petty and certainly doesn't build allies. Travelers are not your enemy even though we are too often treated that way. TSA screeners should remember at all times that they are the face of TSA, not the FSD, AFSD, or other higher ups. Want to make your jobs easier? Then build trust and rapport with travelers.
I have mirrored many of your statements here and at other sites. I have always indicated that passengers are not the enemy, they are simply people trying to get from point A to point B with as little hassle as possible. A passenger that comprehends what is going on, and what is being asked/explained of/to them, they are much more likely to be:

A. Understanding of the process, even if they don't understand the reasoning behind it or agree with it
B. Able to get through the checkpoint with less challenge
C. Willing participants in the process (which removes many of the other challenges that passengers routinely face)

I (and many of my coworkers) work hard to foster a cooperative environment, all day, every day. None of us is perfect, but the minimum that passengers should expect is a professional engagement that is courteous - and the organization incorporates that attitude in almost every single organized training class we have. It is a benchmark in the Basic training program that TSOs go through at FLETC. If a TSO is professional, courteous and follows the SOP, almost all of the escalations become about TSA policy, or personal issues of the passenger, not the TSO standing in front of you (at least, for the vast majority of escalations). Building that rapport and connections with the flying public creates a much calmer checkpoint, which usually translates to an easier transition for passengers (and for the TSOs, if we are going to be completely honest). I have always agreed with you on many of these points.
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Old Apr 22, 2019, 12:48 pm
  #30  
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Originally Posted by gsoltso
I have mirrored many of your statements here and at other sites. I have always indicated that passengers are not the enemy, they are simply people trying to get from point A to point B with as little hassle as possible. A passenger that comprehends what is going on, and what is being asked/explained of/to them, they are much more likely to be:

A. Understanding of the process, even if they don't understand the reasoning behind it or agree with it
B. Able to get through the checkpoint with less challenge
C. Willing participants in the process (which removes many of the other challenges that passengers routinely face)

I (and many of my coworkers) work hard to foster a cooperative environment, all day, every day. None of us is perfect, but the minimum that passengers should expect is a professional engagement that is courteous - and the organization incorporates that attitude in almost every single organized training class we have. It is a benchmark in the Basic training program that TSOs go through at FLETC. If a TSO is professional, courteous and follows the SOP, almost all of the escalations become about TSA policy, or personal issues of the passenger, not the TSO standing in front of you (at least, for the vast majority of escalations). Building that rapport and connections with the flying public creates a much calmer checkpoint, which usually translates to an easier transition for passengers (and for the TSOs, if we are going to be completely honest). I have always agreed with you on many of these points.
Highlighting above mine.

Issues that I have experienced were caused by power tripping TSA screeners, excepting one thief screener.

Case in point! Also And do note that this outstanding example of TSA professionalism is a 3 striper.

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Last edited by Boggie Dog; Apr 23, 2019 at 5:34 pm
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