Pat-down conducted on 10yr old girl.
Jan 2, 2016, 12:48 pm
#16
Formerly known as I_Hate_US_Airways
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Wow )-:
Sorry your daughter had to go thru this. As someone who lives in another country, I am simply appauled at the conduct of the TSA. While we COULD transit the USA when flying to Canada or Europe, we choose to avoid it in order not to have to deal with the TSA...
Jan 2, 2016, 1:48 pm
#17
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,526
Sticking a thumb into a young's girls crotch and running the thumbs across her breasts is fondling.
Jan 2, 2016, 2:20 pm
#18
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 38,410
1. It almost certainly was NOT a false positive. Ion spectrometry machines are actually remarkably accurate and do not tend to false alarm. Saying it was a false positive is misleading. Now, what was it positive for? They don't say. Is there a legitimate explanation for the positive reading? Almost certainly. But a false positive - nope, no way. Here's an example to put it into a better light - much currency will test positive for cocaine and other drugs. Does that mean those positives are false? NO - the currency was exposed to them. Likely, the child and/or her bags were exposed to explosives in a legal setting. Regardless, with evidence of explosives, they need to determine there are none on her.
2. Not as likely is not zero risk. They had evidence of her carrying explosives, and had to be sure she wasn't.
2. Not as likely is not zero risk. They had evidence of her carrying explosives, and had to be sure she wasn't.
Trust me, that's not fondling. I've been fondled during a search, once... it sucks, it's traumatizing, and there isn't a darn thing you can do about it because it's your word against the officers. Looking at that video, it was conducted professional and with the least amount of contact required to be reasonably sure the kid wasn't carrying explosives hidden on them.
Jan 2, 2016, 2:39 pm
#19
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 28,099
I think that's exactly the assumption, and where better to hide them but ON the child, who is presumably less likely to be searched due to attitudes like this?
Yes, the swab of her bag. Two things:
1. It almost certainly was NOT a false positive. Ion spectrometry machines are actually remarkably accurate and do not tend to false alarm. Saying it was a false positive is misleading. Now, what was it positive for? They don't say. Is there a legitimate explanation for the positive reading? Almost certainly. But a false positive - nope, no way. Here's an example to put it into a better light - much currency will test positive for cocaine and other drugs. Does that mean those positives are false? NO - the currency was exposed to them. Likely, the child and/or her bags were exposed to explosives in a legal setting. Regardless, with evidence of explosives, they need to determine there are none on her.
2. Not as likely is not zero risk. They had evidence of her carrying explosives, and had to be sure she wasn't.
Trust me, that's not fondling. I've been fondled during a search, once... it sucks, it's traumatizing, and there isn't a darn thing you can do about it because it's your word against the officers. Looking at that video, it was conducted professional and with the least amount of contact required to be reasonably sure the kid wasn't carrying explosives hidden on them.
Yes, the swab of her bag. Two things:
1. It almost certainly was NOT a false positive. Ion spectrometry machines are actually remarkably accurate and do not tend to false alarm. Saying it was a false positive is misleading. Now, what was it positive for? They don't say. Is there a legitimate explanation for the positive reading? Almost certainly. But a false positive - nope, no way. Here's an example to put it into a better light - much currency will test positive for cocaine and other drugs. Does that mean those positives are false? NO - the currency was exposed to them. Likely, the child and/or her bags were exposed to explosives in a legal setting. Regardless, with evidence of explosives, they need to determine there are none on her.
2. Not as likely is not zero risk. They had evidence of her carrying explosives, and had to be sure she wasn't.
Trust me, that's not fondling. I've been fondled during a search, once... it sucks, it's traumatizing, and there isn't a darn thing you can do about it because it's your word against the officers. Looking at that video, it was conducted professional and with the least amount of contact required to be reasonably sure the kid wasn't carrying explosives hidden on them.
I agree it wasn't a fondling, it was sexual assualt of a young girl.
Jan 2, 2016, 4:20 pm
#20
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 396
I think that's exactly the assumption, and where better to hide them but ON the child, who is presumably less likely to be searched due to attitudes like this?
Yes, the swab of her bag. Two things:
1. It almost certainly was NOT a false positive. Ion spectrometry machines are actually remarkably accurate and do not tend to false alarm. Saying it was a false positive is misleading. Now, what was it positive for? They don't say. Is there a legitimate explanation for the positive reading? Almost certainly. But a false positive - nope, no way. Here's an example to put it into a better light - much currency will test positive for cocaine and other drugs. Does that mean those positives are false? NO - the currency was exposed to them. Likely, the child and/or her bags were exposed to explosives in a legal setting. Regardless, with evidence of explosives, they need to determine there are none on her.
Yes, the swab of her bag. Two things:
1. It almost certainly was NOT a false positive. Ion spectrometry machines are actually remarkably accurate and do not tend to false alarm. Saying it was a false positive is misleading. Now, what was it positive for? They don't say. Is there a legitimate explanation for the positive reading? Almost certainly. But a false positive - nope, no way. Here's an example to put it into a better light - much currency will test positive for cocaine and other drugs. Does that mean those positives are false? NO - the currency was exposed to them. Likely, the child and/or her bags were exposed to explosives in a legal setting. Regardless, with evidence of explosives, they need to determine there are none on her.
You haven't traversed airports much have you? Many of us have heard or been told "Did you put lotion on today" following a "positive" alarm from an ETD swiping. Or how about an elderly person who takes nitrate pills? I have been told "the machine test for chemicals found in explosives". How many chemicals are found in exosives? How many of those chemicals are everyday chemicals?.
Do you know that you can not bring more than 3.4oz of hydrogen peroxide based contact cleaner on a plane? It is not an explosive, but hydrogen peroxide is a chemical found in certain explosives.
read this GOA report, which covers "false alarm" rates of morpho etd machines
Jan 2, 2016, 4:31 pm
#21
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,526
Do you know that you can not bring more than 3.4oz of hydrogen peroxide based contact cleaner on a plane? It is not an explosive, but hydrogen peroxide is a chemical found in certain explosives.
read this GOA report, which covers "false alarm" rates of morpho etd machines
Jan 2, 2016, 6:55 pm
#22
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,537
If it was a hit on explosives per se I would agree with you--if the machine says C4 then there's C4 contamination somewhere. However, many of the hits are more generic in nature, molecules that can be explosive or can be innocent. Note, also, ammonium nitrate. Almost 40 years ago there was more than 300 pounds of it in the shed out back at my parent's house. High explosive (it's what was used in Oklahoma city) or just plant food? (A store had a going-out-of-business sale and we stocked up. Those bags turned into many, many tons of big, juicy grapefruit.)
They're supposed to use the back of the hand.
They're supposed to use the back of the hand.
I believe they're supposed to use the back of the hand when it'd be adequate, if the girl had high explosives strapped to her that might not be. The video honestly doesn't look bad. It was nothing like what I faced once.
You type a good talk; but there are serious flaws with your post.
You haven't traversed airports much have you? Many of us have heard or been told "Did you put lotion on today" following a "positive" alarm from an ETD swiping. Or how about an elderly person who takes nitrate pills? I have been told "the machine test for chemicals found in explosives". How many chemicals are found in exosives? How many of those chemicals are everyday chemicals?.
Do you know that you can not bring more than 3.4oz of hydrogen peroxide based contact cleaner on a plane? It is not an explosive, but hydrogen peroxide is a chemical found in certain explosives.
read this GOA report, which covers "false alarm" rates of morpho etd machines
You haven't traversed airports much have you? Many of us have heard or been told "Did you put lotion on today" following a "positive" alarm from an ETD swiping. Or how about an elderly person who takes nitrate pills? I have been told "the machine test for chemicals found in explosives". How many chemicals are found in exosives? How many of those chemicals are everyday chemicals?.
Do you know that you can not bring more than 3.4oz of hydrogen peroxide based contact cleaner on a plane? It is not an explosive, but hydrogen peroxide is a chemical found in certain explosives.
read this GOA report, which covers "false alarm" rates of morpho etd machines
Jan 2, 2016, 7:11 pm
#23
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 28,099
Treat it as an explosive until you know it's not. An alarm for a chemical that is used in explosives isn't "false" - the machine did what it was designed to do.
I believe they're supposed to use the back of the hand when it'd be adequate, if the girl had high explosives strapped to her that might not be. The video honestly doesn't look bad. It was nothing like what I faced once.
I travel quite a bit. I've alarmed the machines once. I'm saying those are not false positives, the machines are incredibly accurate actually. I'm sure I had a chemical on me (could've been in lotion, a cosmetic, whatever) that is also used in making explosives. So they search to be sure the cause isn't an explosive. It wasn't a false alarm. The machine alarmed for what it was designed to. It's actually a VERY good tech, that I think should be getting used more. We could be avoiding a lot of the MMW scans and getting more reliable results if we used the walk-through ion scan gates. But the TSA trialled them and didn't like them because they need maintained and the TSA didn't want to do so properly.
I believe they're supposed to use the back of the hand when it'd be adequate, if the girl had high explosives strapped to her that might not be. The video honestly doesn't look bad. It was nothing like what I faced once.
I travel quite a bit. I've alarmed the machines once. I'm saying those are not false positives, the machines are incredibly accurate actually. I'm sure I had a chemical on me (could've been in lotion, a cosmetic, whatever) that is also used in making explosives. So they search to be sure the cause isn't an explosive. It wasn't a false alarm. The machine alarmed for what it was designed to. It's actually a VERY good tech, that I think should be getting used more. We could be avoiding a lot of the MMW scans and getting more reliable results if we used the walk-through ion scan gates. But the TSA trialled them and didn't like them because they need maintained and the TSA didn't want to do so properly.
There was no reason for TSA to sexually assualt this young girl no matter her race.
Jan 2, 2016, 8:02 pm
#25
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: RDU
Posts: 5,239
Treat it as an explosive until you know it's not. An alarm for a chemical that is used in explosives isn't "false" - the machine did what it was designed to do.
I believe they're supposed to use the back of the hand when it'd be adequate, if the girl had high explosives strapped to her that might not be. The video honestly doesn't look bad. It was nothing like what I faced once.
I travel quite a bit. I've alarmed the machines once. I'm saying those are not false positives, the machines are incredibly accurate actually. I'm sure I had a chemical on me (could've been in lotion, a cosmetic, whatever) that is also used in making explosives. So they search to be sure the cause isn't an explosive. It wasn't a false alarm. The machine alarmed for what it was designed to. It's actually a VERY good tech, that I think should be getting used more. We could be avoiding a lot of the MMW scans and getting more reliable results if we used the walk-through ion scan gates. But the TSA trialled them and didn't like them because they need maintained and the TSA didn't want to do so properly.
I believe they're supposed to use the back of the hand when it'd be adequate, if the girl had high explosives strapped to her that might not be. The video honestly doesn't look bad. It was nothing like what I faced once.
I travel quite a bit. I've alarmed the machines once. I'm saying those are not false positives, the machines are incredibly accurate actually. I'm sure I had a chemical on me (could've been in lotion, a cosmetic, whatever) that is also used in making explosives. So they search to be sure the cause isn't an explosive. It wasn't a false alarm. The machine alarmed for what it was designed to. It's actually a VERY good tech, that I think should be getting used more. We could be avoiding a lot of the MMW scans and getting more reliable results if we used the walk-through ion scan gates. But the TSA trialled them and didn't like them because they need maintained and the TSA didn't want to do so properly.
Jan 3, 2016, 12:47 am
#26
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Trust me, that's not fondling. I've been fondled during a search, once... it sucks, it's traumatizing, and there isn't a darn thing you can do about it because it's your word against the officers. Looking at that video, it was conducted professional and with the least amount of contact required to be reasonably sure the kid wasn't carrying explosives hidden on them.
And your above post's last sentence above is patently false, for such groping isn't necessary to be reasonably sure that the ten year old girl wasn't carrying explosives on her body.
Jan 3, 2016, 6:16 am
#27
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,537
Trust me, but your first sentence above is akin to telling someone who is fondled that what happened to them isn't fondling even when it has been considered just that and found to be unlawful sexual assault in other contexts. If you go do that to a ten year old girl on the playground, what do you think you deserve?
And your above post's last sentence above is patently false, for such groping isn't necessary to be reasonably sure that the ten year old girl wasn't carrying explosives on her body.
And your above post's last sentence above is patently false, for such groping isn't necessary to be reasonably sure that the ten year old girl wasn't carrying explosives on her body.
Jan 3, 2016, 6:35 am
#28
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,526
It's all about YOU, isn't it? No concern for a child who was assaulted by a TSA clerk.
Jan 3, 2016, 7:07 am
#30
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The screener clearly used open palms on the girl's pelvic area, and she clearly had an open plam and thumb planted on the girl's pubic area. No idea what kind of performance she was putting on when she was behind the girl, out of the camera's direct line of sight, but clearly visible to the male TSO who stood and got his morning jollies watching while the screener investigated the girl's back side, including a deep and thorough inside the waistband of her clothing.
Is observing young girls getting groped part of the duties of a male screener?
I've heard about the 'spread your legs wider and then stick one leg out even further' demand, but I've never witnessed it in action. Great retaliatory action against females (and presumably males in kilts) who wear a skirt for no other reason than to inhibit TSA crotch-and-buttocks explorations. I wonder what kind of punitive retaliatory action is SOP for women in skirts who are unable to perform this clever move?
For those who bleat about the long-gone puffer machines: drop it. They were not eliminated because TSA refused to do maintenance. Seriously? Do you think TSOs oil the xray belts and hose out the rubbish bins? Maintenance would have been performed by licensed contractors. The machines were eliminated because they weren't being sold by people with the right corrupt connections with TSA procurement.
Sorry, AllieKat, an open palm pressed on a girl's pubic area constitutes a grope. What she did out of sight of the camera that fascinated the male TSO who stopped dead in his tracks to observe was likely also a grope. If it was a standard maneuver, I doubt if it would have fascinated the male TSO so much.
Is observing young girls getting groped part of the duties of a male screener?
I've heard about the 'spread your legs wider and then stick one leg out even further' demand, but I've never witnessed it in action. Great retaliatory action against females (and presumably males in kilts) who wear a skirt for no other reason than to inhibit TSA crotch-and-buttocks explorations. I wonder what kind of punitive retaliatory action is SOP for women in skirts who are unable to perform this clever move?
For those who bleat about the long-gone puffer machines: drop it. They were not eliminated because TSA refused to do maintenance. Seriously? Do you think TSOs oil the xray belts and hose out the rubbish bins? Maintenance would have been performed by licensed contractors. The machines were eliminated because they weren't being sold by people with the right corrupt connections with TSA procurement.
Sorry, AllieKat, an open palm pressed on a girl's pubic area constitutes a grope. What she did out of sight of the camera that fascinated the male TSO who stopped dead in his tracks to observe was likely also a grope. If it was a standard maneuver, I doubt if it would have fascinated the male TSO so much.