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ID Checks between Sweden and Danish borders

ID Checks between Sweden and Danish borders

Old Dec 8, 2015, 2:55 am
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I'm all for helping out bonafide refugees and for countries living up to their legal obligations related to delivering refuge to refugees/asylum seekers (even after they evacuate the immediate zone of trouble), but it was messed up early on by not beefing up regular channels to manage the situation. And the border control "fixes" are a joke too.

I'm really curious what the border control checking police in Sweden are doing when encountering people without ID on hand who have boarded the train in Sweden. This would get to the question of what legal authority there is for conducting a border control check on people who start their journey in Sweden and never left Swedish territory during the journey. We know that "these are the rules/orders" don't have a lot less room for fudging around when dealing with code-based legal systems.

The way the police could sort of better handle this is to create a hold space for those who come onto the train platform at Hyllie without having come in on the train being checked. But that isn't how they are doing it.

This is a step backwards in better integrating the Oresund region and in making the area economically stronger. And guess who it hurts more. The country mandating the checks between Denmark and Sweden.

Last edited by GUWonder; Dec 8, 2015 at 3:00 am
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Old Dec 8, 2015, 3:55 am
  #17  
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I watched the procedure on the Danish news after the border control (they followed an Afghan saying that he'd like a new life in Europe): if you don't have a passport, the Swedish police will take you to a coach where you'll be shipped to Migrationsverket's centre in Malmo.

Where you go after you get on the bus is nobody's business - saw on the Swedish newspaper that some took a taxi to Emporia to shop (it's amazing that they know) and some said they don't want to stay in the centre. The police said their job is to hand the asylum applicants to that centre and that is. There are still thousands of them running free within Sweden.

Now DK is having trouble because Sweden is pushing all those who came from DK back to DK - apparently their hearts are closed.

I believe that the ones who need help the most are the one who don't even have to mean to "migrate" (it's a big human smuggling industry out there and the EU was definitely encouraged that) - why not put more resources on helping them where they are instead of sending a couple of war planes bombing the place.
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Old Dec 8, 2015, 4:23 am
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Originally Posted by nacho
I watched the procedure on the Danish news after the border control (they followed an Afghan saying that he'd like a new life in Europe): if you don't have a passport, the Swedish police will take you to a coach where you'll be shipped to Migrationsverket's centre in Malmo.

Where you go after you get on the bus is nobody's business - saw on the Swedish newspaper that some took a taxi to Emporia to shop (it's amazing that they know) and some said they don't want to stay in the centre. The police said their job is to hand the asylum applicants to that centre and that is. There are still thousands of them running free within Sweden.
That was the "old" way. The functioning is a bit different now.

Refugees aren't to be treated like prisoners, so free to move they should be in conformance with the laws as they are.

Even poor villagers in the hills of Myanmar/Burma have smart phones that can help them find out where to shop for groceries. So Afghans, Iraqis, Syrians and East Africans doing the same isn't surprising. The closest grocery stores to a major refugee processing/holding center is in the Emporia shopping; and the walking distance from the refugee center to the Emporia shopping mall is a handful of minutes. The ones coming there from further away places have been getting free taxi rides sometimes.

Eating grocery store food is cheaper than going to eat at restaurants -- it is relatively high cost Scandinavia after all.

I've not seen or heard of any passport checks at the largest shopping center within 15 minutes of CPH airport. I'm not sure the police have the legal authority to do that. But I need my passport when crossing the bridge, which isn't new for me. What is new is having to carry my passport anywhere around southern Sweden for intra-Sweden trips because of the haphazard way of ID checking.
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Old Dec 8, 2015, 4:52 am
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Wonder how they are doing it now.

Those I saw on newspaper wanting to go to Emporia was those who didn't like the food provided at the asylum centre and there are also some ate at McDonald's too (really not cheap).

I don't mind that they come, as long as they go back when the situation has improved (what is really ridiculous is that some of these people have a "preferred" country - again EU needs to have a unified standard on refugee treatment). Those got out has more resources and they are very much needed to re-develop their country. In my kids school there are some refugees kids too that are not real refugees. They wanted to get out of their country because they want to have access to better medical system for their children (that's what I was told).
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Old Dec 8, 2015, 5:13 am
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Originally Posted by nacho
Wonder how they are doing it now.

Those I saw on newspaper wanting to go to Emporia was those who didn't like the food provided at the asylum centre and there are also some ate at McDonald's too (really not cheap).

I don't mind that they come, as long as they go back when the situation has improved (what is really ridiculous is that some of these people have a "preferred" country - again EU needs to have a unified standard on refugee treatment). Those got out has more resources and they are very much needed to re-develop their country. In my kids school there are some refugees kids too that are not real refugees. They wanted to get out of their country because they want to have access to better medical system for their children (that's what I was told).
Given the chance for slop food from some "lowest-cost" government contractor or choosing my own food for the same cost, I know where I'd go: shopping. McDonald's in Sweden can be pretty cheap, like 1500 calories for $6.

I use my movement allowances to travel and be where I think is best for me and/or for those for whom I may have a fiduciary or other duty. I would expect the same from most decent people in a position of responsibility.

Given the border controls between Denmark and Sweden, it may be a failure of fiduciary duty to advise companies to locate or grow their European operations in the Oresund region when government is going to behave so fickle as to disrupt staffing/labor flows like this. The border control hassle hitting regional commuters also hits employers who have become habituated to having staff from both sides of the bridge showing up on time and having a reasonable quality of life with a decent work-life balance.

By the way, if taking a SJ train from CPH to Stockholm, the border control checks take place twice: hitting everyone at Hyllie and then again at Stockholm Central if the passengers supposedly look "foreign". But these SJ trains stop at other places too, but aren't as "controlled" at all the interim stops.

Last edited by GUWonder; Dec 8, 2015 at 5:28 am
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Old Dec 8, 2015, 5:47 am
  #21  
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Some of the standard food served may not comply with religious/ethnic preferences, so going to a grocery store may be the only option...@:-)
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Old Dec 8, 2015, 6:05 am
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Originally Posted by oliver2002
Some of the standard food served may not comply with religious/ethnic preferences, so going to a grocery store may be the only option...@:-)
Not much meat being bought at stores by recent refugees at the centers. And just about any other (non-meat) food provided would probably not be a religious-based preference issue.

The "taste" issue? That I would understand. But I'm not sure "ethnic grocery stores" are seeing booming business from the recent influx of refugees -- at least not yet. And the ethnic food sections at the major ICA type grocery stores don't seem to be growing their ethnic food sections this year. And there is a food preparation facilities limitation issue at the largest refugee center closest to the Swedish border check when taking the train from CPH to Sweden.
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Old Dec 8, 2015, 7:30 am
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
By the way, if taking a SJ train from CPH to Stockholm, the border control checks take place twice: hitting everyone at Hyllie and then again at Stockholm Central if the passengers supposedly look "foreign". But these SJ trains stop at other places too, but aren't as "controlled" at all the interim stops.
I guess the logic is that nobody in their right mind would hop off before Stockholm.
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Old Dec 8, 2015, 7:57 am
  #24  
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
Not much meat being bought at stores by recent refugees at the centers. And just about any other (non-meat) food provided would probably not be a religious-based preference issue.
Well, I'm sure the Swedish are sensitive enough not to serve pork as free meals, but if you are served soup and bread or something similar of unknown definition for a week and only stukc to the bread, I'm sure you will head to the next grocery store to buy something that has a label with ingredients on it.
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Old Dec 8, 2015, 7:58 am
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By Odin, I say we do a grocery store in Stockholm:

Originally Posted by Fredrik74
I guess the logic is that nobody in their right mind would hop off before Stockholm.
Of course there is nothing to see and nowhere to go in Sweden except for Stockholm.

Last edited by GUWonder; Dec 8, 2015 at 8:07 am
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Old Dec 8, 2015, 2:39 pm
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What will this do to the story lines in the next season of "The Bridge"? I can't see Saga Noren patiently waiting in a line of cars for an ID check, though it might cut down on the cross-border traffic in dead people.
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Old Dec 8, 2015, 2:58 pm
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Originally Posted by oliver2002
Some of the standard food served may not comply with religious/ethnic preferences, so going to a grocery store may be the only option...@:-)
The fact is that they are not allowed to get out until they are processed by migrationsverket. They were told that they will break the law if they do, but they still go out to "shop".

Originally Posted by Fredrik74
I guess the logic is that nobody in their right mind would hop off before Stockholm.
Of course, remember a group of "migrants" refused to get off the bus at Sundsvall? I'm just shocked that they place demand where they want to live. I thought the whole reason for seeking asylum is to be placed in somewhere safe, no government should give each person a 50 sq. m apartment in Malmo/Stockholm.

Originally Posted by oliver2002
Well, I'm sure the Swedish are sensitive enough not to serve pork as free meals, but if you are served soup and bread or something similar of unknown definition for a week and only stukc to the bread, I'm sure you will head to the next grocery store to buy something that has a label with ingredients on it.
I don't know about asylum centres but I found Swedish dagis/schools are very sensitive about what they serve for lunch. There is always a vegetarian option daily (unless the meal is vegetarian already), of course no pork is ever on the menu, beef is like once in a while. I have no idea if the meat they serve is halal or not.

It doesn't matter how long you have to hang on with bread, but if you step out from that centre you are breaking the law because they don't have a valid visa to enter Sweden - they should never do something illegal. What makes the matter worse is that the police is not doing anything about it - they watched them walk out.
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Old Dec 8, 2015, 7:50 pm
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The governmental and other characters pushing for a legal change to allow for the bridge closure have lost out on that idea and removed it from the table (for now) because they don't want to torpedo the rest of the stuff with which it was to be bundled. A victory, for now at least, but don't be surprised if this pops its ugly head back again. It will be interesting to see what this will mean for the tunnel proposal between Helsingor and Helsingborg.

The Oresundsbro/bridge is critical infrastructure to the economic growth prospects of the region, and yet some characters wanted (and want) to cut off their own nose to spite their own face by pushing for additional governmental bridge closure authority that would just increase uncertainty in the region.

Originally Posted by nacho

I don't know about asylum centres but I found Swedish dagis/schools are very sensitive about what they serve for lunch. There is always a vegetarian option daily (unless the meal is vegetarian already), of course no pork is ever on the menu, beef is like once in a while. I have no idea if the meat they serve is halal or not.
Schools and daycares in Malmo and elsewhere in Skane do buy and serve pork. They certainly pay for it. So of course some of the meat they serve is neither kosher nor halal; even as some is. They do provide substitute meals, if needed, for medical or religious needs purposes.

Originally Posted by nacho
It doesn't matter how long you have to hang on with bread, but if you step out from that centre you are breaking the law because they don't have a valid visa to enter Sweden - they should never do something illegal. What makes the matter worse is that the police is not doing anything about it - they watched them walk out.
Let me guess: the above claim about what is legal and not in Sweden is not based on knowing the laws applicable to the Swedish government when it comes to refugees. It's illegal for Sweden to make it illegal for refugees' presence to be considered illegal in Sweden when the refugee has a bonafide claim to be a refugee. First Sweden would have to prove that the refugee claimant is not a bonafide refugee; and then the government would have to prosecute and convict for a legal determination of illegality. So they generally need no visa to be in Sweden. It's easier for the Swedish government to render illegal a 100-day-staying, visa-less American visitor (without dual citizenship or EU/EEA mobility rights) for not having a visa than it is for the government to render illegal a 100-day-staying, visa-less Syrian whose domiciled residence was Syria. Swedish legal practices for detention, arrest and criminal prosecution, juries, and convictions are rather different than what goes on in places with different legal traditions. Police and prosecutorial discretion is still part of the picture.

Whether or not governments follow their own laws, let's just say I've seen some very creative legal work done by government lawyers and outside legal advisors in various countries when there is a supposed security angle in play.

Last edited by GUWonder; Dec 8, 2015 at 8:22 pm
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Old Dec 9, 2015, 1:40 am
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Those people who walked out were doing something illegal because they haven't been registered as "refugee/asylum seekers" - and therefore they don't have a right to walk around freely in Sweden.

Now Sweden is going for another extreme: imposing permanent ID check for all trains coming from DK. It's amazing how they can do something like that - what's the point of freedom of movement? Now DSB threatens to stop all train traffic across the bridge if Sweden wants to burden them for checking ID on all passengers. This is absolutely crazy and I guess they will also put permanent ID check by the bridge.

The Swedish police is not the friendliest people in this world:
http://www.sydsvenskan.se/skane/poli...or-tjanstefel/

Neither is the Swedish legal system, people can be convicted without sufficient evidence.
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Old Dec 9, 2015, 3:09 am
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Originally Posted by nacho
Those people who walked out were doing something illegal because they haven't been registered as "refugee/asylum seekers" - and therefore they don't have a right to walk around freely in Sweden.

Now Sweden is going for another extreme: imposing permanent ID check for all trains coming from DK. It's amazing how they can do something like that - what's the point of freedom of movement? Now DSB threatens to stop all train traffic across the bridge if Sweden wants to burden them for checking ID on all passengers. This is absolutely crazy and I guess they will also put permanent ID check by the bridge.
You don't need to be a government-registered refugee to be a refugee entitled to the legal protections to which Sweden, along with much of Europe, has contracted itself. Amongst the legal protections for refugees, registered or not: presence without a visa, even while moving, is not a crime. There is a reason the Swedish authorities want to push the ID checking and denial of entry/transport burden onto others, private parties or otherwise.

I'm no fan of the border control checks being implemented like this. Fortunately, I have alternatives; unfortunately, most of them cost me more money and time.

I could go into an extensive discussion about due criticisms of the Swedish justice system and police operations, but that really doesn't have much to do with my crossing this border.

Last edited by GUWonder; Dec 9, 2015 at 3:14 am
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