Lack

Nope, the "dreadful feeling" did the trick.

You didn't know you need proper identification to enter Schengen? How did you end up in Vienna then?

You mean without proper papers right?

Would you say the ones against such profiling would be content if it extended to every single passenger? Think that would make everyone happy?

GUWonder

I said what I meant. They are also going after people with proper papers, if perceived as ethnic minorities.

Racist profiling to give all passengers equally worse treatment to all other passengers on the same route? Not even possible to make that happen on these routes.

That incident mentioned in this thread had nothing to do with needing proper identification to enter Schengen, so the above two questions really have no relevance to the FTer to whom you directed the above questions. That member and his family were already in the Schengen zone and from all indications had proper documents. What many people haven't known is that racist profiling is part of the travel experience for even those with proper documents when traveling intra-Schengen to/via Germany. Some may welcome that racism as being "convenient" or who knows what else, but not all do.

Lack

Very much doubt that's their primary goal.

Giving all passengers worse treatment rather then singling out a minority for the sake of political correctness and not being called racist?

AFAIR, you need proper identification even if traveling intra-Schengen.

GUWonder

Whatever their primary goal, they are engaged in racist profiling that hits admissible ethnic minorities.

Any reason to presupposing, jointly and severally, a false dichotomy between worse treatment for all and worse treatment for just an ethnic minority? That false dichotomy only exists if some want it to exist.

Do you think they are singling out only one ethnic minority? They are hitting a variety of perceived ethnic minorities.

Talk about a canard. Your post seems to be presupposing that the FTer and his family lacked proper documentation for intra-Schengen travel, even as they had proper documentation. Most ethnic minorities traveling intra-Schengen by air have proper documentation for intra-Schengen travel, but that is no justification for racist profiling.

As I know, lots of intra-Schengen travel, cross-border or otherwise, requires no ID. But the proverbial devil is in the details when it comes to that. But the discussion about proper documentation is a canard since the racist profiling at German airports primarily hits ethnic minorities who have proper documentation. Oh the irony of that, and yet some people wonder why the innocent ethnic minorities consider it dreadful to be targeted for worse treatment for no other reason than to be perceived to be an ethnic minority.

Lack

Hard to throw a stone at an airport w/o hitting an ethnic minority.

I mentioned a third way earlier. Is that your pick or do you have your own solution?

I'm bundling all perceived ethnic minorities here into one minority that's being racial profiled for discussion efficiency. Is that racist profiling too?

How could I suppose that, being given information US passports not to mention a signoff by the officer?

I don't have any data in favor or opposing that.

Again, I don't have any data on that, but it might be a fair assumption false positives are and overwhelming majority. But I much prefer that (even if I'd personally affected) over a guilty until proven innocent approach for the whole traveling population like we have with the security theater now.
I'd also wish my life was at such a rosy level that being asked for my passport would warrant a dreadful adjective.

GUWonder

It's apparently very easy to throw a racist profiling stone to hit ethnic minorities at German airports and find people who fancy that. It's also easy to not do so. It's not surprising that some are more willing to have such stones thrown at others as long as they find it "convenient"; and that too is dreadful for plenty.

So move the goal post from a two way split to a three way split. How about another approach that doesn't involve racist profiling?

It's not just one ethnic minority group that is being subjected to this racist profiling "reception". That said, I'll read that first sentence above as a convention of convenience for discussion purposes.

Then why even try to justify the racist profiling? Oh, the racism is "convenient" for some, and just inconvenient for a few?

With or without another false dichotomy choice in the above, your preference is your preference.

Being asked for a passport on arrival into Germany is not one and the same thing as being subjected to racist profiling on arrival into Germany and asked for a passport for no reason other than the racism is the so-called convention of "convenience" in the here and now for the authorities, regardless of the longer term consequence of racist behavior by the authorities.

Lack

I'm all ears!

Yes, that's pretty much the whole point.

You may say I'm a dreamer.

I've spent countless hours at immigration, customs and other various official encounters alike. Pretty good odds I've been profiled based on my race, age, gender, sexual orientation, education, social status at least once of those occasions. I envy you if based on your personal experience you can say being asked for a passport as dreadful.

oliver2002

Border police has to go by some metric to 'check' and police. Since I'm half Indian and German and look somewhat inbetween (ie more middle eastern) I've always piqued the interest of various border guards, mainly because there was an way for Iranians to enter Germany by flying to S.E.Asia and India without a visa, then switching to a stolen EU passport and entering the EU on longhaul flights from there. After being irritated being pulled up for the xth time, I just asked the border guard what the heck was going on... and he explained me why he and his colleagues were always doing a SIS check on my passport and waving thru blonde blue eyed types who show their burgundy passport from afar.

That would match the reason why the above posters son was pulled out of the line. There is also a problem of backpacker types overstaying beyond the 90 days in the EU, thinking this place to be something like work and travel australia. I've had that category getting caught in exit immigration in FRA in front of me in my line.

Dovster

I don't know if this is considered racial profiling on my part or on the part of passport control officials, but whenever I fly into Europe (I don't have an EU passport) I seek out the "All Passports" line with the fewest number of Asians and blacks in it.

I would much prefer to get a longer line which is all white.

Why? Because while Asian and black Americans will go through the line as quickly as I will, it takes passport control much longer to clear those from Third World countries. I much prefer being in a line with 20 whites who will zip through than one with 5 Third Worlders who will take several minutes each.

GUWonder

Border police can use the measure of checking passengers without engaging in racist profiling by using the obvious, including the following: glancing at passports and/or national ID cards, or just briefly asking the passengers to mention citizenship/residency status or otherwise "self-select" for scrutiny. The same sort of thing the German authorities and other border control authorities have done too from time to time without racist profiling.

It's rather interesting that the excuse for these checks on arrival into Germany from Schengen countries are refugees, especially when (pre-EU) treaty-covered refugees still have a legal right to not be prosecuted for entering (or being in) Germany without "papers" -- at least if de Maizière and other German authorities follow the binding legal agreements applicable to their offices and the country.

There are blond-hair-non-brown-eyed Syrian and Iraqi refugees too. Rather interesting how such refugees get skipped over (by the authorities) on arrival when using an EU/Schengen country's passport, all while those who are citizens of Germany or of another Schengen country (and exercising treaty rights as a Schengen country person) get stopped at the gate/jetbridge/passport control for additional checks merely because of perceived "race" when coming off intra-Schengen flights.

About the passport checks, the German border control authorities are anything but special at manually matching faces of passenger with faces on presented ID. I'm pretty sure that they too tend to have worse positive match and negative match results when dealing with individuals who are perceived to be "the other", thus making these checks even more of a joke -- even if hitting up the passport for an electronic lookout search. [The passport visa page check as back-up measure for face-matching failures is poor justification for this current wave of racist profiling at German airports.]

And it's not like the number of ethnic European people from Albania, Kosovo, Russia and the Ukraine heading to the Schengen zone without proper "papers" has dropped to zero; and yet, the free pass on intra-Schengen trips because they are "white". Welcome to racist profiling in action.

Responding to racist profiling happens. If you happen to get in a line full of "white" South African retirees on their annual long-haul holiday to the Schengen area, it may well be slower than if you go in a nearby line full of non-"white" Arab/Armenian/Italian-Brazilians.

I'm certain that at German and Polish airports that non-"white" Americans are on average processed more slowly by border control authorities than "white" Americans or "white" Brazilians at the same. Some of that slowness may be due to passport control authorities having greater difficulty matching faces one way or another when dealing with ethnic minorities with whom they had limited or no exposure during their earliest years of development.

Fabo.sk

Right, so the German authorities should use the obvious measure of looking at your US passports (because they have X-Ray vision implanted as standart when entering the employment, as we all know), and also they should realize that one of the passports in your pocket belongs to another passenger, and failing that, they might ask of your citizenship, because people don't lie.

Do us a favor please, don't travel to EU any more.

PS: I'd like to see your reaction if your son was stopped for questioning, because an elderly white woman is being sought by police, and, well, they shouldn't use race, age or gender to determine whether he can actually be her, right?

GUWonder

The obvious measure is to abide by the spirit and letter of Schengen and not demand ID as a condition to travel intra-Schengen using a racist basis.

Too late to not travel anymore. And even if it weren't, I don't choose to do favors the advocates of racist profiling who are opposed to my traveling when, where and how I please.

Quite clearly you have no clue about me, so try to make up a new scenario.

And quite clearly, the current wave of racist profiling checks on intra-Schengen arrivals into FRA/MUC are not being done in search of an identified individual wanted for a crime, so try to make up a new scenario if wanting to compare proverbial apples even with oranges.

Lack

While it may sometimes seem that way, I'm not sure a regular officer has x-ray eyes to glance at a passport/id stored withing a pocket (with a supervisor perhaps being able to pull that trick when someone else is carrying the document?).
As far as asking I fail to see how that eliminates the racial profiling unless we ask each and every pax or none at all.

Please elaborate, I though that the refuges/immigrants are to be prosecuted ASAP when they enter the Schengen zone?

Wouldn't it be easier if everyone had their citizenship painted on the forehead, right?

While that may be true, I find it as a numbers game. Higher percentage of "ethnic" passengers means a higher chance of language issues or document issues (be it just an additional minute to look for a visa). Not true in each and every scenario, but certainly adds up.

Ha, seems I had the same through as Fabo.sk w/o seeing the second thread page :-). I guess this at least answers my question for alternatives - no checks at all.

GUWonder

Your last sentence above indicates that you actually see some of it, even if you claim not to see how that eliminates the racist profiling on intra-Schengen flights arriving into Germany.

With regard to refugees, that would be a violation of laws accepted by Germany twice after World War 2 and currently enshrined in international law applicable to Germany.

For a hint, try starting from this: http://edition.cnn.com/2015/09/08/wo...ion/index.html

The Visegrád Group in Schengen are bound to the same international laws, but compliance with laws applicable doesn't seem to be the strongest point of those countries. Oh the irony if the Visegrád Group in Schengen were to get booted from Schengen.

Countries are sort of getting there. FRT and other biometrical-based checking of people against stored data.


Yes.

Birds of a feather do flock together.

There are other alternatives, as in checking a certain fraction of people and selecting that fraction based on factors other than "race".

Lack

Help me see the whole picture then. How does arbitrary selection of people to ask for nationality eliminate potential racial profiling compared to arbitrary selection of people to ask for id?

So an immigrant/refugee is untouchable once on German soil?

Yeah, sounds really "humanizing". No more dreadful encounters when you're just a number in a system.

Seems to me that German authorities follow similar logic there.

Great minds think alike :-).