New requirement to swipe passport when exiting the US and Canada
May 25, 2014, 1:10 pm
#31
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"US already collects exit swipes from airline. What is new here is Canada will be doing the same. This info is not exchanged."
There is more to this that is new or is going to be new under this initiative than what you said above. For example, Canada currently doesn't provide CBP with Canadian exit data about US or Canadian citizens and that is to change under this initiative.
There is more to this that is new or is going to be new under this initiative than what you said above. For example, Canada currently doesn't provide CBP with Canadian exit data about US or Canadian citizens and that is to change under this initiative.
What I wrote is my summary of phase III and IV.
I wrote:
US already collects exit swipes from airline. What is new here is Canada will be doing the same. This info is not exchanged.
I wrote:
Both countries will share entry swipes with each other from land border crossings.
What is far from accurate?
May 25, 2014, 2:10 pm
#32
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Phase IV and III are more than your post indicates; and your first post in this thread made a claim that was doubtful in its accuracy:
The scope of the initiative is inflated/overinflated by the governments themselves.
May 25, 2014, 3:27 pm
#33
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New requirement to swipe passport when exiting the US and Canada
I stand by my original comments. Still don't see the "far from accurate" part you are referring to. Perhaps some hard concrete examples?
What is being exchanged is listed in black and white in the links you provided. Any more that may be exchanged beyond what is documented is your speculation. From the links you provided, land entry information will be exchanged. Air entry/exit is not being exchanged in any future phase.
If anything, the article and the title of this thread, are what is far from accurate and that is what I mean by the discussions in this thread overinflating the scope of the initiative because FT members are discussing based on an the article does not accurately report on the initiative to begin with.
Airlines today already swipe passports at checkin today. The only new requirement is that this info will be required to be provided to CBSA when departing from Canada. US already require this.
The title of the thread should really be renamed to "New requirement to swipe passport when exiting Canada by air and CBSA/CBP to exchange land entry data."
If I'm missing something from reading the links you provided, then please quote the relevant passages.
What is being exchanged is listed in black and white in the links you provided. Any more that may be exchanged beyond what is documented is your speculation. From the links you provided, land entry information will be exchanged. Air entry/exit is not being exchanged in any future phase.
If anything, the article and the title of this thread, are what is far from accurate and that is what I mean by the discussions in this thread overinflating the scope of the initiative because FT members are discussing based on an the article does not accurately report on the initiative to begin with.
Airlines today already swipe passports at checkin today. The only new requirement is that this info will be required to be provided to CBSA when departing from Canada. US already require this.
The title of the thread should really be renamed to "New requirement to swipe passport when exiting Canada by air and CBSA/CBP to exchange land entry data."
If I'm missing something from reading the links you provided, then please quote the relevant passages.
May 25, 2014, 3:53 pm
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May 25, 2014, 9:59 pm
#35
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No. Record keeping of exit and entry is not really so foul it's right up there with torture and genocide. A sense of proportion might help people listen to your position instead of dismissing it out of hand given the obvious disconnect above.
May 26, 2014, 5:52 am
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While the infrastructure may not always or even generally be used for torture and genocide, it is still part of the infrastructure for states to physically control the movements -- and harass otherwise -- free people.
May 26, 2014, 7:34 am
#37
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The reason land entry is being exchanged is because there is no land exit capture. By implementing air exit capture, an exchange of air entry/exit is not necessary for the purpose of this initiative.
Last edited by seawolf; May 26, 2014 at 7:58 am
May 26, 2014, 10:33 am
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Please quote which Phase they intend to exchange air entry/exit swipes between CBSA and CBP.
The reason land entry is being exchanged is because there is no land exit capture. By implementing air exit capture, an exchange of air entry/exit is not necessary for the purpose of this initiative.
The reason land entry is being exchanged is because there is no land exit capture. By implementing air exit capture, an exchange of air entry/exit is not necessary for the purpose of this initiative.
The Canadian and US governments want an exchange of air entry/exit and find that it is necessary -- both for the purposes driving this initiative and for this initiative -- even with land entry information for one country ending up equating with land exit information for the other country and that information being exchanged.
Are you unaware of the fact that under the US VWP, time spent in Canada, Mexico, and other localities adjacent to the US has routinely counted towards the maximum of 90 days stay allowed under the program? Air exit data from Canada has a historical relevance for the US enforcement efforts related to admissions to the US under the VWP and not having that data makes it more difficult to enforce the limits against those using the VWP.
Are you unaware of Canadian and US authorities wanting to know where their citizens/residents are flying to in LDCs from the neighboring country for purposes about which the the Canadian and/or US authorities may not fancy or may be ambivalent? Let's just say that flights on the Arab carriers from/to the convenient-to-the-border city airports has had them concerned too and they want that information shared.
Originally Posted by CBP
With respect to air travel, by June 30, 2014, Canada will develop a
system to establish exit, similar to that in the U.S., under which
airlines will be required to submit their passenger manifest information
on outbound international flights.
system to establish exit, similar to that in the U.S., under which
airlines will be required to submit their passenger manifest information
on outbound international flights.
The US is pushing -- and going to expand take from -- the Canadian show. And Canada is going to do as the US wants:
Canada will implement the electronic Travel Authorization (eTA), to improve screening of all visa-exempt foreign nationals, and Interactive Advance Passenger Information (IAPI) to make “board/no-board” decisions on all travellers flying to Canada prior to departure.
These initiatives will mirror measures taken in the U.S. through its Electronic System for Travel Authorization (ESTA) and Advance Passenger Information System Quick Query (AQQ) systems.
These initiatives will mirror measures taken in the U.S. through its Electronic System for Travel Authorization (ESTA) and Advance Passenger Information System Quick Query (AQQ) systems.
From this Canadian government link http://actionplan.gc.ca/en/page/bbg-...er-action-plan the following comes up (with bolding added by me):
Next Steps: To establish coordinated entry and exit systems at the common land border, we commit to develop a system to exchange biographical information on the entry of travellers, including citizens, permanent residents and third-country nationals, such that a record of entry into one country could be considered as a record of an exit from the other. Implementation will be phased in:
By September 30, 2012, we will begin implementation of a pilot project exchanging the data of third-country nationals, permanent residents of Canada and lawful permanent residents in the United States, at two to four automated common land border ports of entry;
By June 30, 2013, we will begin implementation of a program exchanging the data of third-country nationals, permanent residents of Canada and lawful permanent residents in the United States, at all automated common land border ports of entry; and
By June 30, 2014, we will expand the program to include the exchange of data on all travellers at all automated common land border ports of entry.
With respect to air travel, by June 30, 2014, Canada will develop a system to establish exit, similar to that in the United States, under which airlines will be required to submit their passenger manifest information on outbound international flights. Exploratory work will be conducted for future integration of entry and exit information systems for the marine and rail modes. Canada and the United States will share appropriate entry and exit information in these other modes in order to achieve our goals as set out in this action plan.
By September 30, 2012, we will begin implementation of a pilot project exchanging the data of third-country nationals, permanent residents of Canada and lawful permanent residents in the United States, at two to four automated common land border ports of entry;
By June 30, 2013, we will begin implementation of a program exchanging the data of third-country nationals, permanent residents of Canada and lawful permanent residents in the United States, at all automated common land border ports of entry; and
By June 30, 2014, we will expand the program to include the exchange of data on all travellers at all automated common land border ports of entry.
With respect to air travel, by June 30, 2014, Canada will develop a system to establish exit, similar to that in the United States, under which airlines will be required to submit their passenger manifest information on outbound international flights. Exploratory work will be conducted for future integration of entry and exit information systems for the marine and rail modes. Canada and the United States will share appropriate entry and exit information in these other modes in order to achieve our goals as set out in this action plan.
Last edited by GUWonder; May 26, 2014 at 11:40 am
May 26, 2014, 2:50 pm
#39
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Did you not read the links provided above? The public indications are there about the latter phases.
The Canadian and US governments want an exchange of air entry/exit and find that it is necessary -- both for the purposes driving this initiative and for this initiative -- even with land entry information for one country ending up equating with land exit information for the other country and that information being exchanged.
Are you unaware of the fact that under the US VWP, time spent in Canada, Mexico, and other localities adjacent to the US has routinely counted towards the maximum of 90 days stay allowed under the program? Air exit data from Canada has a historical relevance for the US enforcement efforts related to admissions to the US under the VWP and not having that data makes it more difficult to enforce the limits against those using the VWP.
Are you unaware of Canadian and US authorities wanting to know where their citizens/residents are flying to in LDCs from the neighboring country for purposes about which the the Canadian and/or US authorities may not fancy or may be ambivalent? Let's just say that flights on the Arab carriers from/to the convenient-to-the-border city airports has had them concerned too and they want that information shared.
The Canadian and US governments want an exchange of air entry/exit and find that it is necessary -- both for the purposes driving this initiative and for this initiative -- even with land entry information for one country ending up equating with land exit information for the other country and that information being exchanged.
Are you unaware of the fact that under the US VWP, time spent in Canada, Mexico, and other localities adjacent to the US has routinely counted towards the maximum of 90 days stay allowed under the program? Air exit data from Canada has a historical relevance for the US enforcement efforts related to admissions to the US under the VWP and not having that data makes it more difficult to enforce the limits against those using the VWP.
Are you unaware of Canadian and US authorities wanting to know where their citizens/residents are flying to in LDCs from the neighboring country for purposes about which the the Canadian and/or US authorities may not fancy or may be ambivalent? Let's just say that flights on the Arab carriers from/to the convenient-to-the-border city airports has had them concerned too and they want that information shared.
On one side we have a document published by US/Canadian authorities indicating air exit is not being exchanged. On the other side we have your speculation that air exit will be exchanged to enforce VWP. Which is more likely to be "far from accurate?"
Your speculation on using Canadian air exit data to enforce 90-day VWP doesn't even make sense. Today with no air exit exchange, CBP already know they are coming from Canada from pre-clearance. To avoid this today, one would have to travel to a 3rd country. Exchanging air exit with Canada does not change this workaround.
I will give you this. As you indicated they are doing exploratory work for marine and rail modes. That is definitely not in any Phase. Exploratory work is just that; exploratory. Will it be in a future phase? Maybe, maybe not. It is however not in phase today.
Last edited by seawolf; May 26, 2014 at 3:20 pm
May 26, 2014, 5:40 pm
#40
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I asked you multiple times on this thread to quote any passage indicating my description in post 22 is far from accurate. Instead you're now trying to pass your own speculation on multiple topics as evidence that my post 22 is far from accurate (and hoping one of them sticks)!?!? You're grabbing at straws here.
On one side we have a document published by US/Canadian authorities indicating air exit is not being exchanged. On the other side we have your speculation that air exit will be exchanged to enforce VWP. Which is more likely to be "far from accurate?"
Your speculation on using Canadian air exit data to enforce 90-day VWP doesn't even make sense. Today with no air exit exchange, CBP already know they are coming from Canada from pre-clearance. To avoid this today, one would have to travel to a 3rd country. Exchanging air exit with Canada does not change this workaround.
I will give you this. As you indicated they are doing exploratory work for marine and rail modes. That is definitely not in any Phase. Exploratory work is just that; exploratory. Will it be in a future phase? Maybe, maybe not. It is however not in phase today.
On one side we have a document published by US/Canadian authorities indicating air exit is not being exchanged. On the other side we have your speculation that air exit will be exchanged to enforce VWP. Which is more likely to be "far from accurate?"
Your speculation on using Canadian air exit data to enforce 90-day VWP doesn't even make sense. Today with no air exit exchange, CBP already know they are coming from Canada from pre-clearance. To avoid this today, one would have to travel to a 3rd country. Exchanging air exit with Canada does not change this workaround.
I will give you this. As you indicated they are doing exploratory work for marine and rail modes. That is definitely not in any Phase. Exploratory work is just that; exploratory. Will it be in a future phase? Maybe, maybe not. It is however not in phase today.
The air, marine and rail mode monitoring and data exchange is part of the same initiative. These are being phased in, and all the phases involve exploratory work as anyone who works in this area on a policy writing level for years should already know. The air is prioritized higher than the marine and rail mode monitoring and data exchange.
About VWP enforcement, violations of VWP stay limits was and is still done by traveling by air (or land) from the US to Canada and not traveling to a third country (which would reset the VWP stay limit) and yet claiming or acting as if not having violated the VWP stay limit mentioned by me above. This initiative was intended to deal with this and will deal with this too.
About post 22:
Originally Posted by seawolf
A lot of comments here are reading to much into the OP article and as a result the scope of the initiative is overinflated.
Read the following instead.
http://www.actionplan.gc.ca/en/page/...s-early#sect10
US already collects exit swipes from airline. What is new here is Canada will be doing the same. This info is not exchanged.
Both countries will share entry swipes with each other from land border crossings.
Read the following instead.
http://www.actionplan.gc.ca/en/page/...s-early#sect10
US already collects exit swipes from airline. What is new here is Canada will be doing the same. This info is not exchanged.
Both countries will share entry swipes with each other from land border crossings.
You're welcome to read the links provided in this thread to find indications that align perfectly with what I state in this post and that make your above post get characterized as being "far from accurate".
May 26, 2014, 7:39 pm
#41
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Again I don't really know why you are stating things that are not there. I maintain that your comment on using exchange of air data to enforce VWP is your speculation unless you provide reference.
The documents you provided does not mention air exit being exchanged. At first I thought maybe I'm missing something but now I'm beginning to question whether you've actually read the links you provided.
Slide 19 to 21 on your provided link - no mention of air being exchanged; only that Canada will capture exit by air
http://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/fil...esentation.pdf
Your provided link
http://actionplan.gc.ca/en/page/bbg-...er-action-plan
Under the section:
The only passage I've seen even remotely stating that air will be exchanged is what I mentioned in the last paragraph of my last post. Again it is not on the timeline. It may/may not get implemented.
The only conclusion I can come to is that you "shot from the hip" with the "far from accurate" comment and now you unable/unwilling to admit doing so despite the links you provided pointing to the contrary.
All I see right now is a lot of dancing around my request to quote specific passages and attempts to divert attention away from topic by posting about VWP and not a lot of copying and pasting.
The documents you provided does not mention air exit being exchanged. At first I thought maybe I'm missing something but now I'm beginning to question whether you've actually read the links you provided.
Slide 19 to 21 on your provided link - no mention of air being exchanged; only that Canada will capture exit by air
http://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/fil...esentation.pdf
Your provided link
http://actionplan.gc.ca/en/page/bbg-...er-action-plan
Under the section:
Establish and coordinate entry and exit information systems, including a system which permits sharing information so that the record of a land entry into one country can be utilized to establish an exit record from the other.
The only conclusion I can come to is that you "shot from the hip" with the "far from accurate" comment and now you unable/unwilling to admit doing so despite the links you provided pointing to the contrary.
All I see right now is a lot of dancing around my request to quote specific passages and attempts to divert attention away from topic by posting about VWP and not a lot of copying and pasting.
Last edited by seawolf; May 26, 2014 at 7:49 pm
May 26, 2014, 7:46 pm
#42
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I don't bother using my NEXUS card when driving as I'm usually with my wife who isn't a NEXUS member and as a result we go through the regular lines.
I guess I'll just have to wait and see.
May 26, 2014, 10:10 pm
#43
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Again I don't really know why you are stating things that are not there. I maintain that your comment on using exchange of air data to enforce VWP is your speculation unless you provide reference.
The documents you provided does not mention air exit being exchanged. At first I thought maybe I'm missing something but now I'm beginning to question whether you've actually read the links you provided.
Slide 19 to 21 on your provided link - no mention of air being exchanged; only that Canada will capture exit by air
http://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/fil...esentation.pdf
Your provided link
http://actionplan.gc.ca/en/page/bbg-...er-action-plan
Under the section:
The only passage I've seen even remotely stating that air will be exchanged is what I mentioned in the last paragraph of my last post. Again it is not on the timeline. It may/may not get implemented.
The only conclusion I can come to is that you "shot from the hip" with the "far from accurate" comment and now you unable/unwilling to admit doing so despite the links you provided pointing to the contrary.
All I see right now is a lot of dancing around my request to quote specific passages and attempts to divert attention away from topic by posting about VWP and not a lot of copying and pasting.
The documents you provided does not mention air exit being exchanged. At first I thought maybe I'm missing something but now I'm beginning to question whether you've actually read the links you provided.
Slide 19 to 21 on your provided link - no mention of air being exchanged; only that Canada will capture exit by air
http://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/fil...esentation.pdf
Your provided link
http://actionplan.gc.ca/en/page/bbg-...er-action-plan
Under the section:
The only passage I've seen even remotely stating that air will be exchanged is what I mentioned in the last paragraph of my last post. Again it is not on the timeline. It may/may not get implemented.
The only conclusion I can come to is that you "shot from the hip" with the "far from accurate" comment and now you unable/unwilling to admit doing so despite the links you provided pointing to the contrary.
All I see right now is a lot of dancing around my request to quote specific passages and attempts to divert attention away from topic by posting about VWP and not a lot of copying and pasting.
I'm not speculating on this matter at all, whether you believe so or otherwise. That post #22 remains far from accurate as and in the manner I noted and indicated previously. It's likely that your disagreement with me on this matter will continue, and I'm fine with that.
Jun 13, 2014, 3:25 pm
#44
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When I fly between Canada and the US, I use my US passport as required to enter the US and also when I leave to return home, since the US passport info was entered when I booked my ticket - but when I drive to the US to visit friends or relatives I use my US passport to enter and my CDN passport when coming back across the border; I wonder if this will cause problems if/when info is fully exchanged between Canada and the US?
I don't bother using my NEXUS card when driving as I'm usually with my wife who isn't a NEXUS* member and as a result we go through the regular lines.
I guess I'll just have to wait and see.
I don't bother using my NEXUS card when driving as I'm usually with my wife who isn't a NEXUS* member and as a result we go through the regular lines.
I guess I'll just have to wait and see.
*Last time we drove from YVR to Blaine, WA, I think the regular line was 1.5 hours long. We got thru in about 2 minutes (-:
Jul 3, 2014, 8:00 pm
#45
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If you're implying you would drive up to the border, have her exit the vehicle, then drive across using NEXUS while she walks then you should know that's explicitly forbidden by the NEXUS rules.