Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Travel&Dining > Travel Safety/Security > Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate
Reload this Page >

2013 Survey: How Effective is the Transportation Security Administration?

2013 Survey: How Effective is the Transportation Security Administration?

Old Aug 16, 2013, 1:55 am
  #61  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,103
Originally Posted by cbn42

As we established earlier, terrorism is so rare that you can't measure changes in terrorist activity from year to year in any meaningful way.
Of course year-over-year changes can be measured and are measured. Actually, whenever the POTUS is set to go somewhere abroad, we use the measures to determine what security playbook to use with regard to more than just the advance team.

Originally Posted by cbn42
So if you don't look at terrorism, how do you propose to measure the effectiveness of security measures?
Your "if" is not applicable. It would be included.

How about getting back to the basics of WEI-interdiction measures and the costs related to that?
GUWonder is offline  
Old Aug 16, 2013, 11:17 am
  #62  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Marriott or Hilton hot tub with a big drink <glub> Beverage: To-Go Bag DYKWIA: SSSS /rolleyes ☈ Date Night: Costco
Programs: Sea Shell Lounge Platinum, TSA Pre✓ Refusnik Diamond, PWP Gold, FT subset of the subset
Posts: 12,509
Originally Posted by kkmail
Flyer talk has some well spoken writers but as a whole your definitely correct. F.T. fans will argue how terrible the TSA is but when push comes to shove, they realize they are much needed.
I'm sorry, that's not correct. But you've been a wonderful contestant, and we have some lovely parting gifts for you at the top of the jetway. Please exit through the 1L door.

Originally Posted by kkmail
I in fact have had several horrifying experiences with the TSA but I am happy to pay the $5-$10 per ticket, whatever it may be to keep them around.
I have no idea how you can reconcile that.
N965VJ is offline  
Old Aug 16, 2013, 2:01 pm
  #63  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,103
Originally Posted by N965VJ
I have no idea how you can reconcile that.
Stockholm syndrome, or battered spouse syndrome? That may explain somethings on here.
GUWonder is offline  
Old Aug 16, 2013, 3:57 pm
  #64  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: LAS
Posts: 1,279
Originally Posted by cbn42
Yes, but on what criteria?

As we established earlier, terrorism is so rare that you can't measure changes in terrorist activity from year to year in any meaningful way.


It's not easy---or at all meaningful---to calculate the year to year change in the probability we will be hit by a meteor either. Yet somehow, we've have managed to figure out that we shouldn't spend a gazillion dollars building a force field to protect us (even though saving the Earth is a compelling interest). Maybe spending $Billions to grope grannies is not reasonable either. @:-)

It's called risk management. And, in fact, it's pretty easy to do if you take politics out of the equation. Maybe we should have this done by an independent organization to minimize the political BS?
ScatterX is offline  
Old Aug 16, 2013, 4:06 pm
  #65  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: LAS
Posts: 1,279
Originally Posted by kkmail
I in fact have had several horrifying experiences with the TSA but I am happy to pay the $5-$10 per ticket, whatever it may be to keep them around.
Serious question: Where do you draw the line between privacy and safety?

Keep the benefit of safety, whatever it may be, constant. Is it OK for the government to tap your phone, read your mail, search your house, search your car, search your friends car/house, strip search you, etc. at any time they feel like it to maintain this level of safety?
ScatterX is offline  
Old Aug 16, 2013, 7:55 pm
  #66  
KDS
 
Join Date: May 2011
Programs: Delta Diamond Medallion 1MM, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Gold, National Car Executive Elite
Posts: 550
Originally Posted by Spiff
I'd travel even more if TSA were tossed out into the street or into prison where they belong.
As would my family members. Since October 2010, the airlines have not earned thousands of dollars of income that my family has not spent with them because of the TSA -- and won't until the TSA no longer sexually assaults people.
KDS is offline  
Old Aug 17, 2013, 5:47 pm
  #67  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: SAN Diego (Hillcrest); formerly LEXington, KY; still like the nym
Programs: DL Platinum; Marriott Lifetime Platinum; married to Hilton Elite
Posts: 3,027
TSA has nothing to do with stopping terrorists. It is designed to convince the Kettles flying to Orlando that flying is safe.

Watch any local TV interviews on the Thanksgiving Wednesday - it works great.

The collateral damage to the rest of us is noise.
LexPassenger is offline  
Old Aug 18, 2013, 1:37 am
  #68  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Stafford UK
Posts: 12
In general travelling to the US twice a year for the last 5 years I have found most TSA officers to be polite. Where I have an issue is when you have to place everything in the boxes to go through the scanner. Some of those working in that area are not so polite. It maybe the fact some people cause problems through not understanding what they have to do. This is not helped by those with larger carry on baggage than I have as checked in.

Its a gripe of mine that some people have too much carry on.
United57 is offline  
Old Aug 18, 2013, 5:31 am
  #69  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 57,253
Originally Posted by LexPassenger
TSA has nothing to do with stopping terrorists. It is designed to convince the Kettles flying to Orlando that flying is safe.

Watch any local TV interviews on the Thanksgiving Wednesday - it works great.

The collateral damage to the rest of us is noise.
^^ TSA was never about making air travel safer. It is a massive public relations scheme devised by Congress and the Bush WH created to provide the illusion of security, and that your government is doing everything it can to prevent terrorism. The creators know it is a joke, and they know it doesn't provide any material increase in security, but it DOES provide federal jobs, and, more importantly, it gives our "leaders" plausible deniability if there is another aviation-related terrorist attack, so it's never going away.
halls120 is offline  
Old Aug 18, 2013, 10:06 am
  #70  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,103
Originally Posted by halls120
^^ TSA was never about making air travel safer. It is a massive public relations scheme devised by Congress and the Bush WH created to provide the illusion of security, and that your government is doing everything it can to prevent terrorism. The creators know it is a joke, and they know it doesn't provide any material increase in security, but it DOES provide federal jobs, and, more importantly, it gives our "leaders" plausible deniability if there is another aviation-related terrorist attack, so it's never going away.
... and it provides the airlines PR cover in the event of any "security" incidents, which is why the airlines really aren't going to do everything it takes to put the TSA as we know it out of business with airport security screening in the hands of the airport and/or airlines.
GUWonder is offline  
Old Aug 18, 2013, 2:59 pm
  #71  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Nashville, TN
Programs: WN Nothing and spending the half million points from too many flights, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 8,043
Every reported success or accomplishment by the TSA should be followed by one simple question: But at what cost?

The value of an accomplishment can only be fairly judged by weighing it against the cost in time, aggravation, loss of liberty and resources.

One example (made up numbers).

This week the TSA discovered 28 handguns at airport checkpoints around the country. But at what cost? [Insert evaluation of costs here.]
Big difference.
InkUnderNails is offline  
Old Aug 18, 2013, 11:51 pm
  #72  
KDS
 
Join Date: May 2011
Programs: Delta Diamond Medallion 1MM, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Gold, National Car Executive Elite
Posts: 550
Originally Posted by InkUnderNails
Every reported success or accomplishment by the TSA should be followed by one simple question: But at what cost?

The value of an accomplishment can only be fairly judged by weighing it against the cost in time, aggravation, loss of liberty and resources.
Absolutely correct. Once upon a time when I was in local politics, the firefighter union was trying to convince us to go to a full-time department, using the argument that "if only one life were saved, it would be worth the cost."

"What is the value of a life?" they would ask. I had a very simple answer -- how much life insurance do you have on yourself? That is what you think a life is worth.

They didn't agree with my reasoning, but I stand by what I said then. Infinite cost for zero risk is slightly unreasonable.
KDS is offline  
Old Aug 19, 2013, 1:46 am
  #73  
Moderator: Manufactured Spending
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 6,576
Originally Posted by KDS
"What is the value of a life?" they would ask. I had a very simple answer -- how much life insurance do you have on yourself? That is what you think a life is worth.
If you have $500,000 in life insurance and I offered you $600,000 for your life, would you accept it? If life insurance determines the value of life and you were a rational actor, you would gladly give up your life for any amount of money that is greater than your policy.
cbn42 is offline  
Old Aug 19, 2013, 5:40 am
  #74  
KDS
 
Join Date: May 2011
Programs: Delta Diamond Medallion 1MM, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Gold, National Car Executive Elite
Posts: 550
Originally Posted by cbn42
If you have $500,000 in life insurance and I offered you $600,000 for your life, would you accept it? If life insurance determines the value of life and you were a rational actor, you would gladly give up your life for any amount of money that is greater than your policy.
Ha ha.

Ok now that I've recovered from my red-eye flight, allow me to explain the punchline.

You have turned my scenario around and are arguing against a point I didn't make. I did not say, "what is a life worth when I will receive something from you or someone else?" I said, "what is a life worth when you have to pay something for it?"

Offering me something for a life, when I don't have to pay anything concrete for it, is meaningless because the price can always go higher when it's someone else's money. Shoot, look at Detroit, the US government, and various California cities for examples of how "easy" it is to be given something from someone else; there's no "worth" there.

But when I have to spend my money or my capital on something, well, then we see what that thing's worth is to me, because the price has a limit.

When government has "unlimited" money (taken from faceless taxpayers), it's always easy to argue "what's a life worth?" and spend untold amounts of money in extremely inefficient, ineffective, and illegal (my opinon) ways. Ask the AFS people to pay hundreds of dollars (and have it continue to increase) as a fee at the checkpont each time they fly, and suddenly the worth of what is being done will look different to them and to others.

Last edited by KDS; Aug 19, 2013 at 1:06 pm Reason: Added details.
KDS is offline  
Old Aug 19, 2013, 6:48 am
  #75  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: NYC
Programs: DL PM, Marriott Gold, Hertz PC, National Exec
Posts: 6,736
Originally Posted by cbn42
If you have $500,000 in life insurance and I offered you $600,000 for your life, would you accept it? If life insurance determines the value of life and you were a rational actor, you would gladly give up your life for any amount of money that is greater than your policy.
I agree that how much life insurance you carry isn't a good metric. If I had $100MM in the bank, I wouldn't carry any life insurance (except perhaps for tax/estate planning purposes), since I can self-insure (wife and kids would be financially fine if I get hit by a bus).

There's actually robust analysis done on the topic of "what is a life worth." Good summary of recent data points here. Bottom line, seems to be between $5-9MM, for Americans. FAA uses about $6MM.
cestmoi123 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.