Requirement for speaking your name?
Sep 21, 2011, 7:48 pm
#181
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 1,007
I agree that the policy is completely senseless, and does nothing for security. However, I consider it nothing more than a nuisance, and not some grave violation of human rights like being forced into slavery or bussed to another school or whatever. That is what my common sense tells me.
Can you come up with a single example of someone being prevented from boarding a plane by the TSA because they had laryngitis or didn't speak English?
Can you come up with a single example of someone being prevented from boarding a plane by the TSA because they had laryngitis or didn't speak English?
Sep 21, 2011, 7:53 pm
#182
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: LAS
Posts: 1,279
The name game is neither necessary nor effective (you said this yourself). Therefore, IMO, it is unconstitutional and worth the effort to protest against.
YMMV
Sep 21, 2011, 7:53 pm
#183
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: jfk area
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Let's face the facts here. TSA is the worst thing to happen in the name of Security, but the facts are, that we need some sort of Security. The name game, IMO, is the least of the problems.
As I hand my ID & BP over, I immediately state - Last name / First name / Middle initial / Destination airport. Usually there's a slight shock wave, and a moment of silence.
Then I hear, Why are you going to Chicago?
I say "That's Classified"
They say something like, "What do you mean?" or "Classified?????"
I say "When I leave the secure area of my destination airport, it's no ones business what I do or where I go.
and off I go to opt-out. You know the rest.
As I hand my ID & BP over, I immediately state - Last name / First name / Middle initial / Destination airport. Usually there's a slight shock wave, and a moment of silence.
Then I hear, Why are you going to Chicago?
I say "That's Classified"
They say something like, "What do you mean?" or "Classified?????"
I say "When I leave the secure area of my destination airport, it's no ones business what I do or where I go.
and off I go to opt-out. You know the rest.
Sep 21, 2011, 7:59 pm
#184
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 1,007
As another reason to see why this policy is idiotic, see
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/check...l#post17150329
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/check...l#post17150329
Sep 21, 2011, 8:09 pm
#185
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Nashville, TN
Programs: WN Nothing and spending the half million points from too many flights, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 8,043
I view it as an issue of integrity and honesty.
If I look up the information on what is required to enter the screening process I find simply that I need to submit my name and certain personal information to my airline. If that passes, they issue a boarding pass and I must present that to the TDC with a matching government issued ID.
There is no published requirement that I state my name.
There is no published requirement that I give them information about my travel plans.
They tell me what is required and then they change it at a point in which I am committed to the process and can only change my mind at a cost of time and likely money.
This is considered dishonest to the point that it is illegal in business to advertise the condition of a sale and then change those conditions when the customer arrives at the business.
If I enter into a verbal contract with a customer, and I operate on verbal contracts all of the time, and I make additional requirements of my customer to fulfill the contract at the point that I perform the service, I am in breach of my verbal contract and as such have operated unethically at best and illegally at worst.
If I were to call my regular car dealer, the one that has sold me the last six cars I have bought, and they price the car over the phone, if I were to show up at the dealer and they say, of course that is the price, but there are additional options that I will have to buy, what they have done is unethical and likely illegal.
Yet, that is what the TSA does. They state what is required and then they change it. This is unethical and illegal in most situations. Except for the TSA.
If I look up the information on what is required to enter the screening process I find simply that I need to submit my name and certain personal information to my airline. If that passes, they issue a boarding pass and I must present that to the TDC with a matching government issued ID.
There is no published requirement that I state my name.
There is no published requirement that I give them information about my travel plans.
They tell me what is required and then they change it at a point in which I am committed to the process and can only change my mind at a cost of time and likely money.
This is considered dishonest to the point that it is illegal in business to advertise the condition of a sale and then change those conditions when the customer arrives at the business.
If I enter into a verbal contract with a customer, and I operate on verbal contracts all of the time, and I make additional requirements of my customer to fulfill the contract at the point that I perform the service, I am in breach of my verbal contract and as such have operated unethically at best and illegally at worst.
If I were to call my regular car dealer, the one that has sold me the last six cars I have bought, and they price the car over the phone, if I were to show up at the dealer and they say, of course that is the price, but there are additional options that I will have to buy, what they have done is unethical and likely illegal.
Yet, that is what the TSA does. They state what is required and then they change it. This is unethical and illegal in most situations. Except for the TSA.
Sep 21, 2011, 10:04 pm
#186
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: SYD (perenially), GVA (not in a long time)
Programs: QF PS, EK-Gold, Security Theatre Critic
Posts: 6,785
I don't see the right to kiss my husband listed in the Constitution. Yet I have that right.
I don't see the right to hum while I clean the house listed in the Constitution. Yet...
The Bill of Rights, despite the name, is not a comprehensive list of all the rights afforded to persons in the US. It is, instead, a list of limitations upon government; not what citizens MAY do, but what the government must NOT do.
The part you're looking for, where it says you have a right to board a plane without saying your name, is here:
IX. The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
and
X. The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
and
X. The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
Sep 22, 2011, 1:45 am
#187
Moderator: Manufactured Spending
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 6,580
TSA has made it clear that being unable (or unwilling - TSA will assume this) to speak will not necessarily bar a pax from the 'sterile' area.
However, refusing (or being unable) to speak will result in a thorough secondary that may or may not bear a strong resemblance to a punitive action. IIRC, TSA's spokesperson indicated that the secondary would include further questioning (!) by BDO's + comprehensive body and bag searches.
In other words, TSA will assume that a pax who doesn't speak is refusing to speak and will react accordingly.
However, refusing (or being unable) to speak will result in a thorough secondary that may or may not bear a strong resemblance to a punitive action. IIRC, TSA's spokesperson indicated that the secondary would include further questioning (!) by BDO's + comprehensive body and bag searches.
In other words, TSA will assume that a pax who doesn't speak is refusing to speak and will react accordingly.
Sep 22, 2011, 1:51 am
#188
Moderator: Manufactured Spending
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 6,580
Think about it in a different direction.
The "say your name" check doesn't seem to serve any useful purpose, at least to this observer. Which means that the money being spent by the US government in order to perform this useless check is being wasted. In an era in which the US government is $14 trillion in debt, one might argue that fighting against wasteful spending is a legitimate cause.
The "say your name" check doesn't seem to serve any useful purpose, at least to this observer. Which means that the money being spent by the US government in order to perform this useless check is being wasted. In an era in which the US government is $14 trillion in debt, one might argue that fighting against wasteful spending is a legitimate cause.
Sep 22, 2011, 4:36 am
#189
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: LAS
Posts: 1,279
I told a story yesterday of a man being yelled at by TSA (he was deaf) for not saying his name. He was a pre-board and this fiasco delayed boarding for everyone for a couple of minutes. If it weren't for the sane passengers around this individual helping, he would surely have been publicly humiliated even more than he was. He wasn't being allow to board the plane without stating his name. I'm surprised he didn't get a field pat down.
I answered your question. Do you care to discuss the responses and questions put to you about rights and such?
Sep 22, 2011, 4:43 am
#190
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Just answer the question. Picking a fight with TSA (whom I detest) at the airport is absolutely pointless, albeit satisfying. It really is a futile exercise singling yourself out for special attention. The battle is not fought at the airport, it needs to be fought outside it.
Sep 22, 2011, 4:44 am
#191
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: LAS
Posts: 1,279
You have the right to peacefully demonstrate against any waste, fraud, abuse, unjust act, etc. That's one of our rights too. @:-)
For example, roads are often built over people's property. The property owner's have a right and often an obligation to protest. They get their day in court like everyone else. Some sit idle by and let the government that can do no wrong do whatever it wants.
Where the lines are drawn between complaining, peaceful protest, interfering, and violent protest are hotly debated. YMM, of course, V, widely.
Sep 22, 2011, 4:51 am
#192
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: LAS
Posts: 1,279
Just answer the question. Picking a fight with TSA (whom I detest) at the airport is absolutely pointless, albeit satisfying. It really is a futile exercise singling yourself out for special attention. The battle is not fought at the airport, it needs to be fought outside it.
I'll answer the question. Resistance is not futile. I am a free person and will continue to speak out against what I see as government waste and unreasonable actions. The fact that they purposefully retaliate against people who speak their mind is proof that what they are doing is wrong. I do this so that they will notice. If they don't maybe someone around me will. A groundswell also starts with a few that see wrong and try to change it.
Interesting game. Tic tac toe. You want to play too? Just answer my question: How do you propose we stop this madness and what, precisely, have you done about it? The TSA would want you to "go away" and protest somewhere else. Why would you? Please explain.
Sep 22, 2011, 5:33 am
#193
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 360
Sep 22, 2011, 5:54 am
#194
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: LAS
Posts: 1,279
Sep 22, 2011, 6:27 am
#195
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2009
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The battle didn't need to be fought in the back of the bus. Rosa could have simply voted for better representation.
I'll answer the question. Resistance is not futile. I am a free person and will continue to speak out against what I see as government waste and unreasonable actions. The fact that they purposefully retaliate against people who speak their mind is proof that what they are doing is wrong. I do this so that they will notice. If they don't maybe someone around me will. A groundswell also starts with a few that see wrong and try to change it.
Interesting game. Tic tac toe. You want to play too? Just answer my question: How do you propose we stop this madness and what, precisely, have you done about it? The TSA would want you to "go away" and protest somewhere else. Why would you? Please explain.
I'll answer the question. Resistance is not futile. I am a free person and will continue to speak out against what I see as government waste and unreasonable actions. The fact that they purposefully retaliate against people who speak their mind is proof that what they are doing is wrong. I do this so that they will notice. If they don't maybe someone around me will. A groundswell also starts with a few that see wrong and try to change it.
Interesting game. Tic tac toe. You want to play too? Just answer my question: How do you propose we stop this madness and what, precisely, have you done about it? The TSA would want you to "go away" and protest somewhere else. Why would you? Please explain.