bluenotesro

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/09/06/us...html?hpt=us_c2

A little something to toss in the salad bowl. Of course, not all the facts are in and they probably won't be but....

If someone is throwing rocks from ACROSS the Rio Grande, is shooting that person justified?? What about just walking away or getting in the vehicle and driving down the road/trail a few meters? Are the CBP really terrified of rocks?

I understand a gun could have been pulled on them but couldn't this have been handled better?

FB, where are you? How about your 2 cents worth?

Personally, I think it's way over board but....what do I know?

Firebug4

You brought it up, what do you know?

I happen to be very afraid of people throwing rocks at me. Of course, I am betting that you really don't have an idea of what we are really talking about. These are not the rocks that you think about when we were kids throwing rocks at each other. These are large rocks over a pound apiece. They can and will cause serious bodily injury including death.

This particular incident happened at the Rio Grande river. When you read other news accounts of this incident, you will find that the agents were not on the other side of the river. They were in a boat in the middle of the river. Many times the reason that rocks are being thrown at the agents is to move them out of the area so that drug or human smuggling can take place in that area. What are the agents to do? Give the ground to the criminals so that they can continue their illegal activity.

Lets say you are home in your front yard. A group of people come along and want to break into your home. They throw rocks that are between the size of a baseball and a cantaloupe that weight over pound. You run call the police. The police come and also get rocks, that can kill them, thrown at them. What should the police do? Do they get in their cars a move down the block and let the criminals break into your home? Do they do what they are paid to do and stop the criminal act of breaking into your home.

I betting that most people are going to want the police to do their job and stop the criminals from breaking into their home. That being said, law enforcement does not get paid to be needlessly injured or killed. If you are going to assault an law enforcement officer with something that can seriously injure or kill them, they are going to respond to protect themselves, which they are legally justified in doing. Law enforcement doesn't get to just pack up and leave because it gets hard to do the job. Those rocks that are being thrown at them can be every bit of a deadly weapon that a gun can be.

It would be helpful if I could post some pictures but I don't think this forum allows it. I will post a link to a website that may explain a little better than I can and has some visual aids that show what happens when these rocks start flying. The website is private site it is not an official government site. It is a little outdated when it discusses the brand and type of weapons currently carried. I don't necessarily agree with everything that is there, but it does a decent job of describing a rock attack.

FB

http://www.usborderpatrol.com/Border_Patrol412.htm

bluenotesro

I'm not making any judgement calls yet. Just wondering why they couldn't have avoided it. I know it's a volatile area, and maybe the rocks were huge. But cops nowadays are quick on the draw. If they were in the boat why not just motor out of the way and back to the other side? Sit on the other side and watch what they do.

If someone is tossing cantaloupe size rocks at me, I get out of the way. The perps are in Mexico, a sovereign nation. You can prevent them from crossing by sitting on your side of the fence and watching them.

I'm just saying taht cops nowadays are too quick on the trigger. Shoot now, answer questions later. I'm just saying that the agents could have avoided killing the guy AND prevented them from crossing.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Firebug4

What training and experience do you draw this conclusion from? We are talking about rocks that have caused helicopters to crash. We are not talking about folks just trying to cross a border. We are talking about people that are willing to throw objects that can kill people. They do this knowing they are throwing these objects at law enforcement officers that are armed. They know full well what they are doing.

It is interesting that you seem to have no condemnation at all for the individual that was trying to injure another person. What questions did that smuggler ask? Did the smuggler move to another location? No, he did not instead he chose to commit a felony and attack law enforcement officers.

Usually, I can be pretty patient. However, this discussion is not about TSA, entry inspection, or administrative search. This is someone physically trying to cause serious bodily harm to an officer. Quite frankly, you have no idea what you are talking about. I would like to hear what kind of questions you are going to ask while someone is trying to injure or kill you. You don't get to just move out of the way. The agents don't get to just move out of the way. They agents were where they were supposed to be on the US side of the border. They are paid to secure that border. When they are attacked with something that can kill them, they will respond in kind. If they did not before you knew it everyone would be committing felony assault because you know if you just throw rocks at them they go away.

You must know that violent assaults have been on the rise for years on the southern border. It is no joke to have to work there. Of course, since you are so well versed on Law Enforcement tactics perhaps you should change your current career choice. You don't even have to go to the academy you seem to have it all figured out.

I am happy to have this or any other discussion with you. However, I will say it again. Why do people who don't have the benefit of any law enforcement training or experience feel they are qualified to tell other people how to do law enforcement work?. You would not tell a firefighter how to put out fires. You would not tell a contractor how to build a house. You would not tell a clock maker how to make clocks. You can have an opinion but that it is all it is. It is an opinion formed without any actual knowledge of what you are talking about.

You say that you aren't making any judgment calls yet. Really? Did you actual read what you wrote after that sentence. The entire post is a judgment. You go on about what the agents could have done. Were you there? Have you had the training they have? Have you ever been out on the border between the ports of entry? Have you ever had those types of objects thrown at you? What knowledge are you drawing your conclusions from? I betting that it is only what you believe not what you actually know. In that case, you can have your 2 cents back. The officers/agents are much better off following their training in use of force.

I will also point out so far that the courts have agreed that in the event of the type of rock attack we are discussing use of deadly force is justified.

FB

Ari

A general lack of confidence in law enforcement and our criminal justice system nowadays. The old saying about one bad apple spoiling the bunch (except there are many more than one) is probably true in the court of public opinion. The inevitable resulting skepticism leads people to reach conclusions without first considering the evidence or facts. That's why. And sometimes those conclusions are wrong.

OldGoat

Are you suggesting that LEOs should do whatever they want best because they know their professions, and regular citizens do not? That seems extreme, and completely out of line with how things are done in this country.

(I understand your overall point, I'm just trying to better understand the argument you are making above)

Firebug4

I am not suggesting LEO's should do whatever they want. I never said anything even close to that. I don't think carpenter should do whatever they want but I don't tell him how to build a house. I don't think a pilot should do whatever he wants but I don't tell him how to fly a plane. I don't think an accountant should do whatever he wants but I don't tell him how to be an accountant. If someone in these professions makes a mistake we have someone who has just as much training or more in that profession to look at the situation and determine in a mistake was made and why. If a pilot makes a mistake do you want your neighbor next door who is an accountant to look into it. That is the point.

The words I wrote mean exactly what they say nothing less and nothing more. I am suggesting that regular citizens such as the OP, while they are entitled to an opinion, really don't know how to do the job of a law enforcement officer. Yet, they approach discussions such as this one like they do. Further, that a regular citizen, such as the OP, would not presume to imply that they know the other professions I mentioned or any other profession really better than someone who has been educated, trained and has much more experience than the regular citizen (read none for the regular citizen.)

The whole problem is then made worst by comments like the OP made " I am not making any judgments" then the whole rest of the post is exactly that. A judgment made with very little if any knowledge of the subject matter and without even knowing all the facts.

FB

Boggie Dog

Firebug4 seems to think that we citizens shouldn't chime in on the going ons at CBP. I think we have a responsibility as citizens to discuss these things. Given the number of DHS ICE/CBP employees who have been arrested these last several months I think I will disagree with Firebug4.

I have to wonder just how close to Mexico our people are to be in range of a "These are large rocks over a pound apiece" and if it is US policy to engage rock throwers with automatic weapons, firing at people on the other side of the border?

edit to add:

http://www.fedcops.org/2012/09/08/up...l-death-squad/

http://www.federalnewsradio.com/478/...rce-corruption



http://www.fedcops.org/2012/06/10/bo...asked-to-stop/


Just scratching the surface. Do a little reading on the CBP for an eye opener.

nachtnebel

point one, there is an obvious proportionality issue of rocks vs firearms. Point two, by resorting to weapons fire to counter rocks, does it not invite equalization of a sort that would not favor agents exposed in a boat in the middle of a river? Perhaps we are escalating to Swift boats.

Citizens need to be concerned over the behavior of CBP here. Absolutely.

nachtnebel

^^^^^
The CATO Institute publishes an ongoing synopsis of police-gone awry, if you care to be informed about that. Stuff like nine year old girls getting tased at Victoria Secret, etc. So people are increasingly aware of how things can go wrong.

In the case of CBP, where, possibly due to its lack of appropriate vetting of agents since 2005 and the huge influx of new agents since then, you have large numbers of CBP agents---hundreds--in prison or facing charges from anything from murder to beating people, from selling drug sensor maps to actually being part of drug cartels, yes, the rock-throwing/shooting thing looks bad. It might not turn out that way, but for the time being it smells like other crimes that CBP agents have done.

jtodd

Good grief, I can't imagine the trouble myself and other Marines would have been in had we opened fire on unarmed civilians in Iraq for throwing rocks. How cowardly do you have to be to shoot across a national border at unarmed people throwing rocks?!

A proper response would have been to fall back to a safe distance and continue surveillance. If the rocks were that big, a safe distance still allows viewing without binoculars, unless we're talking about supermen throwing rocks.

Lastly, as Americans, we have every right, in fact, it is part of our duty, to question the manners and methods used by government employees to do their public service jobs. Otherwise, this wouldn't be much of a democracy, though it appears some don't like that.

tinman435

This "proportionality" argument is compleate BS!!!
If there is a guy out side you house trying to kill you & he has a big knife, would you want the police to show up armed only with a big knife? Would you want only a sigle police officer to show up?

I doubt that you would.

jerumagrinberga

Really? has any USG-owned or operated helicopter on the border crashed from a hand-thrown(which is what I assume we're talking about here) rock? While I'm not the best thrower, and I know that baseball pitchers can throw at close to 100 miles per hour, could a rock really be fast/big enough to bring down a hovering helicopter?

El Cochinito

I'm somewhat curious: How is the firing of weapons by armed federal officials across the border not akin to an act of war or at least a provocation against La Republica leading to an international incident? Is it OK to get in a cross-border gunfight?

TheOneTheOnly

It is when you're fighting off an invading force.
Though I normally disagree with FireBug4 and hate the cbp and what they've become, I'm in agreement here. The less drug smugglers and illegals we have trying to sneak across the border, or barge their way across the border, the better we'll be. There are still a few good cbp agents out there, and I have no qualms about them returning deadly force, with deadly force.