A pat down that ended my wife up in the ER
Aug 9, 2012, 1:19 pm
#121
Join Date: May 2012
Location: DEN
Posts: 177
I completely agree that you did the right thing by taking her to the ER. I'm glad she was able to get the help she needed.
For everyone saying she shouldn't have flown. I urge you to understand trauma before you cast stones. They very well might have had unremarkable travel, but trauma is tricky and you cannot control all the factors outside a therapist's office (and sometimes inside). She did the brave thing by traveling - which I am in complete support of.
TSA should be much better trained and professional. Actually - skip that- our government and WE should not be so willing to have our freedom and rights stripped from us in the name of security. I'll leave the rest of that rant for some other thread.
For everyone saying she shouldn't have flown. I urge you to understand trauma before you cast stones. They very well might have had unremarkable travel, but trauma is tricky and you cannot control all the factors outside a therapist's office (and sometimes inside). She did the brave thing by traveling - which I am in complete support of.
TSA should be much better trained and professional. Actually - skip that- our government and WE should not be so willing to have our freedom and rights stripped from us in the name of security. I'll leave the rest of that rant for some other thread.
Aug 9, 2012, 1:28 pm
#122
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 331
I'm sorry but there is not a single reason you absolutely have to fly anywhere. If i was told i had to fly somewhere to give one of my kids a kidney then by all means... Short of that... I am 41 and have never stepped foot on a plane and i have no intentions on ever going into an airport or airplane. You all know this. If you can't sit back and think about it and understand that then you need to go back to school! If you choose to get on an airplane... Then deal with it and quit whining. You all sound like a bunch of spoiled little brats. Me me me! I want i want i want! It is seriously disgusting.
Aug 9, 2012, 1:29 pm
#123
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Join Date: Jul 2010
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Here's what the problem is: the TSA agents at the checkpoint were downright lewd to her. I was right there. When I was in Japan, the security agents were professional and *apologetic* about asking me to take off my belt for screening. Had those agents been at FLL, she probably would have been fine. Instead, the TSA agents obviously enjoyed their authority and were harsh in their delivery of what would happen to her. It scared her so much, she went through the backscatter - and then she was patted down anyway!
It's all about delivery. The TSA needs to get their agents to understand that you can't lightly talk about touching private parts in front of some people - there needs to be a better, consistent means of delivery. Not all agents are this bad, but the two agents she interfaced with at FLL were.
Aug 9, 2012, 1:32 pm
#124
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This, to me, is just as obvious as my having to avoid eating anything with peanuts because I am allergic to them.
Aug 9, 2012, 1:34 pm
#125
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: FKB
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Posts: 207
Gotta love when people can't refute an actual point or respond to a question and instead resort to personal attacks.
Just because people say they have the "right" to fly doesn't actually mean they have the right to fly.
To answer your question, the government has the right to restrict free travel when it suits them.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_the_US...ional_security
Sources, several well cited laws that allow the government the right to restrict your travel.
Your turn, tell me how citizens have the "RIGHT" to Fly and how it's not a privilege but a right given to ALL citizens.
I can't wait for your response, this should be good.
Before attacking others you might want to learn the difference between a Right and a Privilege.
Just because people say they have the "right" to fly doesn't actually mean they have the right to fly.
To answer your question, the government has the right to restrict free travel when it suits them.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_the_US...ional_security
Sources, several well cited laws that allow the government the right to restrict your travel.
Your turn, tell me how citizens have the "RIGHT" to Fly and how it's not a privilege but a right given to ALL citizens.
I can't wait for your response, this should be good.
Before attacking others you might want to learn the difference between a Right and a Privilege.
Of course, my information regarding the non-distinction between depriving someone of a "right" and a "privilege" comes from precedent set forth by the US Supreme Court some 4 decades ago. But it has been a while since I hit the law books, and you appear to be giving the lecture here, so please enlighten us: what is the difference between a "right" and a "privilege"? Please cite your sources, as you did with your previous reference to the prestigious law journal,"Wikianswers".
Aug 9, 2012, 1:35 pm
#126
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It's all about delivery. The TSA needs to get their agents to understand that you can't lightly talk about touching private parts in front of some people - there needs to be a better, consistent means of delivery. Not all agents are this bad, but the two agents she interfaced with at FLL were.
Most women would not have reacted as she did. Of course, most women have also not shared her past experience. Until she can deal with running into other agents like those, she is best off keeping away from airports.
Aug 9, 2012, 1:37 pm
#127
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 28,079
The thing is she has flown many, many times since the incident. She's only ever gone through the metal detector, so this was the first time she's gone through the patdown. She had no idea it would trigger this (I was there, and it was a woman doing the patdown.)
Here's what the problem is: the TSA agents at the checkpoint were downright lewd to her. I was right there. When I was in Japan, the security agents were professional and *apologetic* about asking me to take off my belt for screening. Had those agents been at FLL, she probably would have been fine. Instead, the TSA agents obviously enjoyed their authority and were harsh in their delivery of what would happen to her. It scared her so much, she went through the backscatter - and then she was patted down anyway!
It's all about delivery. The TSA needs to get their agents to understand that you can't lightly talk about touching private parts in front of some people - there needs to be a better, consistent means of delivery. Not all agents are this bad, but the two agents she interfaced with at FLL were.
Here's what the problem is: the TSA agents at the checkpoint were downright lewd to her. I was right there. When I was in Japan, the security agents were professional and *apologetic* about asking me to take off my belt for screening. Had those agents been at FLL, she probably would have been fine. Instead, the TSA agents obviously enjoyed their authority and were harsh in their delivery of what would happen to her. It scared her so much, she went through the backscatter - and then she was patted down anyway!
It's all about delivery. The TSA needs to get their agents to understand that you can't lightly talk about touching private parts in front of some people - there needs to be a better, consistent means of delivery. Not all agents are this bad, but the two agents she interfaced with at FLL were.
The TSA Whole Body Strip Search Machines were placed in airports without compliance with standing federal regulations.
The people at odds with the United States and its laws are not people who travel but TSA and all of its 60,000 or so employees.
It is high time to return to reasonable screening policies. WTMD, HHMD, and ETD for people and then only escalating with cause.
Why can't TSA comply with the United States Administrative Procedures Act?
Aug 9, 2012, 1:39 pm
#128
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: California. USA
Posts: 1,404
I'm sorry but there is not a single reason you absolutely have to fly anywhere. If i was told i had to fly somewhere to give one of my kids a kidney then by all means... Short of that... I am 41 and have never stepped foot on a plane and i have no intentions on ever going into an airport or airplane. You all know this. If you can't sit back and think about it and understand that then you need to go back to school! If you choose to get on an airplane... Then deal with it and quit whining. You all sound like a bunch of spoiled little brats. Me me me! I want i want i want! It is seriously disgusting.
A stranger who have no medical training or customer service.
All that to go to my home country in Europe.
Wake up and smell the roses.
Aug 9, 2012, 1:43 pm
#129
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Join Date: Jul 2010
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Your argument is that she and a percentage of other American's should not fly because the current procedures could cause emotional unrest. My argument is that the procedures should be modified to not necessarily need to exclude a minority population.
So should my wife not be able to go on vacations with me that require flying because she was forcibly raped against her will and is still recovering? Or should there be better intelligence (profiling, background checks) and less invasive ways of admitting someone beyond the checkpoint? I don't think "less invasive" is purely technical (backscatter, MMW, metal detector, etc.) - I think it could also include training agents to be aware that not everyone is wired equally.
Aug 9, 2012, 1:46 pm
#130
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: California. USA
Posts: 1,404
Tell me where the Constitution says we have a right to fly.
Methinks you need to go back to school if you seriously believe that it's a fundamental RIGHT for people to fly.
If so, it's a right only the "rich" are able to engage in because of airfare prices.
By your logic we should offer free airfare for everyone because it's a RIGHT and not a privilege.
The thing is, if the TSA IS violating your rights, then you clearly have recourse right? Millions of travelers have determined that the TSA aren't violating rights or if they are it's in isolated incidents.
If people want to give up their rights for the ability to fly then that's their choice, the day people defend their "rights" is the day the airports sit empty.
The patdown didn't land the wife in the ER, the pills she took along with the stressful situation landed her in the ER. Any number of events could trigger these types of situations, that doesn't mean her rights were violated(if they were consult a lawyer) and that doesn't mean the TSA is responsible for the ER bill.
Methinks you need to go back to school if you seriously believe that it's a fundamental RIGHT for people to fly.
If so, it's a right only the "rich" are able to engage in because of airfare prices.
By your logic we should offer free airfare for everyone because it's a RIGHT and not a privilege.
The thing is, if the TSA IS violating your rights, then you clearly have recourse right? Millions of travelers have determined that the TSA aren't violating rights or if they are it's in isolated incidents.
If people want to give up their rights for the ability to fly then that's their choice, the day people defend their "rights" is the day the airports sit empty.
The patdown didn't land the wife in the ER, the pills she took along with the stressful situation landed her in the ER. Any number of events could trigger these types of situations, that doesn't mean her rights were violated(if they were consult a lawyer) and that doesn't mean the TSA is responsible for the ER bill.
I would never have immigrated here.
I pay for the ticket and I do expect to be treated like a customer. Not a criminal.
Aug 9, 2012, 1:48 pm
#131
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 28,079
I get what you're saying, but here's the way I see it:
Your argument is that she and a percentage of other American's should not fly because the current procedures could cause emotional unrest. My argument is that the procedures should be modified to not necessarily need to exclude a minority population.
So should my wife not be able to go on vacations with me that require flying because she was forcibly raped against her will and is still recovering? Or should there be better intelligence (profiling, background checks) and less invasive ways of admitting someone beyond the checkpoint? I don't think "less invasive" is purely technical (backscatter, MMW, metal detector, etc.) - I think it could also include training agents to be aware that not everyone is wired equally.
Your argument is that she and a percentage of other American's should not fly because the current procedures could cause emotional unrest. My argument is that the procedures should be modified to not necessarily need to exclude a minority population.
So should my wife not be able to go on vacations with me that require flying because she was forcibly raped against her will and is still recovering? Or should there be better intelligence (profiling, background checks) and less invasive ways of admitting someone beyond the checkpoint? I don't think "less invasive" is purely technical (backscatter, MMW, metal detector, etc.) - I think it could also include training agents to be aware that not everyone is wired equally.
People with disabilities are a protected class and must have the same access and ability to use facilities as anyone else. It seems that TSA should try complying with the law, of course we all know that TSA has little concern for being responsible to the citizens and guests of this country.
Aug 9, 2012, 1:51 pm
#132
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: California. USA
Posts: 1,404
This is the OP - I had FlyerTalk change my handle because I realized I was using my full name... my wife is very sensitive to all of this.
When she was admitted, there was a MENTAL HEALTH person on staff at the ER, it's not just surgeons and nurses who work at the ER. We like to think of the ER being a place where people go when they're physically hurt, but the fact is, a lot of these panic attacks (this wasn't "stress") can result in bodily harm and possibly suicide, intentional or accidental. The hospital is a safe haven, where medical staff is there 24/7 to monitor patients. This happened on a Sunday - should I have made an appointment with her psychiatrist and hoped he could fit her in sometime that week?
She's doing better now after a three day stint in the psychiatric ward. She didn't feel safe, and the right thing to do in that situation is to put the patient in a monitored environment.
It's fine to disagree about the role of airport security, but the woman I loved went through living hell the other day. I don't really understand it either, but I do know the TSA experience was the tipping point in all of this. Like you, I was dubious about bringing her to the hospital, but she said "I NEED TO GO TO THE ER. LISTEN TO ME", so I listened. And it was the right thing to do.
When she was admitted, there was a MENTAL HEALTH person on staff at the ER, it's not just surgeons and nurses who work at the ER. We like to think of the ER being a place where people go when they're physically hurt, but the fact is, a lot of these panic attacks (this wasn't "stress") can result in bodily harm and possibly suicide, intentional or accidental. The hospital is a safe haven, where medical staff is there 24/7 to monitor patients. This happened on a Sunday - should I have made an appointment with her psychiatrist and hoped he could fit her in sometime that week?
She's doing better now after a three day stint in the psychiatric ward. She didn't feel safe, and the right thing to do in that situation is to put the patient in a monitored environment.
It's fine to disagree about the role of airport security, but the woman I loved went through living hell the other day. I don't really understand it either, but I do know the TSA experience was the tipping point in all of this. Like you, I was dubious about bringing her to the hospital, but she said "I NEED TO GO TO THE ER. LISTEN TO ME", so I listened. And it was the right thing to do.
You both did the rite thing. Panic attacks are something a lot of people dont understand and/or agree with. I know what they are.
I know what it is. And she did great during what happened.
All the best to her. And I hope you keep fighting for this.
Aug 9, 2012, 1:54 pm
#133
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: California. USA
Posts: 1,404
I don't disagree with a word that you said -- but the fact remains that there are agents like these two (although, to tell the truth, I have not run into any).
Most women would not have reacted as she did. Of course, most women have also not shared her past experience. Until she can deal with running into other agents like those, she is best off keeping away from airports.
Most women would not have reacted as she did. Of course, most women have also not shared her past experience. Until she can deal with running into other agents like those, she is best off keeping away from airports.
I would not have waited with my "thrown up". I would have done it on the spot.
And we all have to fly sometimes for funerals. TSA should not give us more grief.
Aug 9, 2012, 2:06 pm
#134
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Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Finally back in Boston after escaping from New York
Posts: 13,643
There is no TSA at Arundel Mills Mall or Harborplace. There is no TSA at the Udvar-Hazy annex in Dulles. There is no TSA at Oregon Ridge Park when it's packed with thousands of people for fireworks on July 4. And there is no TSA at Walt Disney World.
Why haven't The Terrists opened up with AK's at those crowded venues, without TSA's deterrence factor?
I'll tell you why - because real terrorists are practically non-existent in the US. It has nothing whatsoever to do with TSA's presence.
TSA is a deterrent only to the free and unrestricted travel of law-abiding people. Law-breakers are not deterred by minimum-wage pizza box clerks in the slightest.
More than a decade later and I don't understand why so many people don't understand these points. Ya know what worries me? It's the guy who takes a large backpack on Amtrak, fills it with explosives and waits until the train is under Penn Station. Heck, the terrorist doesn't even have to commit suicide to pull it off.
But hey, it happened on an airplane-that must be the only place it could happen again.
I have but one wish: that every person in the world become math-literate enough to understand that they are far more likely to die in a car accident on the ride to the airport than they are due to terrorist actions. Is that too much?
Mike
Aug 9, 2012, 2:06 pm
#135
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Salish Sea
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Posts: 8,974
