A pat down that ended my wife up in the ER
Aug 6, 2012, 11:44 pm
#31
Join Date: Apr 2009
Programs: SK Eurobonus Silver, DL, AA, AY, US
Posts: 600
I'm definitely no expert in airport security, but I wonder why do they not use the puffer machine on airports instead of the nude-o-scope? I'd imagine less people would be strongly against going through that, and you'd think that plus a "traditional" metal detector (make it the hand held model if you need to do a secondary) would achieve the same level of security they have today.
Of course you can never eliminate the need for a pat down totally if there is a proper reason to suspect you are actually carrying something illegal, but you'd think something like that would eliminate the need for the vast majority of the passengers.
Of course you can never eliminate the need for a pat down totally if there is a proper reason to suspect you are actually carrying something illegal, but you'd think something like that would eliminate the need for the vast majority of the passengers.
Aug 7, 2012, 4:00 am
#32
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Baltimore, MD USA
Programs: Southwest Rapid Rewards. Tha... that's about it.
Posts: 4,331
I'm definitely no expert in airport security, but I wonder why do they not use the puffer machine on airports instead of the nude-o-scope? I'd imagine less people would be strongly against going through that, and you'd think that plus a "traditional" metal detector (make it the hand held model if you need to do a secondary) would achieve the same level of security they have today.
Of course you can never eliminate the need for a pat down totally if there is a proper reason to suspect you are actually carrying something illegal, but you'd think something like that would eliminate the need for the vast majority of the passengers.
Of course you can never eliminate the need for a pat down totally if there is a proper reason to suspect you are actually carrying something illegal, but you'd think something like that would eliminate the need for the vast majority of the passengers.
Likewise, the handheld metal detector wands were retired in October 2010 when the AIT and Enhanced Pat Downs were rolled out, probably as an intentional method of making a full-body rubdown with genital contact the ONLY possible way to resolve anomalies in WTMD and AIT scans.
Aug 7, 2012, 4:41 am
#33
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 18
Complain to TSA here: http://www.tsa.gov/contact/index.shtm
Also complain to your congressman, both your senators, the White House and the airport administration every time TSA tries to force you through a naked body scanner or punishes you for refusing by subjecting you to the groping.
This is our only option for fighting back against an agency that is way out of control.
Also complain to your congressman, both your senators, the White House and the airport administration every time TSA tries to force you through a naked body scanner or punishes you for refusing by subjecting you to the groping.
This is our only option for fighting back against an agency that is way out of control.
Aug 7, 2012, 5:05 am
#34
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,972
Likewise, the handheld metal detector wands were retired in October 2010 when the AIT and Enhanced Pat Downs were rolled out, probably as an intentional method of making a full-body rubdown with genital contact the ONLY possible way to resolve anomalies in WTMD and AIT scans.
Aug 7, 2012, 5:16 am
#35
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Nashville, TN
Programs: WN Nothing and spending the half million points from too many flights, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 8,043
The evidence is everywhere. Talking in the theater. Getting cut off in traffic. Families that walk side by side at a snails pace while others are trying to get around them. People that stop in the jetway rather than waiting until they get in the open area of the waiting area to put on a jacket or adjust their luggage.
We have become the society of the oblivious. The only world that exists is ours.
This extends to the CP. Let's face it, for the vast majority of travelers, some that even post here, the only thing that matters it that they get through the CP and get to their flight, so they will not be late. Everyone else? The heck with them, they just need to suck it up and handle it.
The TSA recognizes this and perpetuates systems that individualize us so that we lose sympathy for those around us. They may not do it purposefully, or maybe they do, it does not matter. It is what their system does.
Here is the oddity. We were only founded as a country by coming together in a common purpose of which one of the primary objectives is individual liberty. We continued for many years to recognize that our individual liberty was guaranteed by the one thing for which we gave up our individuality, the willingness to collectively fight for the lost liberty of others, even at our own individual cost. We recognized that if the least protected in our society could lose a guaranteed liberty, that we could as well. So we fought for them, we fought with them, and we protected our liberty by protecting theirs. We often did this accepting great risk.
We are quickly losing that if it is not lost already. The sad truth is that a vast majority of the people that went through the CP that day and every day, boarded their flight uneventfully and proceeded to their destination. They just really do not care what happened to anyone else in the process. Even if they knew they would not care as it did not happen to them. They survived. That is all that matters.
There are those of us on this forum that have pledged to do what they can to change the process for everyone, even if it involves a varying level of personal risk and cost. That is admirable and it is worthy of being done. Late in life, I am learning the value of our liberty, and I have pledged to fight for it. I am willing to fight for it. I do so by little things like standing up to the officious martinets that inhabit the CP. I look out for my fellow travelers and offer help and provide guidance. Every time I go through the CP. I wait at the exit, slowly putting myself back together, watching for abusive and cruel behavior. I prepare myself to defend the innocent, even though I know it may cost me time and I just might miss my flight.
Is it a big deal? No, it is entirely too little, but it is what I do.
So, while it greatly saddens me about what happened to this person, while I wish that I could do something to lessen the pain, while I regret that I did not have the opportunity to step up and protect them, I also recognize that I am one of the few that cares. That, saddens me even more. As a society we have lost both the desire to care and the wherewithal to do something about it even if we did.
Aug 7, 2012, 5:53 am
#36
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Central IL
Programs: None, no how, no way
Posts: 21
I'm going to try to take a somewhat different position on this thread- because it's like so many other Internet threads I've read that have nothing to do with travel.
1. Taking this discussion to extremes, Godwinning, etc. helps NO ONE. Not the individual affected in the OP, NO ONE. Making statements in forums like this that "I think we can all agree......" are ridiculous. No, we can't all agree on the basis of a thread, at least I can't.
2. Anyone who thinks they have been abused and their rights have been violated should by all means pursue complaints and all other avenues of redress. That CANNOT be done on an Internet forum.
3. As far as our experience (we usually travel by air twice a year or so, and have for around 15 years), we've never seen, heard of, or had anyone in an airport mention any problem with security.
4. A while ago, I read a lengthy thread (not on Flyer Talk) about the alleged abuses of the TSA, and consulted with my brother about this. He has worked for the TSA (at a major airport which will not be named) since about a year after its inception. While he has heard some second or third-hand stories, neither he nor his wife (who also works for TSA in the same airport) has ever been involved in an incident where a passenger evidenced discomfort with the process, or complained about the process.
5. No system is perfect. The TSA was instantly brought into being post-9/11, and for very good reasons. I want them there, and I want them to do their job. They are still finding guns in people's carryons after 11 years, folks. Are there going to be abuses? Yes, and stating that these things shouldn't happen ignores that reality. Our system of law guarantees redress of grievances, and those abuses should be pursued by the persons affected. The rest of us can't do anything. A basic rule of our law system, since the year one, involves "standing to sue." If we personally have not been injured or affected, the court will simply rule that we have no "standing to sue." And the vast majority of people who have a legitimate complaint....never do anything about it. This guarantees the abuses will go unchecked. So- the OP should by all means pursue every avenue open to them. The rest of us should move on.
1. Taking this discussion to extremes, Godwinning, etc. helps NO ONE. Not the individual affected in the OP, NO ONE. Making statements in forums like this that "I think we can all agree......" are ridiculous. No, we can't all agree on the basis of a thread, at least I can't.
2. Anyone who thinks they have been abused and their rights have been violated should by all means pursue complaints and all other avenues of redress. That CANNOT be done on an Internet forum.
3. As far as our experience (we usually travel by air twice a year or so, and have for around 15 years), we've never seen, heard of, or had anyone in an airport mention any problem with security.
4. A while ago, I read a lengthy thread (not on Flyer Talk) about the alleged abuses of the TSA, and consulted with my brother about this. He has worked for the TSA (at a major airport which will not be named) since about a year after its inception. While he has heard some second or third-hand stories, neither he nor his wife (who also works for TSA in the same airport) has ever been involved in an incident where a passenger evidenced discomfort with the process, or complained about the process.
5. No system is perfect. The TSA was instantly brought into being post-9/11, and for very good reasons. I want them there, and I want them to do their job. They are still finding guns in people's carryons after 11 years, folks. Are there going to be abuses? Yes, and stating that these things shouldn't happen ignores that reality. Our system of law guarantees redress of grievances, and those abuses should be pursued by the persons affected. The rest of us can't do anything. A basic rule of our law system, since the year one, involves "standing to sue." If we personally have not been injured or affected, the court will simply rule that we have no "standing to sue." And the vast majority of people who have a legitimate complaint....never do anything about it. This guarantees the abuses will go unchecked. So- the OP should by all means pursue every avenue open to them. The rest of us should move on.
Aug 7, 2012, 5:58 am
#37
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,972
And how many of those guns are actually a threat to the aircraft? There's not a shred of evidence that that number isn't zero. Everybody agrees that the vast majority of such are people that simply forgot to remove their gun from their bag.
Aug 7, 2012, 7:34 am
#38
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 18
rico567 - of course people don't dare speak up while they are being groped or pornoscanned. The TSA has had people arrested on nebulous charges such as disorderly conduct and "interfering with the screening" if they dare to exercise their First Amendment rights. A couple of people have even been arrested for quoting the Fourth Amendment while they were being groped.
TSA exists because of fear and they thrive on it.
TSA exists because of fear and they thrive on it.
Aug 7, 2012, 7:51 am
#39
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
Aug 7, 2012, 8:24 am
#40
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 436
I disagree with almost all of your post, but wanted to comment on this. In my experience (but what do I know? 
), her story will be on Drudge Report by tomorrow. International shaming of the TSA is possibly the best method of complaining we have.
--Jon
), her story will be on Drudge Report by tomorrow. International shaming of the TSA is possibly the best method of complaining we have.--Jon
Aug 7, 2012, 11:16 am
#41
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: SEA
Programs: Delta TDK(or care)WIA, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 1,869
I'm going to try to take a somewhat different position on this thread- because it's like so many other Internet threads I've read that have nothing to do with travel.
1. Taking this discussion to extremes, Godwinning, etc. helps NO ONE. Not the individual affected in the OP, NO ONE. Making statements in forums like this that "I think we can all agree......" are ridiculous. No, we can't all agree on the basis of a thread, at least I can't.
2. Anyone who thinks they have been abused and their rights have been violated should by all means pursue complaints and all other avenues of redress. That CANNOT be done on an Internet forum.
3. As far as our experience (we usually travel by air twice a year or so, and have for around 15 years), we've never seen, heard of, or had anyone in an airport mention any problem with security.
4. A while ago, I read a lengthy thread (not on Flyer Talk) about the alleged abuses of the TSA, and consulted with my brother about this. He has worked for the TSA (at a major airport which will not be named) since about a year after its inception. While he has heard some second or third-hand stories, neither he nor his wife (who also works for TSA in the same airport) has ever been involved in an incident where a passenger evidenced discomfort with the process, or complained about the process.
5. No system is perfect. The TSA was instantly brought into being post-9/11, and for very good reasons. I want them there, and I want them to do their job. They are still finding guns in people's carryons after 11 years, folks. Are there going to be abuses? Yes, and stating that these things shouldn't happen ignores that reality. Our system of law guarantees redress of grievances, and those abuses should be pursued by the persons affected. The rest of us can't do anything. A basic rule of our law system, since the year one, involves "standing to sue." If we personally have not been injured or affected, the court will simply rule that we have no "standing to sue." And the vast majority of people who have a legitimate complaint....never do anything about it. This guarantees the abuses will go unchecked. So- the OP should by all means pursue every avenue open to them. The rest of us should move on.
1. Taking this discussion to extremes, Godwinning, etc. helps NO ONE. Not the individual affected in the OP, NO ONE. Making statements in forums like this that "I think we can all agree......" are ridiculous. No, we can't all agree on the basis of a thread, at least I can't.
2. Anyone who thinks they have been abused and their rights have been violated should by all means pursue complaints and all other avenues of redress. That CANNOT be done on an Internet forum.
3. As far as our experience (we usually travel by air twice a year or so, and have for around 15 years), we've never seen, heard of, or had anyone in an airport mention any problem with security.
4. A while ago, I read a lengthy thread (not on Flyer Talk) about the alleged abuses of the TSA, and consulted with my brother about this. He has worked for the TSA (at a major airport which will not be named) since about a year after its inception. While he has heard some second or third-hand stories, neither he nor his wife (who also works for TSA in the same airport) has ever been involved in an incident where a passenger evidenced discomfort with the process, or complained about the process.
5. No system is perfect. The TSA was instantly brought into being post-9/11, and for very good reasons. I want them there, and I want them to do their job. They are still finding guns in people's carryons after 11 years, folks. Are there going to be abuses? Yes, and stating that these things shouldn't happen ignores that reality. Our system of law guarantees redress of grievances, and those abuses should be pursued by the persons affected. The rest of us can't do anything. A basic rule of our law system, since the year one, involves "standing to sue." If we personally have not been injured or affected, the court will simply rule that we have no "standing to sue." And the vast majority of people who have a legitimate complaint....never do anything about it. This guarantees the abuses will go unchecked. So- the OP should by all means pursue every avenue open to them. The rest of us should move on.
Co na shloightear, feallta, fuar?
Co na ghealtar dh'iarradh uaigh?
Co na thraill fo shail luchd-fuath?
Clis bi bhuam fhir-chlith
Aug 7, 2012, 11:29 am
#42
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: BGM/ PHL
Programs: US (Silver, *A Silver), AA, Starbucks (Gold)
Posts: 2,242
A pat down/ frisk search is what you get when you attend a professional sporting event. 15 seconds to check your arms and legs for concealed weapons and you're on your way.
I was selected for a random frisk search at Heathrow security a few years ago, and it was exactly like what I've gone through at Yankee Stadium.
Aug 7, 2012, 12:02 pm
#43
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Finally back in Boston after escaping from New York
Posts: 13,644
Let's face facts, even unhappy facts -- the TSA is not about to go away...
2. Any politician, be it the president or a member of Congress, who approved the dismantling of the TSA would be putting himself in an extremely precarious position. Today, if there is an attack which involves a terrorist aboard an airplane, the government can say, "We tried everything possible to prevent this." If the TSA is dismantled and there is such an attack, the voters would turn on the politicians who shut it down. It is a very rare politician who will put himself in that position.
2. Any politician, be it the president or a member of Congress, who approved the dismantling of the TSA would be putting himself in an extremely precarious position. Today, if there is an attack which involves a terrorist aboard an airplane, the government can say, "We tried everything possible to prevent this." If the TSA is dismantled and there is such an attack, the voters would turn on the politicians who shut it down. It is a very rare politician who will put himself in that position.
I don't get the impression that Dovster was saying "don't call your congresscritter," or, "the TSA is good," but rather, we're stuck with it, like it or not.
Mike
Aug 7, 2012, 12:07 pm
#44
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: NYC
Programs: AA EXP, SPG Plat, Marriott Silver, HH Gold
Posts: 797
Wow, don't even know where to start. Posts like yours remind me why it's not just the ignorant that allow these abuses and ineffectual, wasteful, and damaging procedures to continue.
For someone that just made this comment, it's ironic that your subsequent comments based on your opinion and limited experience are made in a way that suggests fact.
Glad that you think your 2x a year travel qualifies you to determine whether there are problems with airport security. For those of us who (for better or worse) must travel much more frequently for work (try 80+ times a year), the experience is very likely to be different.
With respect, your brother nor his wife are on the other side. How can they know if passengers experienced discomfort? For every one complaint there are probably dozens more that were just too afraid, or not sure how to lodge a complaint.
This is by far the weakest argument. "No system is perfect" so we should allow a system that is designed to infringe on constitutional rights to continue? We should allow taxpayer money to continue to be spent on machines that don't accomplish jack squat? We should just stand by because we have no standing to sue?
Who said a lawsuit was the only way to effect change? The rest of us standing by because we weren't the direct victim is exactly what allowed other atrocities throughout history to be perpetrated. (and I by no means intend to trivialize past atrocities--but this is where it starts)
Also tell people who were unlawfully detained or locked up in Guantanamo that our system of law guarantees redress of grievances.
1. Taking this discussion to extremes, Godwinning, etc. helps NO ONE. Not the individual affected in the OP, NO ONE. Making statements in forums like this that "I think we can all agree......" are ridiculous. No, we can't all agree on the basis of a thread, at least I can't.
4. A while ago, I read a lengthy thread (not on Flyer Talk) about the alleged abuses of the TSA, and consulted with my brother about this. He has worked for the TSA (at a major airport which will not be named) since about a year after its inception. While he has heard some second or third-hand stories, neither he nor his wife (who also works for TSA in the same airport) has ever been involved in an incident where a passenger evidenced discomfort with the process, or complained about the process.
5. No system is perfect. The TSA was instantly brought into being post-9/11, and for very good reasons. I want them there, and I want them to do their job. They are still finding guns in people's carryons after 11 years, folks. Are there going to be abuses? Yes, and stating that these things shouldn't happen ignores that reality. Our system of law guarantees redress of grievances, and those abuses should be pursued by the persons affected. The rest of us can't do anything. A basic rule of our law system, since the year one, involves "standing to sue." If we personally have not been injured or affected, the court will simply rule that we have no "standing to sue." And the vast majority of people who have a legitimate complaint....never do anything about it. This guarantees the abuses will go unchecked. So- the OP should by all means pursue every avenue open to them. The rest of us should move on.
Who said a lawsuit was the only way to effect change? The rest of us standing by because we weren't the direct victim is exactly what allowed other atrocities throughout history to be perpetrated. (and I by no means intend to trivialize past atrocities--but this is where it starts)
Also tell people who were unlawfully detained or locked up in Guantanamo that our system of law guarantees redress of grievances.
Aug 7, 2012, 3:07 pm
#45
Join Date: May 2007
Location: IAD
Posts: 2,060
rico567 - of course people don't dare speak up while they are being groped or pornoscanned. The TSA has had people arrested on nebulous charges such as disorderly conduct and "interfering with the screening" if they dare to exercise their First Amendment rights. A couple of people have even been arrested for quoting the Fourth Amendment while they were being groped.
TSA exists because of fear and they thrive on it.
TSA exists because of fear and they thrive on it.
Rico567: here's a different question for your brother and his wife who work for TSA and never hear complaints: ask them how many people they see break down in tears or start shaking as they stand there being molested. Based on the many, many stories we've read about here in FT, it seem to happen rather a lot.