JFK incompetence: Flight departs 12:25am Sat, won't let me through on Fri
Apr 11, 2012, 10:00 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NYC
Programs: DL FO
Posts: 668
JFK incompetence: Flight departs 12:25am Sat, won't let me through on Fri
I apologize in advance for both starting a new thread and for the length of this post…
A few weeks ago, I was flying JFK-GEO on DL. The flight’s departure time on the boarding pass was listed as 12:25am Saturday, and the boarding time was listed as 11:45pm Friday. I bet you can already tell where this is going.
I arrive at JFK T3 at about 7:30pm Friday, hoping to spend a few hours in the SkyClub sippin’ whisky. I approach the TDC and hand him my boarding pass and passport. He checks the name, marks my BP, and is about to hand everything back to me when he does a second take and notices the date.
“This flight departs tomorrow. I can’t let you through.” I explain to him that while the flight technically departs tomorrow, it really departs tonight… 25 minutes into the next day. He insists that he can’t let me through. I tell him he’d better get a supervisor, which he does.
A two-striper comes over and asks what’s going on. TDC tells him that my flight departs tomorrow (Saturday). I jump in and explain that this is not the case and that the flight departs tonight (Friday), and that in order for me to meet DL’s requirement that I be present at the gate 45min prior to departure, I need to go through security on Friday. The 2-striper says that I’m too early to access security. I ask him when I can go through. He tells me “an hour or two before departure.” I tell him that’s BS and that he’s just making things up. He gets frustrated and tells me to “calm down and stand over there” and starts to walk off towards the DL ticket counter with my passport and BP.
That’s when I flip my s*** and tell him that he has no right to walk away with my property and that he is incompetent for not understanding that I am allowed to go through security that day. He hands my documents back to me, clearly pissed off, and I proceed to the DL rep working the SkyPriority line to explain the situation. She understands what I’m saying and says “wow, they sure are stupid, huh?” and summons a redcoat.
Redcoat arrives and I explain the situation to him. He also understands what I’m saying. He takes my BP and proceeds to the TDC and briefly speaks to him. He comes back and says “they say that you disrupted the screening process, there’s nothing I can do.” So helpful. That’s when I decide to summon a LEO and call the non-emergency number for the police. The dispatcher says the PAPD will be there shortly.
At that time another redcoat comes over and asks what’s going on. I explain the situation to her. “Why don’t you just go to another checkpoint?” she asks. “The other checkpoints have the cancer boxes activated.” She then asks “Why did you call the cops?” in a very annoyed, very New York tone. I told her I was frustrated and thought it was the best course of action. She asks me again, “but… why did you call the cops?” She was definitely implying that she could have handled the situation herself.
She takes my BP and proceeds to the checkpoint and asks for a supervisor. A three-striper listens to what she’s saying and comes back to speak with me.
“Sir, what’s going on?” the three-striper says. I explained the situation to her and how I thought her staff was incompetent. “They say you were disrupting this screening process.” I tell her that’s BS and that they are just covering their butts as to not look stupid. I asked her why the first supervisor (two-striper) backed up the TDC. “He’s not a supervisor, sir.” “Oh really,” I reply. “Then why did he come over when the TDC called for a supervisor? I hope that he’s reprimanded for impersonating a supervisor.”
“Sir, the TDC is new and needed some assistance. You need to understand that he is new and is learning,” she says.
“How the hell am I supposed to know that he’s new? And why should I care? He should possess basic time-telling skills,” I say.
“Sir, you don’t need to have an attitude.”
“Listen, are we done here? Are you gonna let me through?”
She hesitates but relents with a “yes.”
I profusely thank the DL employees for their exemplary customer service and take note of their names.
I walk past the TDC and proceed through the WTMD without incident. Once on the other side, I ask the 3-striper for a comment card. She replies that they don’t have them. I ask her if she’s sure because checkpoints are supposed to carry them. She gets frustrated by this comment and says “Sir, you are starting to annoy me, I told you we don’t have them.” I look at her nametag, take note of her name, and walk over to the two-striper to take note of his name.
This is where it gets interesting.
I walk over to the monitors to find my departure gate and as I’m about to walk away, the 3-striper comes up to me and says “Sir, please give me your ID and boarding pass.”
“No, thanks,” I reply. “You’re clearly trying to intimidate me,” and I start walking away.
“No thanks!? Ok, we’ll follow you and call the police!”
“You do that,” I snap back. “But I’m gonna make you work for it” and start walking briskly towards the SkyClub in T2. She and 2 other smurfs start chasing me through the terminal. Once I get to the rotunda in T3, I make a quick dash and duck out of sight near one of the vendors. One of the smurfs must have seen me do this because the 3-striper soon finds me.
“Sir, there are no if’s and’s or but’s about this… I need your ID and boarding pass immediately.” I inform her that she has no right to ask for my information past the TDC and that I will not be giving it to her. I start walking towards T2. She tries to instruct another TSO to “hold him here” to which I retort that the TSA has no powers of detention, and I keep walking.
I eventually duck into the T2 SkyClub, which is on the mezzanine level. From there, I can see the cluster of smurfs conversing about what they should do. I tell the front desk agents what had just happened. They applaud me for standing my ground and tell me that they would ask for police presence if the TSA came into the lounge looking for me.
They must have given up because they never did.
A few weeks ago, I was flying JFK-GEO on DL. The flight’s departure time on the boarding pass was listed as 12:25am Saturday, and the boarding time was listed as 11:45pm Friday. I bet you can already tell where this is going.
I arrive at JFK T3 at about 7:30pm Friday, hoping to spend a few hours in the SkyClub sippin’ whisky. I approach the TDC and hand him my boarding pass and passport. He checks the name, marks my BP, and is about to hand everything back to me when he does a second take and notices the date.
“This flight departs tomorrow. I can’t let you through.” I explain to him that while the flight technically departs tomorrow, it really departs tonight… 25 minutes into the next day. He insists that he can’t let me through. I tell him he’d better get a supervisor, which he does.
A two-striper comes over and asks what’s going on. TDC tells him that my flight departs tomorrow (Saturday). I jump in and explain that this is not the case and that the flight departs tonight (Friday), and that in order for me to meet DL’s requirement that I be present at the gate 45min prior to departure, I need to go through security on Friday. The 2-striper says that I’m too early to access security. I ask him when I can go through. He tells me “an hour or two before departure.” I tell him that’s BS and that he’s just making things up. He gets frustrated and tells me to “calm down and stand over there” and starts to walk off towards the DL ticket counter with my passport and BP.
That’s when I flip my s*** and tell him that he has no right to walk away with my property and that he is incompetent for not understanding that I am allowed to go through security that day. He hands my documents back to me, clearly pissed off, and I proceed to the DL rep working the SkyPriority line to explain the situation. She understands what I’m saying and says “wow, they sure are stupid, huh?” and summons a redcoat.
Redcoat arrives and I explain the situation to him. He also understands what I’m saying. He takes my BP and proceeds to the TDC and briefly speaks to him. He comes back and says “they say that you disrupted the screening process, there’s nothing I can do.” So helpful. That’s when I decide to summon a LEO and call the non-emergency number for the police. The dispatcher says the PAPD will be there shortly.
At that time another redcoat comes over and asks what’s going on. I explain the situation to her. “Why don’t you just go to another checkpoint?” she asks. “The other checkpoints have the cancer boxes activated.” She then asks “Why did you call the cops?” in a very annoyed, very New York tone. I told her I was frustrated and thought it was the best course of action. She asks me again, “but… why did you call the cops?” She was definitely implying that she could have handled the situation herself.
She takes my BP and proceeds to the checkpoint and asks for a supervisor. A three-striper listens to what she’s saying and comes back to speak with me.
“Sir, what’s going on?” the three-striper says. I explained the situation to her and how I thought her staff was incompetent. “They say you were disrupting this screening process.” I tell her that’s BS and that they are just covering their butts as to not look stupid. I asked her why the first supervisor (two-striper) backed up the TDC. “He’s not a supervisor, sir.” “Oh really,” I reply. “Then why did he come over when the TDC called for a supervisor? I hope that he’s reprimanded for impersonating a supervisor.”
“Sir, the TDC is new and needed some assistance. You need to understand that he is new and is learning,” she says.
“How the hell am I supposed to know that he’s new? And why should I care? He should possess basic time-telling skills,” I say.
“Sir, you don’t need to have an attitude.”
“Listen, are we done here? Are you gonna let me through?”
She hesitates but relents with a “yes.”
I profusely thank the DL employees for their exemplary customer service and take note of their names.
I walk past the TDC and proceed through the WTMD without incident. Once on the other side, I ask the 3-striper for a comment card. She replies that they don’t have them. I ask her if she’s sure because checkpoints are supposed to carry them. She gets frustrated by this comment and says “Sir, you are starting to annoy me, I told you we don’t have them.” I look at her nametag, take note of her name, and walk over to the two-striper to take note of his name.
This is where it gets interesting.
I walk over to the monitors to find my departure gate and as I’m about to walk away, the 3-striper comes up to me and says “Sir, please give me your ID and boarding pass.”
“No, thanks,” I reply. “You’re clearly trying to intimidate me,” and I start walking away.
“No thanks!? Ok, we’ll follow you and call the police!”
“You do that,” I snap back. “But I’m gonna make you work for it” and start walking briskly towards the SkyClub in T2. She and 2 other smurfs start chasing me through the terminal. Once I get to the rotunda in T3, I make a quick dash and duck out of sight near one of the vendors. One of the smurfs must have seen me do this because the 3-striper soon finds me.
“Sir, there are no if’s and’s or but’s about this… I need your ID and boarding pass immediately.” I inform her that she has no right to ask for my information past the TDC and that I will not be giving it to her. I start walking towards T2. She tries to instruct another TSO to “hold him here” to which I retort that the TSA has no powers of detention, and I keep walking.
I eventually duck into the T2 SkyClub, which is on the mezzanine level. From there, I can see the cluster of smurfs conversing about what they should do. I tell the front desk agents what had just happened. They applaud me for standing my ground and tell me that they would ask for police presence if the TSA came into the lounge looking for me.
They must have given up because they never did.
Apr 11, 2012, 10:48 am
#3
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 471
Wow, this level of incompetence is stunning, even for the TSA. You should have asked them at what time you would be allowed to pass through the check point. It would have been interesting to see their reaction. Perhaps steam would have started coming out of their ears. 
Last edited by VelvetJones; Apr 11, 2012 at 11:21 am
Apr 11, 2012, 12:18 pm
#5
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 627
Good for you, hoth300! A few years ago, I once submitted and presented my papers to a TDC doing a roaming boarding-line check, but should that happen again, I won't.
If the TS"O"s ever decide to follow me into airside for any reason, I have a simple solution: duck into a bathroom and enter a stall. If the TS"O"s follow me in like petulant middle-school bullies (I f***ing dare them), I will call 911 from my cell phone: "I'm at the Tallahassee Regional Airport in a toilet stall in the men's room near gate B7, and a crowd has formed outside the stall; I'm afraid they're trying to rob me. Please send help". Bonus points if you can duck into an accessible bathroom with a full-height door and walls.
If you're a woman, this would work even better, as a male TS"O" in a women's room would be great media fodder.
Unfortunately, TLH doesn't offer the luxury of slipping into the crowd--I'm surprised there aren't tumbleweeds in the terminal.
This story begs the following questions:
- Has anyone ever been removed from airside and/or forced to miss their flight for refusing to show their papers beyond the TSA moat?
- Do the TS"O"s have any authority to perform any searches airside? If one chases you down to grope you or demand your papers, can you tell them to FO and walk off?
- Extending into airside searches, if the TSA orders your plane back to the gate because they want to grope you, can you refuse to get out of your seat? Better yet, can the pilot tell the TS"O"s to FO? And at what point in the takeoff process does the TSA lose the authority to order the flight back to the gate?
Once again, hoth300, good for you! It sounds like the TDC never memorized either your name or flight information, otherwise, you'd probably find your flight ordered back to the gate.
While pizza-boxers can't do a terminal dump by themselves, I've always wondered if a TS"O" will ever call in a bomb threat to cause a terminal dump. To be quite frank, I would not put this below them, especially if a passenger bruised their ego--or if a TS"O" saw his ex on her way to a flight.
I would not put it below TS"O"s to spend half their shift trying to ruin someone's day. In middle school, a bully decides he doesn't like you, so he devotes all his time to shadowing/harassing you. I could imagine a TS"O" walking away from the moat so they can shadow/harass someone like hoth300, right up until either the passenger boards or a LEO stops them.
Which leads to my final question: how much time to LEOs assigned to airports spend working against the TSA or otherwise dealing with their shenanigans?
On a slightly related note:
- This is why I'm a proponent of 24-hour time. Instead of "12:25am" being confused for 1225, "0025" is completely unambiguous. Of course, good luck drilling this into the pizza-boxers.
- Does the TSA have a rule about how early you're allowed through the moat? Is the rule "only the same day as departure, even if it's after boarding?" If this is so, it means you couldn't go through for your 0030 flight until 0000, and on the flip side, you could go through at 0030 for your 2330 flight--if you can find something to occupy yourself for 23h00m. Any resident current or former TS"O"s who could offer up leaks from the super-duper-double-secret operations manual?
- If TS"O"s ever do decide to chase me into airside, I can do a 1m20s 400-meter dash.
If the TS"O"s ever decide to follow me into airside for any reason, I have a simple solution: duck into a bathroom and enter a stall. If the TS"O"s follow me in like petulant middle-school bullies (I f***ing dare them), I will call 911 from my cell phone: "I'm at the Tallahassee Regional Airport in a toilet stall in the men's room near gate B7, and a crowd has formed outside the stall; I'm afraid they're trying to rob me. Please send help". Bonus points if you can duck into an accessible bathroom with a full-height door and walls.
If you're a woman, this would work even better, as a male TS"O" in a women's room would be great media fodder.
Unfortunately, TLH doesn't offer the luxury of slipping into the crowd--I'm surprised there aren't tumbleweeds in the terminal.
This story begs the following questions:
- Has anyone ever been removed from airside and/or forced to miss their flight for refusing to show their papers beyond the TSA moat?
- Do the TS"O"s have any authority to perform any searches airside? If one chases you down to grope you or demand your papers, can you tell them to FO and walk off?
- Extending into airside searches, if the TSA orders your plane back to the gate because they want to grope you, can you refuse to get out of your seat? Better yet, can the pilot tell the TS"O"s to FO? And at what point in the takeoff process does the TSA lose the authority to order the flight back to the gate?
Once again, hoth300, good for you! It sounds like the TDC never memorized either your name or flight information, otherwise, you'd probably find your flight ordered back to the gate.
While pizza-boxers can't do a terminal dump by themselves, I've always wondered if a TS"O" will ever call in a bomb threat to cause a terminal dump. To be quite frank, I would not put this below them, especially if a passenger bruised their ego--or if a TS"O" saw his ex on her way to a flight.
I would not put it below TS"O"s to spend half their shift trying to ruin someone's day. In middle school, a bully decides he doesn't like you, so he devotes all his time to shadowing/harassing you. I could imagine a TS"O" walking away from the moat so they can shadow/harass someone like hoth300, right up until either the passenger boards or a LEO stops them.
Which leads to my final question: how much time to LEOs assigned to airports spend working against the TSA or otherwise dealing with their shenanigans?
On a slightly related note:
- This is why I'm a proponent of 24-hour time. Instead of "12:25am" being confused for 1225, "0025" is completely unambiguous. Of course, good luck drilling this into the pizza-boxers.
- Does the TSA have a rule about how early you're allowed through the moat? Is the rule "only the same day as departure, even if it's after boarding?" If this is so, it means you couldn't go through for your 0030 flight until 0000, and on the flip side, you could go through at 0030 for your 2330 flight--if you can find something to occupy yourself for 23h00m. Any resident current or former TS"O"s who could offer up leaks from the super-duper-double-secret operations manual?
- If TS"O"s ever do decide to chase me into airside, I can do a 1m20s 400-meter dash.
Last edited by mahohmei; Apr 11, 2012 at 12:25 pm
Apr 11, 2012, 12:39 pm
#6
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: where the chile is hot
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Posts: 41,668
I have been followed into a toilet by a BDO who attempted to continue the grilling while I was in a stall doing my 'business' (yes, it was legitimate 'business').
I believe there are random signs inside the 'sterile' area, at least at some airports, that say something to the effect of 'we reserve the right to search you and your belongings at any time for any reason or no reason at all' - this justifies the gate searches, grilling in the toilet, testing of beverages purchased in the sterile area, demands for ID and/or BP at the gate, on the jetway or on the aircraft - even if a pax has just deplaned and is exiting the airport.
I believe there are random signs inside the 'sterile' area, at least at some airports, that say something to the effect of 'we reserve the right to search you and your belongings at any time for any reason or no reason at all' - this justifies the gate searches, grilling in the toilet, testing of beverages purchased in the sterile area, demands for ID and/or BP at the gate, on the jetway or on the aircraft - even if a pax has just deplaned and is exiting the airport.
Apr 11, 2012, 1:46 pm
#9
Join Date: Aug 2011
Programs: AA EXP, UA Prem Exec, HH Diamond, SPG Gold
Posts: 93
I'm impressed, I likely would have just said yes... the Israeli side of me. I guess the competence level is a little different based on the story told though...
Great story, and are you going to report the issue?
Great story, and are you going to report the issue?
Apr 11, 2012, 1:49 pm
#10
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: LAX
Programs: DL PM | Marriott Gold | Alaska Gold
Posts: 758
You've got to love the stupidity of the TSA.
So, question for you all - what's the best way to avoid the full-body scanners? I can opt-out for rub down...er, I mean pat down, correct? I have no problem giving crap to TSA, just not entirely sure what my rights are on this. All I know is, I am over getting treated like baggage going through security.
So, question for you all - what's the best way to avoid the full-body scanners? I can opt-out for rub down...er, I mean pat down, correct? I have no problem giving crap to TSA, just not entirely sure what my rights are on this. All I know is, I am over getting treated like baggage going through security.
Apr 11, 2012, 2:28 pm
#11
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: DFW
Programs: AS, BA, AA
Posts: 3,670
Government doesn't have rights - only powers. Someone needs to complain and have those signs corrected. Of course, "We have the power to search you and your belongings at any time for any reason..." doesn't seem very friendly, does it.
Apr 11, 2012, 2:28 pm
#12
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 28,110
Wow, this level of incompetence is stunning, even for the TSA. You should have asked them at what time you would be allowed to pass through the check point. It would have been interesting to see their reaction. Perhaps steam would have started coming out of their ears.
Ah, no ...., just typical TSA employee performance.
Apr 11, 2012, 3:08 pm
#13
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: where the chile is hot
Programs: AA,RR,NW,Delta ,UA,CO
Posts: 41,668
No mention of 'rights', IIRC...
Apr 11, 2012, 3:21 pm
#14
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BWI
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Posts: 15,180
Apr 11, 2012, 3:43 pm
#15
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Finally back in Boston after escaping from New York
Posts: 13,644
OP, first, your thread title "JFK incompetence" is redundant. But I'll give you a pass this time. 
TSO: "Hey, has anyone ever heard of zero o'clock? This guy's making up times!"
Mike
- This is why I'm a proponent of 24-hour time. Instead of "12:25am" being confused for 1225, "0025" is completely unambiguous. Of course, good luck drilling this into the pizza-boxers.
Mike