tcm

Switzerland might end its participation in the Visa-Waiver-Program (VWP) amid new demands by the U.S. under the PCSC (Preventing and Combating Serious Crime) initiative where the DHS would have automatic access to biometric data of Swiss citizens. There is currently a heated debate going on in the Swiss media on this topic and calls for retaliatory measures for U.S. citizens are increasing. I believe that the U.S. efforts to centralize personal information in databases, in the name of security, is just as invasive as the use of nudoscopes. Any thoughts on the subject? Hoping for a in-depth border policy debate

Link to a interesting interview on the issue with Swiss National Council member Margret Kiener Nellen in the Swiss daily Tagesanzeiger:

http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...story/18317941 (German)

GUWonder

So is this issue not also one where the US is hitting other VWP countries too, or have they mostly more or less surrendered to the US in this kind of US demand?

That is a rhetorical question in large part.

This issue is also one where the EU seems to be pressuring Switzerland.

bluenotesro

I hope the Swiss absolutely stand their ground and tell the US to go pound sand. If the US insists, then Suisse should pull out of the VWP and make tough demands on US citizens for visas; proof of employment, income, bank records and maybe even a CRC

As a US citizen, I could support the Swiss on this. Someone needs to stand their ground and tell the USG to go *$&^# themselves.

tinman435

^ +1 to Swiss

jtodd

^^

cdn1

Time for the Swiss to slap visa restrictions on the Americans.

win win situation for the swiss

Go Swiss, stand your ground! ^

GUWonder

Everyone should stand together and tell the US Government to pound sand when the US demands that other governments intrude upon the liberty and privacy of persons outside of the US -- and this applies not only to government requests about passport requirements but also banking and other financial account information.

Unfortunately too few in the world are doing that, and instead too many are playing the part of surrender monkey when it comes to US Government demands that intrude upon the privacy and liberties of persons that aren't in the US.

Darkumbra

^

cestmoi123

They're welcome to tell the US to pound sand. If they want their banks to be able to operate in the US, however, there's going to be a cost to the decision to tell the US to pound sand. You can't have your cake and eat it too. I'm perfectly comfortable with the US government saying that entities from countries that facilitate the violation of US laws are not welcome to do business in the US.

GUWonder

Merge

GUWonder

Sounds like an invitation to the kind of practices that make subordinates of citizens and further increase the power of government over people and others at home and abroad.

Do you want the Iranian, Israeli, Saudi and Chinese governments being given the same power over US persons and other parties that the US is demanding of their persons and institutions? Reciprocity part of the picture or just hypocrisy? Now it may be biometric standards/info and financial information transmission but it is going to be Internet habits too. Note that behavior which is legal in the US may well be considered illegal elsewhere; also note that American government and government-licensed units -- including those bailed out by the US government -- facilitate violation of foreign laws too.

The US is trying to subjugate those that don't even violate US law. Not that some care when the approach is that of "prove your innocence"-style DHS nonsense in play at airports in the US.

cestmoi123

Reciprocity is part of the picture only if there's a need for it to be. Swiss financial institutions need access to US financial markets and customers far more than vice versa. Same is true of Saudi oil producers and Chinese manufacturers.

Each country needs to decide whether or not to accede to the demands of another country, recognizing that there are consequences to refusing to do so. If the US refuses to hand over info (or whatever) demanded by the Chinese gov't, then China can refuse to do business with us. That's a risk I'm happy to take.

GUWonder

True for Saudi oil producers? Not at all. There is way more demand for oil beyond the US than there is from the US and plenty of customers to buy Saudi oil if the US doesn't want it. [Even Iran -- with so much of the world against it -- has been able to export its oil at market value for quite some time with little discount if any.]

And the Chinese now export more to the rest of the world excluding the US than they do to the US -- and the US is desperate to keep the Chinese buying US bonds (as demonstrated by the US Treasury secretary repeatedly kissing up to the Chinese government on his visits there).

It's not a risk I'm happy to take, as the governments, jointly or severally, go after individuals and private sector parties since the governments don't really care about your rights or mine or anyone else's but their own. It's a rat race to the bottom in terms of privacy, other civil liberties and sovereignty, and it's not one I fancy since these kind of individuals' rights-busting approaches will bite more and more innocent people over time.

cestmoi123

[QUOTE=GUWonder;18264504]True for Saudi oil producers? Not at all. There is way more demand for oil beyond the US than there is from the US and plenty of customers to buy Saudi oil if the US doesn't want it. [Even Iran -- with so much of the world against it -- has been able to export its oil at market value for quite some time with little discount if any.][/q]

Certainly, and there are lots of oil producers the US can buy from, by the same token. It's a fungible commodity.

[QUOTE=GUWonder;18264504]And the Chinese now export more to the rest of the world excluding the US than they do to the US -- and the US is desperate to keep the Chinese buying US bonds (as demonstrated by the US Treasury secretary repeatedly kissing up to the Chinese government on his visits there).[/q]

Given the portion of Chinese holdings tied up in US Gov't bonds, and China's desperate need to hold down the RMB to support export growth, China needs the US as much as the other way around. The old adage about borrowing $1000, the bank owns you, borrow $1 billion, you own the bank.

Fundamentally, I'm not going to lose much sleep over pressuring Swiss banks to turn over information on US tax evaders. It's not comparable to, say, pressuring Google to turn over information on Chinese dissidents, and let's not make any false equivalences.

nachtnebel

You ignore the fact that China has been hedging its dollar and treasury positions for several years now, and have been stimulating internal consumption to replace the need for US export. All the trade deals with emerging Africa, with South America, particularly Brazil, how were those funded? China has been downtalking the dollar for some time. They are not stupid--why would they downtalk an important asset? Answer--because they're protected from its falling value.

The recent decision to use a US-dominated banking system feature (SWIFT) to wage war on someone--Iran--has accelerated the dumping of the dollar as a trade currency; the BRICS nations are meeting now determined to come up with their own system for trade finance.

The US is soon going to be unable to make demands assuming that the rest of the world will simply comply.