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German Police Say Body Scanners Are Useless

German Police Say Body Scanners Are Useless

Old Aug 12, 2011, 12:05 pm
  #16  
 
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Originally Posted by chollie
What will be particularly interesting to me is what actions the German authorities take going forward.

Will the German authorities act like TSA, disregard any negative findings and install the machines everywhere?

Or will the German authorities decide that eventually finding the 'right' solution is wiser than immediately doing something ill-thought out and ineffective?
I have a secret fear that the first may happen, mainly as a result of giving in to pressure. Even though I have not experienced it on US bound, US carriers, look how other countries have had to provide 'extra' security as the 'request' of the US. And look how flyover data has to be provided...

But I also know that after a very long period of violence, war, and terror, the vague threat of airline terror will hopefully not be enough to override the Basic Law. Then again.... it happened already once this century, at the 'request' of 'friends'.

I won't claim to be smug about this; there is still a chance that we will have to give in eventually, no matter the results of the findings.
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 12:43 pm
  #17  
 
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Originally Posted by chollie
What will be particularly interesting to me is what actions the German authorities take going forward.

Will the German authorities act like TSA, disregard any negative findings and install the machines everywhere?

Or will the German authorities decide that eventually finding the 'right' solution is wiser than immediately doing something ill-thought out and ineffective?

As LuvAirFrance pointed out, the US is a contractor's government, so the most important criteria here is finding a product that will line the right pockets, whether or not it does the job.
As Lincoln resoundingly proclaimed "that this government of the lobbyists, by the lobbyists, for the lobbyists shall long endure".

Something doesn't sound right. My memory might be tricking me since I was born in the post-war 20th century.
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 12:46 pm
  #18  
 
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My interpretation of this report is that ATR has been determined to be a failure because of the high rate of false positives.

One unfortunate conclusion that could be drawn from this is that it is necessary to have the full naked images scrutinized by human screeners.
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 12:48 pm
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As we all know, humans are infallible. Replace a machine with a human if you want to be "mistake free". Right?
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 12:55 pm
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Originally Posted by LuvAirFrance
As we all know, humans are infallible. Replace a machine with a human if you want to be "mistake free". Right?
Certainly not, but I believe that current state-of-the-art computer recognition systems still fall short of the capabilities of the human brain.

Regardless, my point was that the German report says that ATR does not work. One conclusion--one that many of us favor--is that the scanners should be scrapped. I was just pointing out that another possible conclusion is that ATR be scrapped. As to the effectiveness of the naked scanners without ATR, I don't think that the German report addresses that.
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 1:01 pm
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Originally Posted by Bungnoid
Certainly not, but I believe that current state-of-the-art computer recognition systems still fall short of the capabilities of the human brain.

Regardless, my point was that the German report says that ATR does not work. One conclusion--one that many of us favor--is that the scanners should be scrapped. I was just pointing out that another possible conclusion is that ATR be scrapped. As to the effectiveness of the naked scanners without ATR, I don't think that the German report addresses that.
This was an extension of the original test, to test the 'new' software. The original test was due to end this spring, and long before then was deemed a 'dismal failure' with numerous 'teething pains'. With or without the software, it was deemed a failure.
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 1:22 pm
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I wonder if the 35% (false) alarm rate the Germans saw on the NoS is the same in the US. Of course TSA would never publish such numbers. Do about 35% of MMW victims get selected for a patdown?
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 1:37 pm
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Originally Posted by studentff
I wonder if the 35% (false) alarm rate the Germans saw on the NoS is the same in the US. Of course TSA would never publish such numbers. Do about 35% of MMW victims get selected for a patdown?
Every report I ever read said that 70-90% or more required a second check, not 35%. I don't know why that number appeared, unless it is just from the 'extended' portion of the test with the new software.
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 1:37 pm
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Originally Posted by studentff
I wonder if the 35% (false) alarm rate the Germans saw on the NoS is the same in the US. Of course TSA would never publish such numbers. Do about 35% of MMW victims get selected for a patdown?
No. I'm pretty sure the numbers are for the MMW with the addition of the ATR software. (there is no similar software for the BSX machines) This is the very same technology that TSA promises to be rolling out soon in response to privacy concerns. I can't imagine this going well.
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Old Sep 2, 2011, 6:37 pm
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This finally hit the mainstream news a few days ago:

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Old Sep 3, 2011, 10:49 am
  #26  
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Originally Posted by whipster
This finally hit the mainstream news a few days ago:
Yup-and especially if you perspire a lot

The German government halted the full roll out of American body imaging scanners in the nation's airports today after the Interior Minister said the devices sound too many false alarms -- including at times mistaking underarm sweat for dangerous chemicals.......
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Old Sep 3, 2011, 11:27 am
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Originally Posted by whipster
This finally hit the mainstream news a few days ago:
'Mainstream'?? It has been in the German news weekly as in many other news sources around the world. Perhaps the American media just chose to run the story, but it has been in the forefront of the media for well over a year now.
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Old Sep 4, 2011, 11:31 am
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Originally Posted by exbayern
'Mainstream'?? It has been in the German news weekly as in many other news sources around the world. Perhaps the American media just chose to run the story, but it has been in the forefront of the media for well over a year now.
Probably took this long to find a translator....
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Old Sep 6, 2011, 11:33 pm
  #29  
 
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The ProVision "image-free" upgrade, for instance, replaces the 3-D black and white silhouette of the passenger with a "generic, computer-generated outline of a person," according to the TSA.
(emphasis mine)

What's the difference between a "silhouette" and an "outline"?

(from merriam-Webster.com)
Silhouette: (2) The outline of a body viewed as circumscribing a mass.
Outline: (1a) A line that marks the outer limits of an object or figure.
So I guess they are replacing one system with another that is indistinguishable from the last one. Now that's neutral, unbiased reporting for you. You'd think we actually had a government controlled press.
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Old Sep 7, 2011, 12:22 am
  #30  
 
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Originally Posted by gojirasan
(emphasis mine)

What's the difference between a "silhouette" and an "outline"?

(from merriam-Webster.com)

So I guess they are replacing one system with another that is indistinguishable from the last one. Now that's neutral, unbiased reporting for you. You'd think we actually had a government controlled press.
The use of the word "outline" to describe the images produced by the naked scanners has been from the beginning pure propaganda. Based on the few images that have been released, we can see that the L3 MMW system produces a three-dimensional IMAGE of the subject's body, typically rendered in a silvery metallic tone; the Rapiscan x-ray backscatter units produce front and back two-dimensional monochrome IMAGES of the subject's body (with some skeletal penetration in certain areas added in), that sort of resemble black-and-white photographic negatives. Describing either of these as "outlines" is completely disingenuous and misleading, and I wish that TSA and the media had been challenged on this.
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