Disturbing experience with the US Border Patrol, while traveling within the U.S.A.
#1
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Department of Homeland Sincerity
Programs: WN Platinum
Posts: 12,085
Disturbing experience with the US Border Patrol, while traveling within the U.S.A.
I was driving on Highway 8, from Yuma to San Diego, and encountered the US Border patrol between Yuma and San Diego.
The first Border Patrol check point from Yuma heading to San Diego was relatively mundane.
When I encountered the second US Border Patrol in the mountains by San Diego, it was very noteworthy. The check point was set up to merge two traffic lanes into a single lane, and the traffic had backed up significantly in the middle of nowhere, in this border patrol check point location.
When I made it to the border patrol agent, I saw that he had waved pretty much everyone through. When I drove up, he waved me to the right, the secondary check area. I drove over to the right, and then 3-4 Border Patrol agents who were sitting around idly came up to my car, and asked if I was a US Citizen, to which I responded "yes".
Then one of the agents asked if they could look at my luggage. I couldn't believe what was being asked, so I asked him "you want to search my luggage?", to which he replied "yes".
At this point I immediately said "no, you may not look at my luggage." He looked very surprised, and said "we can't look at your luggage?" I affirmed this by saying "no, you may not look at my luggage."
He looked very disturbed, barked something into his walkie talkie. Then he called up a border patrol agent with a K-9 dog, who walked all around my car. The dog found nothing of course, as I am a law abiding US Citizen. The border patrol agent finally relented and let me on my way.
I was extremely disturbed by this encounter. First of all, I am a US Citizen traveling from one US city to another, one US state to another. To have to stop at numerous border patrol checkpoints to affirm that I am a US citizen, and have them look over my car, doesn't feel like it's the right thing to do to US citizens traveling lawfully within our borders.
Secondly, they had no probable cause to delay my travel to the secondary check point. And they absolutely had no right to look at my luggage or do any type of search, as I had done nothing that warranted any suspicion of any type from any law enforcement agency.
I am not hispanic, speak English as a native. But even if I was hispanic, and spoke English with an accent, what does it matter if I was lawfully traveling within the US as a citizen?
I wonder how many people blindly obey and say "yes" when asked if their luggage and belongings could be searched. This does not seem right at all, to treat law abiding US citizens as criminals with check points, secondary checkpoints, requests to search luggage that could be construed as a threat if you do not comply.
The first Border Patrol check point from Yuma heading to San Diego was relatively mundane.
When I encountered the second US Border Patrol in the mountains by San Diego, it was very noteworthy. The check point was set up to merge two traffic lanes into a single lane, and the traffic had backed up significantly in the middle of nowhere, in this border patrol check point location.
When I made it to the border patrol agent, I saw that he had waved pretty much everyone through. When I drove up, he waved me to the right, the secondary check area. I drove over to the right, and then 3-4 Border Patrol agents who were sitting around idly came up to my car, and asked if I was a US Citizen, to which I responded "yes".
Then one of the agents asked if they could look at my luggage. I couldn't believe what was being asked, so I asked him "you want to search my luggage?", to which he replied "yes".
At this point I immediately said "no, you may not look at my luggage." He looked very surprised, and said "we can't look at your luggage?" I affirmed this by saying "no, you may not look at my luggage."
He looked very disturbed, barked something into his walkie talkie. Then he called up a border patrol agent with a K-9 dog, who walked all around my car. The dog found nothing of course, as I am a law abiding US Citizen. The border patrol agent finally relented and let me on my way.
I was extremely disturbed by this encounter. First of all, I am a US Citizen traveling from one US city to another, one US state to another. To have to stop at numerous border patrol checkpoints to affirm that I am a US citizen, and have them look over my car, doesn't feel like it's the right thing to do to US citizens traveling lawfully within our borders.
Secondly, they had no probable cause to delay my travel to the secondary check point. And they absolutely had no right to look at my luggage or do any type of search, as I had done nothing that warranted any suspicion of any type from any law enforcement agency.
I am not hispanic, speak English as a native. But even if I was hispanic, and spoke English with an accent, what does it matter if I was lawfully traveling within the US as a citizen?
I wonder how many people blindly obey and say "yes" when asked if their luggage and belongings could be searched. This does not seem right at all, to treat law abiding US citizens as criminals with check points, secondary checkpoints, requests to search luggage that could be construed as a threat if you do not comply.
#3
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Minneapolis, Hong Kong
Programs: United Airlines 1K MM, Hilton Honors Gold
Posts: 248
I was driving on Highway 8, from Yuma to San Diego, and encountered the US Border patrol between Yuma and San Diego.
The first Border Patrol check point from Yuma heading to San Diego was relatively mundane.
When I encountered the second US Border Patrol in the mountains by San Diego, it was very noteworthy. The check point was set up to merge two traffic lanes into a single lane, and the traffic had backed up significantly in the middle of nowhere, in this border patrol check point location.
When I made it to the border patrol agent, I saw that he had waved pretty much everyone through. When I drove up, he waved me to the right, the secondary check area. I drove over to the right, and then 3-4 Border Patrol agents who were sitting around idly came up to my car, and asked if I was a US Citizen, to which I responded "yes".
Then one of the agents asked if they could look at my luggage. I couldn't believe what was being asked, so I asked him "you want to search my luggage?", to which he replied "yes".
At this point I immediately said "no, you may not look at my luggage." He looked very surprised, and said "we can't look at your luggage?" I affirmed this by saying "no, you may not look at my luggage."
He looked very disturbed, barked something into his walkie talkie. Then he called up a border patrol agent with a K-9 dog, who walked all around my car. The dog found nothing of course, as I am a law abiding US Citizen. The border patrol agent finally relented and let me on my way.
I was extremely disturbed by this encounter. First of all, I am a US Citizen traveling from one US city to another, one US state to another. To have to stop at numerous border patrol checkpoints to affirm that I am a US citizen, and have them look over my car, doesn't feel like it's the right thing to do to US citizens traveling lawfully within our borders.
Secondly, they had no probable cause to delay my travel to the secondary check point. And they absolutely had no right to look at my luggage or do any type of search, as I had done nothing that warranted any suspicion of any type from any law enforcement agency.
I am not hispanic, speak English as a native. But even if I was hispanic, and spoke English with an accent, what does it matter if I was lawfully traveling within the US as a citizen?
I wonder how many people blindly obey and say "yes" when asked if their luggage and belongings could be searched. This does not seem right at all, to treat law abiding US citizens as criminals with check points, secondary checkpoints, requests to search luggage that could be construed as a threat if you do not comply.
The first Border Patrol check point from Yuma heading to San Diego was relatively mundane.
When I encountered the second US Border Patrol in the mountains by San Diego, it was very noteworthy. The check point was set up to merge two traffic lanes into a single lane, and the traffic had backed up significantly in the middle of nowhere, in this border patrol check point location.
When I made it to the border patrol agent, I saw that he had waved pretty much everyone through. When I drove up, he waved me to the right, the secondary check area. I drove over to the right, and then 3-4 Border Patrol agents who were sitting around idly came up to my car, and asked if I was a US Citizen, to which I responded "yes".
Then one of the agents asked if they could look at my luggage. I couldn't believe what was being asked, so I asked him "you want to search my luggage?", to which he replied "yes".
At this point I immediately said "no, you may not look at my luggage." He looked very surprised, and said "we can't look at your luggage?" I affirmed this by saying "no, you may not look at my luggage."
He looked very disturbed, barked something into his walkie talkie. Then he called up a border patrol agent with a K-9 dog, who walked all around my car. The dog found nothing of course, as I am a law abiding US Citizen. The border patrol agent finally relented and let me on my way.
I was extremely disturbed by this encounter. First of all, I am a US Citizen traveling from one US city to another, one US state to another. To have to stop at numerous border patrol checkpoints to affirm that I am a US citizen, and have them look over my car, doesn't feel like it's the right thing to do to US citizens traveling lawfully within our borders.
Secondly, they had no probable cause to delay my travel to the secondary check point. And they absolutely had no right to look at my luggage or do any type of search, as I had done nothing that warranted any suspicion of any type from any law enforcement agency.
I am not hispanic, speak English as a native. But even if I was hispanic, and spoke English with an accent, what does it matter if I was lawfully traveling within the US as a citizen?
I wonder how many people blindly obey and say "yes" when asked if their luggage and belongings could be searched. This does not seem right at all, to treat law abiding US citizens as criminals with check points, secondary checkpoints, requests to search luggage that could be construed as a threat if you do not comply.
#6
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Minneapolis, Hong Kong
Programs: United Airlines 1K MM, Hilton Honors Gold
Posts: 248
If the dog alerted the handler to a problem, that's a different story. Then there is a clearly articulate reason for a search. Fishing for something is not.
#8
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 118
Furthermore, is there a standard alert that the dogs are trained to make? What is it? Would a civilian recognize it? If the handler tells you that the dog alerted, but you didn't notice anything, what do you do? Dispute the claim?
The point is that the K-9 thing is a farce, because the handlers can generate an alert and get their search if they are so inclined.
#9
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Minneapolis, Hong Kong
Programs: United Airlines 1K MM, Hilton Honors Gold
Posts: 248
I read about a study recently where it was reported that the dogs actually look to their handlers for cues--the dogs are trying to read the handlers' wishes and give them what they want. That being the case, it would be trivial for an unscrupulous handler to fabricate an alert.
Furthermore, is there a standard alert that the dogs are trained to make? What is it? Would a civilian recognize it? If the handler tells you that the dog alerted, but you didn't notice anything, what do you do? Dispute the claim?
The point is that the K-9 thing is a farce, because the handlers can generate an alert and get their search if they are so inclined.
Furthermore, is there a standard alert that the dogs are trained to make? What is it? Would a civilian recognize it? If the handler tells you that the dog alerted, but you didn't notice anything, what do you do? Dispute the claim?
The point is that the K-9 thing is a farce, because the handlers can generate an alert and get their search if they are so inclined.
#10
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: jfk area
Programs: AA platinum; 2MM AA, Delta Diamond, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 10,291
I am an ACLU member; if I were in the same situation as OP, and refused the search--would showing the CBP person my membership card provoke him more or would he be more tolerant of my refusal.
#11
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: here and there
Programs: EB*G, UA ex1K
Posts: 570
I read about a study recently where it was reported that the dogs actually look to their handlers for cues--the dogs are trying to read the handlers' wishes and give them what they want. That being the case, it would be trivial for an unscrupulous handler to fabricate an alert.
Furthermore, is there a standard alert that the dogs are trained to make? What is it? Would a civilian recognize it? If the handler tells you that the dog alerted, but you didn't notice anything, what do you do? Dispute the claim?
The point is that the K-9 thing is a farce, because the handlers can generate an alert and get their search if they are so inclined.
Furthermore, is there a standard alert that the dogs are trained to make? What is it? Would a civilian recognize it? If the handler tells you that the dog alerted, but you didn't notice anything, what do you do? Dispute the claim?
The point is that the K-9 thing is a farce, because the handlers can generate an alert and get their search if they are so inclined.
IIRC, it was an exercise searching for explosives in a building. When the experimenters put up signs saying where the target and false positives (meat) were located, it significantly affected the dogs' detection ability, even though dogs obviously can't read and their handlers can. That is, the handlers were (unintentionally) cuing the dogs.
This doesn't necessarily make K-9 a farce - it may mean that part of what the dogs do is to amplify the handler's intelligence and intuition about searching for hidden explosives.
The problem is that this leads to gray areas, where a dog might be cued by a handler's "knowledge" that some individual or ethnic group etc, is a problem. The point is that a K-9 isn't a totally objective mechanical object and its responses may reflect -- even unintentionally -- the racial or other prejudices of its handler.
#13
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 142
I do recognize that the courts have given leeway on stops like these; however, am I to presume that they allowed the dog to search simply because the OP only said no to a search of their luggage - and not the car? i.e. They took the absence of a refusal to be an approval - even though the question was never asked?
#14
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 142
#15
In Memoriam
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 361
While I'm sure they do intentionally stop a number of people to pad their stats trying to preclude racial discrimination charges, the plain fact is that a referral to secondary, either at a suspicion-less checkpoint or at a border is statistically less accurate at producing evidence of a crime than is a coin toss.