Whole Body Scanners Opt Out Stories [merged]
Nov 12, 2010, 10:12 am
#661
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BWI
Programs: AA Gold, HH Diamond, National Emerald Executive, TSA Disparager Gold
Posts: 15,180
Cityboi, I haven't forgotten anything about 11 September but you've obviously forgotten, if you ever really understood in the first place, what freedom and liberty are all about. You sound like you are so concerned about your safety and security that you are willing to give up my freedom and constitutional rights along with your own in the quest to feel more secure. What was it Ben Franklin said, let me see.....Ah yes, "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
I wear a uniform every day and am in a dry, sandy place right now, away from my family. I've been in almost 20 years and I didn't join the military and come all the way over here to turn around and be treated like a criminal when I fly in my own country. Too many US military personnel have died over the past 235 years establishing and defending the freedom and rights you can freely enjoy to just throw them away like you are proposing. I know people who have died in service to our nation and you dare to throw that freedom away like so much garbage? How dare you!
You need to wake up, pull your head out of your fourth point of contact and see what's going on. Stop feeling, and think! Look what's happening all around you. This is NOT what America is all about. These virtual strip search machines and gropes are an outrage and if people like you go along with it, things will continue to get worse.
Oh and by the way, what I expect from my country is freedom. Nothing more, nothing less. What's going on with the TSA, the strip search machines and the gropes does not belong in a nation established because of the desire for personal freedom. I don't expect the government to take care of all of my needs. I take care of myself and my family, with God's help of course. I am responsible for me and mine, not the government.
I wear a uniform every day and am in a dry, sandy place right now, away from my family. I've been in almost 20 years and I didn't join the military and come all the way over here to turn around and be treated like a criminal when I fly in my own country. Too many US military personnel have died over the past 235 years establishing and defending the freedom and rights you can freely enjoy to just throw them away like you are proposing. I know people who have died in service to our nation and you dare to throw that freedom away like so much garbage? How dare you!
You need to wake up, pull your head out of your fourth point of contact and see what's going on. Stop feeling, and think! Look what's happening all around you. This is NOT what America is all about. These virtual strip search machines and gropes are an outrage and if people like you go along with it, things will continue to get worse.
Oh and by the way, what I expect from my country is freedom. Nothing more, nothing less. What's going on with the TSA, the strip search machines and the gropes does not belong in a nation established because of the desire for personal freedom. I don't expect the government to take care of all of my needs. I take care of myself and my family, with God's help of course. I am responsible for me and mine, not the government.
Nov 12, 2010, 10:23 am
#662
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Newport Beach, California, USA
Posts: 36,062
Cityboi, I haven't forgotten anything about 11 September but you've obviously forgotten, if you ever really understood in the first place, what freedom and liberty are all about. You sound like you are so concerned about your safety and security that you are willing to give up my freedom and constitutional rights along with your own in the quest to feel more secure. What was it Ben Franklin said, let me see.....Ah yes, "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
I wear a uniform every day and am in a dry, sandy place right now, away from my family. I've been in almost 20 years and I didn't join the military and come all the way over here to turn around and be treated like a criminal when I fly in my own country. Too many US military personnel have died over the past 235 years establishing and defending the freedom and rights you can freely enjoy to just throw them away like you are proposing. I know people who have died in service to our nation and you dare to throw that freedom away like so much garbage? How dare you!
You need to wake up, pull your head out of your fourth point of contact and see what's going on. Stop feeling, and think! Look what's happening all around you. This is NOT what America is all about. These virtual strip search machines and gropes are an outrage and if people like you go along with it, things will continue to get worse.
Oh and by the way, what I expect from my country is freedom. Nothing more, nothing less. What's going on with the TSA, the strip search machines and the gropes does not belong in a nation established because of the desire for personal freedom. I don't expect the government to take care of all of my needs. I take care of myself and my family, with God's help of course. I am responsible for me and mine, not the government.
I wear a uniform every day and am in a dry, sandy place right now, away from my family. I've been in almost 20 years and I didn't join the military and come all the way over here to turn around and be treated like a criminal when I fly in my own country. Too many US military personnel have died over the past 235 years establishing and defending the freedom and rights you can freely enjoy to just throw them away like you are proposing. I know people who have died in service to our nation and you dare to throw that freedom away like so much garbage? How dare you!
You need to wake up, pull your head out of your fourth point of contact and see what's going on. Stop feeling, and think! Look what's happening all around you. This is NOT what America is all about. These virtual strip search machines and gropes are an outrage and if people like you go along with it, things will continue to get worse.
Oh and by the way, what I expect from my country is freedom. Nothing more, nothing less. What's going on with the TSA, the strip search machines and the gropes does not belong in a nation established because of the desire for personal freedom. I don't expect the government to take care of all of my needs. I take care of myself and my family, with God's help of course. I am responsible for me and mine, not the government.
Nov 12, 2010, 10:43 am
#663
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: RDU
Programs: OnePass
Posts: 772
I am here at MCO watching the 60-129 checkpoints. There are 2 backscatter x-ray machines, one on each side of the terminal. Looks like neither are in operation as of yet, although local news reports mentioned they were going to be soon. As soon as I check my bag I'll wander over to 1-59 and observe.
I hope they try and give me grief for observing. I'll take them to the cleaner.
Just checked 1-59. There is one backscatter machine in lane 2 that is not in operation. The queue for the WTMDs at the checkpoint is long.
Gotta love mid-day theatre. </sarcasm>
I hope they try and give me grief for observing. I'll take them to the cleaner.
Just checked 1-59. There is one backscatter machine in lane 2 that is not in operation. The queue for the WTMDs at the checkpoint is long.
Gotta love mid-day theatre. </sarcasm>
Last edited by Kiwi Flyer; Nov 12, 2010 at 1:50 pm Reason: merge consecutive posts
Nov 12, 2010, 11:14 am
#664
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Orlando
Programs: DL 4MM/PM, UA 1MM/Gold, AA Paper
Posts: 1,386
When I was going through security at Gates 1 - 59 last week, there was one NoS at the back on the left hand side at the rear screening lanes, and two NoSs on the right hand side at the rear screening lanes. These were in the addition to one at the front screening lanes you mentioned. None were in operation last week.
Nov 12, 2010, 11:19 am
#665
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: PBI
Programs: DL 2.8 MM/PM, AA MM/GLD, Marriott LT Platinum, Hilton Gold
Posts: 1,746
Nov 12, 2010, 11:39 am
#666
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: RDU
Programs: OnePass
Posts: 772
When I was going through security at Gates 1 - 59 last week, there was one NoS at the back on the left hand side at the rear screening lanes, and two NoSs on the right hand side at the rear screening lanes. These were in the addition to one at the front screening lanes you mentioned. None were in operation last week.
It's a zoo here.
Nov 12, 2010, 11:53 am
#667
Join Date: Mar 2007
Programs: AA 1MM
Posts: 3,182
If I opt out, can I request that the pat-down be conducted by the LEO on duty instead?
While I'm highly opposed to the WBI on civil liberties grounds, the more pressing issues for me are these:
1. I don't believe it's been proven safe from a medical perspective. Not only is medical equipment calibrated more carefully and operated by people with more training, you are always given a lead shield to protect certain areas.
2. I get very claustrophobic very easily. That's why I spend so much extra effort (and often $) to ensure I have business class or better and aisle access. Without it I go a little nuts. Seems to me like the TSA is trying to punish me for having a disability...
I've been lucky so far and have just walked up to the traditional metal detectors without issue, but something tells me my luck will run out shortly.
Also, if I opt out, what happens if I refuse to remove my watch and hand it over? Sorry, but I have a problem handing someone I don't know and don't trust a watch that costs more than s/he makes in two months...
While I'm highly opposed to the WBI on civil liberties grounds, the more pressing issues for me are these:
1. I don't believe it's been proven safe from a medical perspective. Not only is medical equipment calibrated more carefully and operated by people with more training, you are always given a lead shield to protect certain areas.
2. I get very claustrophobic very easily. That's why I spend so much extra effort (and often $) to ensure I have business class or better and aisle access. Without it I go a little nuts. Seems to me like the TSA is trying to punish me for having a disability...
I've been lucky so far and have just walked up to the traditional metal detectors without issue, but something tells me my luck will run out shortly.
Also, if I opt out, what happens if I refuse to remove my watch and hand it over? Sorry, but I have a problem handing someone I don't know and don't trust a watch that costs more than s/he makes in two months...
Last edited by Kiwi Flyer; Nov 12, 2010 at 1:50 pm Reason: merge consecutive posts
Nov 12, 2010, 1:17 pm
#668
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: RDU
Programs: OnePass
Posts: 772
Well I almost had my chance to opt out. I got on the line at 60-129 and sure enough the backscatter IS operating. I shuffle through the TDC who looked at my passport card really carefully. I was about to say something when he looks up at me and says "I need to get one of these." I almost laughed. I shuffle some more but aid up not in the NoS line. Good. I didn't wanna get groped. I did watch a 6 year old (my guess) go through it. I was thoroughly disgusted. I made the clerk change her gloves AND wipe the station down when she fondled my CPAP.
I did hand out a few brochures tho. The woman was aghast when she read it. "I had no idea"
I did my good deed for the day.
I did hand out a few brochures tho. The woman was aghast when she read it. "I had no idea"
I did my good deed for the day.
Nov 12, 2010, 1:34 pm
#669
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: San Diego Area
Programs: UA Gold MM, AA Gold MM, Marriott Plat LT, HH Gold, IHG Plat, WoH Discvst, Hertz PC
Posts: 1,834
Yet another nickname for the Nude-O-Scope.
Nov 12, 2010, 2:23 pm
#670
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 15
CLE airport
CLE uses the L3 machines .. did the usual blacklight bob routine and got sent to the MMW scanner .. TSA motioned me through and my exact words were "no way I'm getting in that thing". Motioned me over to the walk-through and then did a cursory pat-down.
Key observation to take away from the whole experience .. in opting-out, my actions shut down the MMW scanner for the ~10 minutes it took them to gather enough smurfs to do the secondary screenings.
Key observation to take away from the whole experience .. in opting-out, my actions shut down the MMW scanner for the ~10 minutes it took them to gather enough smurfs to do the secondary screenings.
Nov 12, 2010, 3:28 pm
#671
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: RDU
Programs: Status Free
Posts: 214
Chosen again in RDU
Roughly 4:45am today. Wasn't being used when I got in the line. (was roped off) There were 2 or 3 folks in front of me, so by the time I got to the Xray rollers, it was open for business. I was about 1 step out of the WTMD when a TSO directed me to the MMW. I did not move at all, just said I opt out. He gestured to the MMW, I said again I opt out. He said (politely) I need to to tell this officer. I took two steps over and saw another TSO on the exit side of the MMW.
I again said I opt out. He said come through this way. I said no, I won't got through it at all.
I walked through the WTMD, no alarm. My 2 bags and 2 bins were through. A female TSO said to wait for the patdown expert. I couldn't see my stuff, so I took one step in that direction. She (a little sharply) told me to stay put. I said I wanted to keep an eye on my things. She said she had to keep an eye on me.
About 45sec later, the female patdown TSO walked over, and from there, the experience was very similar to my opt out of 3 weeks ago. The only significant differences were:
*she used the phrase resistance
*she felt around the inside of the neckline of my shirt and around the waist of my jeans.
overall, it added about 5 min to my journey through security and the TSOs were pretty professional in their demeanor.
I again said I opt out. He said come through this way. I said no, I won't got through it at all.
I walked through the WTMD, no alarm. My 2 bags and 2 bins were through. A female TSO said to wait for the patdown expert. I couldn't see my stuff, so I took one step in that direction. She (a little sharply) told me to stay put. I said I wanted to keep an eye on my things. She said she had to keep an eye on me.
About 45sec later, the female patdown TSO walked over, and from there, the experience was very similar to my opt out of 3 weeks ago. The only significant differences were:
*she used the phrase resistance
*she felt around the inside of the neckline of my shirt and around the waist of my jeans.
overall, it added about 5 min to my journey through security and the TSOs were pretty professional in their demeanor.
Nov 12, 2010, 7:30 pm
#672
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 53
cityboi, i haven't forgotten anything about 11 september but you've obviously forgotten, if you ever really understood in the first place, what freedom and liberty are all about. You sound like you are so concerned about your safety and security that you are willing to give up my freedom and constitutional rights along with your own in the quest to feel more secure. What was it ben franklin said, let me see.....ah yes, "they who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
i wear a uniform every day and am in a dry, sandy place right now, away from my family. I've been in almost 20 years and i didn't join the military and come all the way over here to turn around and be treated like a criminal when i fly in my own country. Too many us military personnel have died over the past 235 years establishing and defending the freedom and rights you can freely enjoy to just throw them away like you are proposing. I know people who have died in service to our nation and you dare to throw that freedom away like so much garbage? How dare you!
You need to wake up, pull your head out of your fourth point of contact and see what's going on. Stop feeling, and think! Look what's happening all around you. This is not what america is all about. These virtual strip search machines and gropes are an outrage and if people like you go along with it, things will continue to get worse.
Oh and by the way, what i expect from my country is freedom. Nothing more, nothing less. What's going on with the tsa, the strip search machines and the gropes does not belong in a nation established because of the desire for personal freedom. I don't expect the government to take care of all of my needs. I take care of myself and my family, with god's help of course. I am responsible for me and mine, not the government.
i wear a uniform every day and am in a dry, sandy place right now, away from my family. I've been in almost 20 years and i didn't join the military and come all the way over here to turn around and be treated like a criminal when i fly in my own country. Too many us military personnel have died over the past 235 years establishing and defending the freedom and rights you can freely enjoy to just throw them away like you are proposing. I know people who have died in service to our nation and you dare to throw that freedom away like so much garbage? How dare you!
You need to wake up, pull your head out of your fourth point of contact and see what's going on. Stop feeling, and think! Look what's happening all around you. This is not what america is all about. These virtual strip search machines and gropes are an outrage and if people like you go along with it, things will continue to get worse.
Oh and by the way, what i expect from my country is freedom. Nothing more, nothing less. What's going on with the tsa, the strip search machines and the gropes does not belong in a nation established because of the desire for personal freedom. I don't expect the government to take care of all of my needs. I take care of myself and my family, with god's help of course. I am responsible for me and mine, not the government.
^+100000000000000000000
Thank you for your service. Take care of yourself.
Nov 12, 2010, 7:34 pm
#673
Suspended
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 4,953
CLE uses the L3 machines .. did the usual blacklight bob routine and got sent to the MMW scanner .. TSA motioned me through and my exact words were "no way I'm getting in that thing". Motioned me over to the walk-through and then did a cursory pat-down.
Key observation to take away from the whole experience .. in opting-out, my actions shut down the MMW scanner for the ~10 minutes it took them to gather enough smurfs to do the secondary screenings.
Key observation to take away from the whole experience .. in opting-out, my actions shut down the MMW scanner for the ~10 minutes it took them to gather enough smurfs to do the secondary screenings.
Nov 12, 2010, 7:42 pm
#674
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 104
I'm not trying to throw the TSOs at OMA under a bus - I've been through there many times before the AIT system was installed and they'd always been professional and courteous. This was the first time I'd noted a delay, barkers and general aggravation with the staff. For those unfamiliar, OMA terminals are small enough to where there usually isn't waiting or related stress at the CP. It's been one or two lines/WTMD at B gates - now split between the AIT system and one WTMD. The CP used to remind me of a muni airport.
I'm honestly a little surprised at the replies regarding the contact with my "sensitive areas" (as a BOS TSO described it). At the time it seemed somewhat of a side note of an overall process that was mildly unpleasant and uncoordinated. The contact was surprising but not traumatizing. I assumed that at least a few other people here might have received attention that was similarly intimate through opt-out, random or unresolved WBI.
Note: I might have somewhat of a thicker skin than others after suffering routine indignities in the military. My drug test each 90 days required a uniformed minder at arms length watching the process in graphic detail. These TSA patdowns (really rubdowns) don't seem bad in comparison. However, it's obvious that others can have a huge problem with this treatment and I don't blame them. I opt-out because I have 4th amendment issues with the feds doing mass imaging (strip searches). The body groping isn't much better. WTMD is sufficient for everyone else going in so I'm not pleased with this unusual attention for choosing not to play.
I don't hold a grudge against anyone directly (including Mr. Gruff) but I'm very concerned that the TSA organization as a whole is acting without accountability to anyone. It's been pointed out that my TSO seemingly bypassed several procedures and broke policy with the (lack of) communication and the manner in which the search was conducted (what was touched & front vs back of the hand). However, as almost anyone can attest there are often disparities with TSA policies/procedures between airports. (Keep your pass out, put it away, shoes on the belt, shoes in the bin, route people to AIT or turn it off, how/why a patdown is done, whatever). Either these differences are intentional (keep people guessing what the procedure of the day will be) or it reflects a lack of standardization and training. Having to complain to the TSA about the TSA seems counterproductive.
I'm pretty sure my experience was a simply a result of poor training/procedures - they had no place to put me when I opted-out and it seemed to cause a break down in processing (at least with the imager). If I was a large guy the WTMD line would have been blocked as well. I wouldn't consider a criminal complaint for the body contact just because this TSO sucked at his job - I put the blame squarely on TSA itself. As I mentioned before I didn't think it was punitive for opting out; I just don't think he knew what he was supposed to be doing. There are supervisors there and that see what's going on each day so my feeling is that training/procedural problems are structural within the organization. I don't think it's unique to any single airport. TSA as a whole has no accountability or metric for quality and success - and that's quite unacceptable. And all they want is more money to keep growing larger.
I'll be fair and say that most inconsistencies in procedures don't seem harmful to travelers (opt-out groping aside), but they do reflect in the quality of the organization as a whole. Most of my encounters are unremarkable. However, TSA quality is one of the reasons I'm never surprised when I read of firearms disappearing from TSA secured areas.
I'm honestly a little surprised at the replies regarding the contact with my "sensitive areas" (as a BOS TSO described it). At the time it seemed somewhat of a side note of an overall process that was mildly unpleasant and uncoordinated. The contact was surprising but not traumatizing. I assumed that at least a few other people here might have received attention that was similarly intimate through opt-out, random or unresolved WBI.
Note: I might have somewhat of a thicker skin than others after suffering routine indignities in the military. My drug test each 90 days required a uniformed minder at arms length watching the process in graphic detail. These TSA patdowns (really rubdowns) don't seem bad in comparison. However, it's obvious that others can have a huge problem with this treatment and I don't blame them. I opt-out because I have 4th amendment issues with the feds doing mass imaging (strip searches). The body groping isn't much better. WTMD is sufficient for everyone else going in so I'm not pleased with this unusual attention for choosing not to play.
I don't hold a grudge against anyone directly (including Mr. Gruff) but I'm very concerned that the TSA organization as a whole is acting without accountability to anyone. It's been pointed out that my TSO seemingly bypassed several procedures and broke policy with the (lack of) communication and the manner in which the search was conducted (what was touched & front vs back of the hand). However, as almost anyone can attest there are often disparities with TSA policies/procedures between airports. (Keep your pass out, put it away, shoes on the belt, shoes in the bin, route people to AIT or turn it off, how/why a patdown is done, whatever). Either these differences are intentional (keep people guessing what the procedure of the day will be) or it reflects a lack of standardization and training. Having to complain to the TSA about the TSA seems counterproductive.
I'm pretty sure my experience was a simply a result of poor training/procedures - they had no place to put me when I opted-out and it seemed to cause a break down in processing (at least with the imager). If I was a large guy the WTMD line would have been blocked as well. I wouldn't consider a criminal complaint for the body contact just because this TSO sucked at his job - I put the blame squarely on TSA itself. As I mentioned before I didn't think it was punitive for opting out; I just don't think he knew what he was supposed to be doing. There are supervisors there and that see what's going on each day so my feeling is that training/procedural problems are structural within the organization. I don't think it's unique to any single airport. TSA as a whole has no accountability or metric for quality and success - and that's quite unacceptable. And all they want is more money to keep growing larger.
I'll be fair and say that most inconsistencies in procedures don't seem harmful to travelers (opt-out groping aside), but they do reflect in the quality of the organization as a whole. Most of my encounters are unremarkable. However, TSA quality is one of the reasons I'm never surprised when I read of firearms disappearing from TSA secured areas.
Welcome, we're glad to have you here!
Not all TSOs are like that. Some of them actually try and make something out of the opt-out situation, rather than barking, and assaulting you. I agree, sometimes I also wonder if I should stop flying because of TSA. However, I remind myself that by flying and opting-out, (which I haven't had to do yet) we are making a stand. If enough people see us doing this, perhaps they will do the same, and TSA will send the NoS to the same warehouse that the puffers are being stored in.
Not all TSOs are like that. Some of them actually try and make something out of the opt-out situation, rather than barking, and assaulting you. I agree, sometimes I also wonder if I should stop flying because of TSA. However, I remind myself that by flying and opting-out, (which I haven't had to do yet) we are making a stand. If enough people see us doing this, perhaps they will do the same, and TSA will send the NoS to the same warehouse that the puffers are being stored in.
Last edited by Kiwi Flyer; Nov 13, 2010 at 5:25 pm Reason: merge consecutive posts