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Old Sep 26, 10, 8:47 am   #316
  
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Originally Posted by Boggie Dog View Post
TSA is only investigatingn privacy software. Currently they say the software does not meet their needs.
And it won't. Ever.

The same way that the TSA promised that the liquid restrictions would be lifted once better bottle screening were available. Their promises tamped down the complaints, now they simply say it'll never happen.

I am thoroughly convinced that the promise of privacy software is only there as lip service to keep folks from complaining. Even if they claim to implement it we can never be sure because no one is allowed to see the screens.

How much do YOU trust what your government says? And TSA in particular?
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Old Sep 26, 10, 11:18 am   #317
  
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Opt Out at ORD-9/23

I've counted myself fortunate to have avoided (to a great extent through deliberate choice of airports and security checkpoints) being in the position to have to make "the choice." Unfortunately my luck ran out at ORD in Terminal 1 last Thursday.

The elite security line was quite lengthy, so I headed to the checkpoint by Gates B 4-6 which is usually pretty quick. Mistake. When I arrived, the queue was about 60% full because only 1 lane was open. I noticed the backscatter to the right of the WTMD lane, but it was not in use. Nevertheless I kept a wary eye on it as the queue progressed. The NOS remained out of service the entire time.

It took 20 minutes to get to the front of the queue. Placed my belongings in the tubs, sent them off into the x-ray machine and was standing in front of the WTMD ready to go through, when a female smurf appeared to my right and started loudly barking, "everyone take off your belts, watches and other metal objects".
I had not removed my watch because I have been using a Michael Kors ceramic watch as my travel watch and it has never alarmed any WTMD in any airport. She looked at me and barked "Take off your watch." So I started to unclasp it and moved back towards the belt to send it through behind the rest of my belongings and resumed my position in front of the WTMD. She pointed to the NOS and barked "you will be going through this scanner". I stopped in my tracks and said "No, I was next in line to go through this one", gesturing to the WTMD.

To which she said in a belligerent tone "I said you will be going through this scanner (pointing at the NOS). I looked at her and said "No, I will not." She said "if I tell you to use this scanner, this is the one you have to use." I replied firmly, "NO. I will not subject myself to unnecessary radiation or allow a government employee to see me naked just to get on a flight." She looked very peeved and pointed to the NOS, and said "walk through there and wait on the other side, if you are refusing to go through the scanner, someone will have give you a pat down search."

In a level voice I said, "I already told you that I am not going through that machine. I opt out", to which she retorted "well, you have to go through it to get to the pat-down area." I pointed to the WTMD and said " I can walk though this to go to the patdown area. I also need someone to gather my belongings and bring them there so they can remain within my view." She barked, "the procedure says you have to walk though that scanner (pointing at the NOS) to go to the pat-down area and we have to follow that procedure." My comment about my belongings was ignored.

My reply "I have the right to opt out of going through that machine and have chosen to do so. I will not walk through that machine to get to the other side. If this means I do not fly today, so be it." (Note: I was heading home and had booked the ticket less than 24 hours previously so could have cancelled without penalty - and taken a flight home out of Midway that evening...). She rolled her eyes and called someone on the (walkie-talkie?) and said in a very sarcastic manner "we have a female opt-out and she is NOT happy about it. I need a female asist."

By this point, my belongings had long since gone through and were piled up on the other side. I was particularly concerned because I had both my laptop and my Ipad in one tub. I asked again for someone to gather my belongings and bring them to me. The TSO on the other side of the WTMD said "you will be able to see them where you are going." The female smurf opened the wheelchair gate and motioned me over to the holding pen. I pointed at my belongings on the belt (rollaboard, briefcase and two tubs, which were causing a pileup) and asked "may I get my stuff or can someone bring it over here?" Her reply - "No, you stand right here until we say you can move." Fortunately, my stuff was now within my vision, although it had been unattended at the end of the belt for at least 5 minutes before I was allowed though the wheelchair door.

A new female smurf arrived to pat me down She had a pleasant, professional demeanor. Very firm on pressure on the back side and ran her hands into the cleft of my buttocks. I was wearing a skirt and was surprised (not complaining though!) that she only ran her hands down the front of my thighs on the front of my skirt and did not run them on the center to check my inner thigh area. After they tested the swab, they told me I was free to go. My belongings were not checked or swabbed. Patdown plus swab check took less time than the standoff with the barker had.

It has taken me a few days to post because the whole incident left me quite unsettled, more so than I expected. While my pat-down was not intrusive compared to what we've read about other's experiences, I am appalled at having to allow a government employee run their hands over my body simply to get on a plane -- and infuriated at the manner and tone taken with me by the original barker. I did speak to a supervisior before leaving the checkpoint and let them know that my right to opt out was initially refused. I am also writing to my Congressional representatives to relay my experience.

This will also be an important topic to bring up at the meeting some of us have with Delta executives during next month's DO. They need to clearly understand the lost revenue they are facing if long-term high value customers choose to cut back on travel rather than be subjected to this bizarre choice of allowing ourselves to be subjected to radiation/allowing government employees to view us nude or run their hands over our body - simply to get on one of their planes. Note: I was not flying DL on this occasion, but the DL DO will be a valuable opportunity to discuss this with senior airline execs.

Last edited by pbjag; Sep 26, 10 at 12:51 pm
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Old Sep 26, 10, 11:55 am   #318
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Originally Posted by pbjag View Post
I've counted myself fortunate to have avoided (to a great extent through deliberate choice of airports and security checkpoints) being in the position to have to make "the choice." Unfortunately my luck ran out at ORD in Terminal 1 last Thursday.

The elite security line was quite lengthy, so I headed to the checkpoint by Gates B 4-6 which is usually pretty quick. Mistake. When I arrived, the queue was about 60% full because only 1 lane was open. I noticed the backscatter to the right of the WTMD lane, but it was not in use. Nevertheless I kept a wary eye on it as the queue progressed. The NOS remained out of service the entire time.

It took 20 minutes to get to the front of the queue. Placed my belongings in the tubs, sent them off into the x-ray machine and was standing in front of the WTMD ready to go through, when a female smurf appeared to my right and started loudly barking, "everyone take off your belts, watches and other metal objects".
I had not removed my watch because I have been using a Michael Kors ceramic watch as my travel watch and it has never alarmed any WTMD in any airport. She looked at me and barked "Take off your watch." So I started to unclasp it and moved back towards the belt to send it through behind the rest of my belongings and resumed my position in front of the WTMD. She pointed to the NOS and barked "you will be going through this scanner". I stopped in my tracks and said "No, I was next in line to go through this one", gesturing to the WTMD.

To which she said in a belligerent tone "I said you will be going through this scanner (pointing at the NOS). I looked at her and said "No, I will not." She said "if I tell you to use this scanner, this is the one you have to use." I replied firmly, "NO. I will not subject myself to unnecessary radiation or allow a government employee to see me naked just to get on a flight." She looked very peeved and pointed to the NOS, and said "walk through there and wait on the other side, if you are refusing to go through the scanner, someone will have give you a pat down search."

In a level voice I said, "I already told you that I am not going through that machine. I opt out", to which she retorted "well, you have to go through it to get to the pat-down area." I pointed to the WTMD and said " I can walk though this to go to the patdown area. I also need someone to gather my belongings and bring them there so they can remain within my view." She barked, "the procedure says you have to walk though that scanner (pointing at the NOS) to go to the pat-down area and we have to follow that procedure." My comment about my belongings was ignored.

My reply "I have the right to opt out of going through that machine and have chosen to do so. I will not walk through that machine to get to the other side. If this means I do not fly today, so be it." (Note: I was heading home and had booked the ticket less than 24 hours previously so could have cancelled without penalty - and taken a flight home out of Midway that evening...). She rolled her eyes and called someone on the (walkie-talkie?) and said in a very sarcastic manner "we have a female opt-out and she is NOT happy about it. I need a female asist."

By this point, my belongings had long since gone through and were piled up on the other side. I was particularly concerned because I had both my laptop and my Ipad in one tub. I asked again for someone to gather my belongings and bring them to me. The TSO on the other side of the WTMD said "you will be able to see them where you are going." The female smurf opened the wheelchair gate and motioned me over to the holding pen. I pointed at my belongings on the belt (rollaboard, briefcase and two tubs, which were causing a pileup) and asked "may I get my stuff or can someone bring it over here?" Her reply - "No, you stand right here until we say you can move." Fortunately, my stuff was now within my vision, although it had been unattended at the end of the belt for at least 5 minutes before I was allowed though the wheelchair door.

A new female smurf arrived to pat me down She had a pleasant, professional demeanor. Very firm on pressure on the back side and ran her hands into the cleft of my buttocks. I was wearing a skirt and was surprised (not complaining though!) that she only ran her hands down the front of my thighs on the front of my skirt and did not run them on the center to check my inner thigh area. After they tested the swab, they told me I was free to go. My belongings were not checked or swabbed. Patdown plus swab check took less time than the standoff with the barker had.

It has taken me a few days to post because the whole incident left me quite unsettled, more so than I expected. While my pat-down was not intrusive compared to what we've read about other's experiences, I am appalled at having to allow a government employee run their hands over my body simply to get on a plane -- and infuriated at the manner and tone taken with me by the original barker. I did speak to a supervisior before leaving the checkpoint and let them know that my right to opt out was initially refused. I am also writing to my Congressional representatives to relay my experience.

This will also be an important topic to bring up at the meeting some of us have with Delta executives during next month's DO. They need to clearly understand the lost revenue they are facing if long-term high value customers choose to cut back on travel rather than be subjected to this bizarre choice of allowing ourselves to be subjected to radiation/allowing government employees to view us nude or run their hands over our body - simply to get on one of their planes.
Great report and thank you for standing up for yourself (and for others)!!!!!

What would the screener have done if you had tightened your glutes so that it would have been difficult for her to get her fingers in there? Good heavens, it makes me nauseous to even think about some screener putting their fingers in there.

Please report back to us after the DO with Delta. I believe I can speak for most of us when I say we are anxious to hear what the airline has to say.
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Old Sep 26, 10, 12:36 pm   #319
  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbjag View Post
I've counted myself fortunate to have avoided (to a great extent through deliberate choice of airports and security checkpoints) being in the position to have to make "the choice." Unfortunately my luck ran out at ORD in Terminal 1 last Thursday.

The elite security line was quite lengthy, so I headed to the checkpoint by Gates B 4-6 which is usually pretty quick. Mistake. When I arrived, the queue was about 60% full because only 1 lane was open. I noticed the backscatter to the right of the WTMD lane, but it was not in use. Nevertheless I kept a wary eye on it as the queue progressed. The NOS remained out of service the entire time.

It took 20 minutes to get to the front of the queue. Placed my belongings in the tubs, sent them off into the x-ray machine and was standing in front of the WTMD ready to go through, when a female smurf appeared to my right and started loudly barking, "everyone take off your belts, watches and other metal objects".
I had not removed my watch because I have been using a Michael Kors ceramic watch as my travel watch and it has never alarmed any WTMD in any airport. She looked at me and barked "Take off your watch." So I started to unclasp it and moved back towards the belt to send it through behind the rest of my belongings and resumed my position in front of the WTMD. She pointed to the NOS and barked "you will be going through this scanner". I stopped in my tracks and said "No, I was next in line to go through this one", gesturing to the WTMD.

To which she said in a belligerent tone "I said you will be going through this scanner (pointing at the NOS). I looked at her and said "No, I will not." She said "if I tell you to use this scanner, this is the one you have to use." I replied firmly, "NO. I will not subject myself to unnecessary radiation or allow a government employee to see me naked just to get on a flight." She looked very peeved and pointed to the NOS, and said "walk through there and wait on the other side, if you are refusing to go through the scanner, someone will have give you a pat down search."

In a level voice I said, "I already told you that I am not going through that machine. I opt out", to which she retorted "well, you have to go through it to get to the pat-down area." I pointed to the WTMD and said " I can walk though this to go to the patdown area. I also need someone to gather my belongings and bring them there so they can remain within my view." She barked, "the procedure says you have to walk though that scanner (pointing at the NOS) to go to the pat-down area and we have to follow that procedure." My comment about my belongings was ignored.

My reply "I have the right to opt out of going through that machine and have chosen to do so. I will not walk through that machine to get to the other side. If this means I do not fly today, so be it." (Note: I was heading home and had booked the ticket less than 24 hours previously so could have cancelled without penalty - and taken a flight home out of Midway that evening...). She rolled her eyes and called someone on the (walkie-talkie?) and said in a very sarcastic manner "we have a female opt-out and she is NOT happy about it. I need a female asist."

By this point, my belongings had long since gone through and were piled up on the other side. I was particularly concerned because I had both my laptop and my Ipad in one tub. I asked again for someone to gather my belongings and bring them to me. The TSO on the other side of the WTMD said "you will be able to see them where you are going." The female smurf opened the wheelchair gate and motioned me over to the holding pen. I pointed at my belongings on the belt (rollaboard, briefcase and two tubs, which were causing a pileup) and asked "may I get my stuff or can someone bring it over here?" Her reply - "No, you stand right here until we say you can move." Fortunately, my stuff was now within my vision, although it had been unattended at the end of the belt for at least 5 minutes before I was allowed though the wheelchair door.

A new female smurf arrived to pat me down She had a pleasant, professional demeanor. Very firm on pressure on the back side and ran her hands into the cleft of my buttocks. I was wearing a skirt and was surprised (not complaining though!) that she only ran her hands down the front of my thighs on the front of my skirt and did not run them on the center to check my inner thigh area. After they tested the swab, they told me I was free to go. My belongings were not checked or swabbed. Patdown plus swab check took less time than the standoff with the barker had.

It has taken me a few days to post because the whole incident left me quite unsettled, more so than I expected. While my pat-down was not intrusive compared to what we've read about other's experiences, I am appalled at having to allow a government employee run their hands over my body simply to get on a plane -- and infuriated at the manner and tone taken with me by the original barker. I did speak to a supervisior before leaving the checkpoint and let them know that my right to opt out was initially refused. I am also writing to my Congressional representatives to relay my experience.

This will also be an important topic to bring up at the meeting some of us have with Delta executives during next month's DO. They need to clearly understand the lost revenue they are facing if long-term high value customers choose to cut back on travel rather than be subjected to this bizarre choice of allowing ourselves to be subjected to radiation/allowing government employees to view us nude or run their hands over our body - simply to get on one of their planes.
Please come back and post the out come meeting with Delta exexcutives.
It will be very intresting to read what they think.

I agree with that a lot of people have cut back on travelling. I know I have . And I also know that nobody in my family (Sweden) wants to come here any more.
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Old Sep 26, 10, 12:49 pm   #320
  
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Originally Posted by doober View Post
What would the screener have done if you had tightened your glutes so that it would have been difficult for her to get her fingers in there?
Please report back to us after the DO with Delta. I believe I can speak for most of us when I say we are anxious to hear what the airline has to say.
Good question (re: clenching my glutes). Will do so next time I am unfortunate enough to be "selected." Did not think of it; was too busy clenching my jaw

A master list of questions to be posed to Delta execs at the DO is being compiled by Gargoyle on the DL forum and the TSA issue was one of the first questions on the list. It will be interesting to hear what they say.
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Old Sep 26, 10, 2:49 pm   #321
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Originally Posted by pbjag View Post
....This will also be an important topic to bring up at the meeting some of us have with Delta executives during next month's DO. They need to clearly understand the lost revenue they are facing if long-term high value customers choose to cut back on travel rather than be subjected to this bizarre choice of allowing ourselves to be subjected to radiation/allowing government employees to view us nude or run their hands over our body - simply to get on one of their planes. Note: I was not flying DL on this occasion, but the DL DO will be a valuable opportunity to discuss this with senior airline execs.
Kudos for standing up to that screener - I'm budgeting an extra 10 minutes for every airport trip as it's likely I'll be opting out every time as these radiation boxes arrive at more airports.

Unfortunately, I think Delta will be a lost cause. They've had their nose up the TSA's behind from Day 1 and pretty much support every single thing the TSA does, not matter how stupid. Somehow this became ingrained in their corporate culture - maybe it's a southern 'law and order' thing. I believe Delta and possibly AA have the lion's share of FFDO applicants.

You can try it - but don't be surprised if they return a nice speech about how wonderful the TSA is and how it's all for our safety and as good Americans, we should cooperate.
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Old Sep 26, 10, 2:53 pm   #322
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pbjag-was this ua at ord or another terminal and if ua, are you referring to the checkpoint with a crew line and located to the left just after the global svcs area? if ua, was the first tso you encountered a heavy set 3 stripe female? if yes, she's a real piece of work as "me 'n my orthopedic shoes" had a run in with her on 9/11
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Old Sep 26, 10, 3:10 pm   #323
  
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pbjag-was this ua at ord or another terminal and if ua, are you referring to the checkpoint with a crew line and located to the left just after the global svcs area? if ua, was the first tso you encountered a heavy set 3 stripe female? if yes, she's a real piece of work as "me 'n my orthopedic shoes" had a run in with her on 9/11
goalie, Yes, that is the screening area in the UA terminal, but not the same TSO. This individual was a petite African-American woman.
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Old Sep 26, 10, 4:29 pm   #324
  
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SFO International 9/26
What do others give as a reason for opting out?
Perhaps we should start giving them a "DontScan.me" brochure if they ask why?
Might it be good for some of them to reach HQ or the local FSD?
BTW most burger-flippers screeners don't ask.

I hope everyone is carrying them. I know I am carrying them everywhere I go in my back pocket, with the heading "What the Transportation Security Administration isn’t telling you ..." visible to the people behind me. A few people have asked me about them, and I have given them one and a little explanation.
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Old Sep 26, 10, 4:34 pm   #325
  
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. . .

What do others give as a reason for opting out?
Because I can.
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Old Sep 26, 10, 4:35 pm   #326
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SFO International 9/26

Rather quiet time of the day, so I went out for a smoke as I'm here for another 8 hours.

They were directing everyone through the Machine, it was the only lane open at the time. Everyone told they must take their belts off, even though I know mine does not set it off, forced to take it off.

Opt'ed out and told told to stand in the pen (If I was overweight, I would have never fitted in the pen) while my iPad/Phone etc went through, Asked if someone could claim my items so they are not stolen, reply was "We have camera's watching everything", my reply "Not much use when it has been stolen" another smurf collected my items.

Had to give a reason which was recorded in a folder, told them, I do not believe they are safe, the smurf tried to explain it was FM waves, to which I replied "I still opt out"

Moved to another area, Wallet and passport/boarding passes taken away for xray and was groped and released.

This was my first Opt Out experience and did not like it one bit. The fact you loose sight of your items and have to give a recorded reason is bad enough. There were only 3 others on the folder sheet, couldn't read their reasons.

What do others give as a reason for opting out?
No, you didn't have to give them a reason.
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Old Sep 26, 10, 4:43 pm   #327
  
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SFO International 9/26

Moved to another area, Wallet and passport/boarding passes taken away for xray and was groped and released.

Did they use their open front of the hand? Or back of the hand? Was there genital contact?
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Old Sep 26, 10, 4:55 pm   #328
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Originally Posted by Asuka View Post
SFO International 9/26

Opt'ed out and told told to stand in the pen (If I was overweight, I would have never fitted in the pen) while my iPad/Phone etc went through, Asked if someone could claim my items so they are not stolen, reply was "We have camera's watching everything", my reply "Not much use when it has been stolen" another smurf collected my items.

Moved to another area, Wallet and passport/boarding passes taken away for xray and was groped and released.
Why is this happening? If I understand you (and others) correctly, your bags go through the xray and are sitting unattended at the end of the belt, possibly out of your sight. Meanwhile, you are separated from your wallet and passport while they are re-scanned? Or is it because you didn't put everything in your bag before putting it in the x-ray?
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Old Sep 26, 10, 5:05 pm   #329
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No, you didn't have to give them a reason.
On the other hand, a long-winded explanation will distract them longer.
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Old Sep 26, 10, 5:12 pm   #330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goalie View Post
pbjag-was this ua at ord or another terminal and if ua, are you referring to the checkpoint with a crew line and located to the left just after the global svcs area? if ua, was the first tso you encountered a heavy set 3 stripe female? if yes, she's a real piece of work as "me 'n my orthopedic shoes" had a run in with her on 9/11
goalie, Yes, that is the screening area in the UA terminal, but not the same TSO. This individual was a petite African-American woman.
thanks and oh joy, rapture and bliss unconfined as now i have another tso to "be on the lookout for"
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