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Old Jul 5, 01, 7:21 am   #1
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two pilots fired !!

good job CX !!

http://www.cathaypacific.com/intl/ab...-70978,00.html
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Old Jul 7, 01, 1:35 pm   #2
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While I'd agree that the airline is doing the right thing by not backing down from its rules, it really worries me that 2 out of the 3 firings were in relations to CX883. I'm flying on that flight this month, and now I'm wondering whether the plane will have a crew.
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Old Jul 7, 01, 3:16 pm   #3
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I somehow think that reinstatement of the two union pilots will be necessary as part of a final agreement on the contract.
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Old Jul 7, 01, 3:36 pm   #4
 
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I won't call it a "good job" by CX!

This event will just be another reason to prolong the industrial action and make negotiations even more difficult.

I don't see an end to this industrial action!
This industrial action is even worst than a walkout or strike!

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Old Jul 7, 01, 8:36 pm   #5
 
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I don't think it's a good move by CX either. The company is making the issue more complicated, and angering the union. I honestly think that those 3 pilots (2 union member and 1 non-union member) are fired simply to get the message across, and I do not think it was a fair action.

If the pilots are to win this strike, my idea is that they have to threaten a mass-resignation. Yes, that means 1200 of those union members threatens to quit CX at once. This might be hard to accomplish, but the company should then in return get the message from the pilots.

[This message has been edited by fakecd (edited 07-07-2001).]
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Old Jul 7, 01, 8:49 pm   #6
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do you really think that the pilots would want to give up such a highly paid job (which i still believe is among the best in the world) ? is it really such a bad job and are they really that unhappy ? come on...they are just all being greedy !! if they quit CX they wouldn't find that much a better deal out there...at least that's what i think...
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Old Jul 7, 01, 10:13 pm   #7
 
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tedhl:

I would think that being a CX pilot is actually a great job, and I'm sure they will NOT want to give up their job either. What I'm saying, is that "mass resignation threat" can be a VERY powerful card during this negotiation (if there's any). It's obvious to both party, that all those 1200 pilots is most likely not going to quit, and the company will also not afford to loose all these well qualified pilots all at once.

If the pilots makes such threat, and IF all the union members fails to show up at work one day just to show their intention, the result will be catastrophic to the management and the general public. As a company, what is the choice they have? Give the pilots what they want and end this costly dispute? Or fire all the 1200 pilots and recruit another 1200 pilots from elsewhere?

I'm not saying that what pilots are doing is totally justified, as many will have different view. But, as a HK citizen, I don't want to see this deadlock continue. Many people think that pilots should give up and let the normal routine resume. BUT, we have to remember that if the pilots win and get what they want, the dispute will ALSO end.

Basically, I just want this mess to be over. I frankly don't care which party will eventually win (although I side with the pilots for personal reason), because that really doesn't do any harm/benefit to the general public. BUT, what we know is that if this continue, then the harm is done on all party.
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Old Jul 7, 01, 10:35 pm   #8
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as a local HK myself as well, i definitely also would never want to see this deadlock continue...this certainly is a lose-lose-lose situation for all CX, pilots and HK...

however, i also do not want to see that these pilots, knowing that they have excessive power, use strike as a dirty tool year after year to threaten CX and the HK economy in general...to ask for compensation that, I think, is way too unreasonable...

although i do not see an easy solution out of this either, i would agree with CX that they should not just agree to whatever the pilots want...

frankly, if the pilots win and CX really just gives whatever they want...do you think that the pilots would not go on strike again in a couple of years' time ?? i doubt it, given the pilots' record...2 years ago they made a 3-year agreement with CX, and now they are not honoring it already...it seems to me that whenever they feel like they need extra money, they would go on strike...

and, on a more personal note, i do not want to see CX's money goes to the already-highly-paid pilots, rather than going to further improve their F and J class cabins...
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Old Jul 7, 01, 10:54 pm   #9
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tedhl:

however, i also do not want to see that these pilots, knowing that they have excessive power, use strike as a dirty tool year after year to threaten CX and the HK economy in general.</font>
Easy solution to this. Allow another airline to operate frm HKG
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Old Jul 8, 01, 12:05 am   #10
 
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well as I see it CX has shown its intentions and battle plan.If the hi-tech bus drivers want to work to the book, they need to do so according to the interpretations of the employer who wrote the book and not how they read the book The AOA on behalf of its members rejected a pay offer that was generously made two years into a three year agreement between the parties so CX have bent the three year fixed agreement in the pilots' favour and had it thrown back at them - this offered increase was the equivalent to the senior captains of a HK police constable's monthly wages. In the SCMP yesterday there was an article which seemed to indicate that CX was intending a lockout. As for a strike, well under HK labour laws that would be very interesting as failing to obey the lawful directions of an employer allows the employer to fire the employee without benefits. The only thing I would like to see from CX would be an explanation of the rostering complaint which I think is a fair one - the drivers need to know where they are going before they get to the airport. I see no way that Swire will buckle - no way old chap, we're British. If it needs to shut down the airline or fly the main routes with wetleased charters, fire the lot of them, rehire new drivers at new rates then I guess that is what will happen.
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Old Jul 8, 01, 9:15 am   #11
 
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I am not very familiar with the 3 year plan they signed 2 years ago, but if this is true that the pilots have really violated the agreement, I would agree that there is a problem.

Well, but on the other hand, wouldn't any workers use their authority/power as a "dirty tool" when they have strike or industrial action to get what they want? For example (sorry for being off topic) in Vancouver, the public transit workers have already walked out of the job for more than 95 days! !! Now, where's the rights of Vancouver citizen and many tourists disappeared to?

I can't agree more on the point that CX pilots have excessive power, and HK government might want to seek a more permanant solution to this chronic problem with aviation industry. I also agree that they are being greedy but it's also their labor right.

This issue is too controversal to be debated in my eyes, and I do not want to sound like I'm having an argument with anybody here, so let me take a more neutral stance as of now. But I hope I have expressed my thoughts in a clear manner to get my idea across

cheers*

[This message has been edited by fakecd (edited 07-08-2001).]
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Old Jul 8, 01, 10:24 am   #12
 
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money is not their target - their target is for better roster practices. if it's about money, this industrial action would have been over and done with when cathay offered them the attractive package.
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Old Jul 8, 01, 11:33 am   #13
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i always just think this is a lame excuse from the pilots, that "money is not what we are asking for"...for example, if they are not talking about money, why were they issuing the salary comparison figures together with the "Overwhelming Pilot Support for 'Limited Industrial Action' Vote" ??

http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/default.htm

and, look at Mr. Findlay's three areas of complaints in that "Overwhelming Pilot Support for 'Limited Industrial Action' Vote" letter...the first two areas are both on money...even the third one, talking about cockpit fatigue/inefficient rostering, ended with the conclusion that the "actual cost per 'stick' hour of a pilot" at CX is consistently lower than their counterparts in other parts of the world...
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Old Jul 8, 01, 3:09 pm   #14
 
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by gear down:
money is not their target - their target is for better roster practices. if it's about money, this industrial action would have been over and done with when cathay offered them the attractive package.</font>
it is definitely money, roaster is only an excuse.
for the salary numbers quoted, i believe both sides are quoting to their own advantages -- what they need is someone like watson wyatt as to make the benchmarking

read the new issue of "economists" -- it said US pilots (e.g. UA) got a big raise last year, and that the pilots now have a good channel to compare compensation.
therefore it might be right that CX base pay is lower than US pilots. however, taken into account housing/education/etc. CX pilots are probably still well paid. (and perhaps higher than US airlines in absolute $ terms)

what CX should do is either call in some neutral HR/compensation company to settle this, or be very transparent in compensation (if they think they are on the right side)
e.g. they could simply propose an option of cash only package (no housing, no education) and match that to some weighted average (based on current mix of pilot base) cash package of the pilot's benchmark

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