Ditching the last sector of your itinerary
Feb 28, 2013, 8:53 pm
#31
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: HKG
Programs: BA Gold OWE
Posts: 216
I don't want to make any personal attack on correctionCX as I appreciate 2-way discussion and obviously he/she stands on the other end than the concensus of "no issue" based on above. However I'd like to hear/see hard evidences such as precise clauses of Fares rules or T&C of MPC membership which states ditching last segment of a discounted fare constitutes an offense that could be subject of sanction.
So any decision would be commercially-based. In which case, wouldn't it be easier to simply price ex-TPE higher or discontinue them rather than face the backlash? Particularly with the new antitrust law in Hong Kong coming into force soon, I only see the market getting better for ex-HKG travellers, not worse.
Feb 28, 2013, 8:57 pm
#32
Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,377
Without going into the T&C...or the ethnics of purchasing such tickets...or the revenue/loss to CX.
If one were so concerned about having having your MPC terminated.....why not just fly the whole trip? Especially those that need to do it on a very regularly base. Fly the whole route to TPE. Then use your inbound portion of your (HKG-TPE-HKG) ticket back to HK within a few hours time. It's already a lot closer than doing ex-NRT or similar.
Sure it would maybe take half a day more out of your life. But a lot more than loosing your sleep over whether you will loose your GO/DM benefits in the long run.
If one were so concerned about having having your MPC terminated.....why not just fly the whole trip? Especially those that need to do it on a very regularly base. Fly the whole route to TPE. Then use your inbound portion of your (HKG-TPE-HKG) ticket back to HK within a few hours time. It's already a lot closer than doing ex-NRT or similar.
Sure it would maybe take half a day more out of your life. But a lot more than loosing your sleep over whether you will loose your GO/DM benefits in the long run.
Feb 28, 2013, 9:19 pm
#33
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: HKG/HND/OOL
Programs: QF Emerald. SQ Gold.
Posts: 3,170
this loophole was fixed up about a year ago if my memory serves correct. So you need to ditch your last segment and buy new HKG-TPE positioing flight at additional cost. Having said that, if one is so sure of multiple travel, alternative is to do the HKG-TPE segment to fly back to TPE and commence next journey to HKG on a new ex-TPE flight. Unforuntaly I dont fly enough ex-TPE I fares to do this myself but i'm sure othres do it.
and "ethical" quetion - no I don't think/see how it's unethical for one person to take his/her own time to fly to TPE and buy a cheaper product. Aviation fares are so complex in the first place if consumers find better value to arbitrage that's the unintended consequence of complex pricing structure. I'm still giving revenue to CX, just not as much as they wanted. Is this unethical? I don't think so.
Last edited by fakecd; Feb 28, 2013 at 9:58 pm
Feb 28, 2013, 10:40 pm
#34
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
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I see no question of ethics either...it is CX who's unscrupulous with price differentiation for same product.
I see no question of ethics either...it is CX who's unscrupulous with price differentiation for same product.
Mar 1, 2013, 2:39 am
#35
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,513
I have never encountered my accounts getting suspended or charge more because I always use the final sector.
I am not saying it is 100% they will do that, but there is a risk. Also per the contract SXC posted I think they can.
Also I am sure CX is clamping down on this, and I think for the benefit of other travellers using such fares, then if you really can use the last segment, why are you spoiling it for everyone.
I am sure they can add clauses of this in the farerule and the purchasing conditions.
Also someone said they can still ex - HKG via SIN/KUL etc.. Well if that is so attractive, then why don't you do it now? It is obvious that the CX ex TPE deals are good, so please don't spoil it for everyone.
As for CX charging different prices based on the same product = not ethical? Isn't this the whole basis of capitalism? Supply and Demand? So you want everything to be the same?
Sure CX can stop the sales of the ex TPE fares. But it is a commerical decision originally designed to capture the TPE pax and not designed to draw away from the ex HKG pax crowd. If they can see it canabalise the HKG pax enough I am sure they will introduce further measure.
Well back to the op. It is up to you what you want to do, but just to let you know all the facts out there.
EOD.
I am not saying it is 100% they will do that, but there is a risk. Also per the contract SXC posted I think they can.
Also I am sure CX is clamping down on this, and I think for the benefit of other travellers using such fares, then if you really can use the last segment, why are you spoiling it for everyone.
I am sure they can add clauses of this in the farerule and the purchasing conditions.
Also someone said they can still ex - HKG via SIN/KUL etc.. Well if that is so attractive, then why don't you do it now? It is obvious that the CX ex TPE deals are good, so please don't spoil it for everyone.
As for CX charging different prices based on the same product = not ethical? Isn't this the whole basis of capitalism? Supply and Demand? So you want everything to be the same?
Sure CX can stop the sales of the ex TPE fares. But it is a commerical decision originally designed to capture the TPE pax and not designed to draw away from the ex HKG pax crowd. If they can see it canabalise the HKG pax enough I am sure they will introduce further measure.
Well back to the op. It is up to you what you want to do, but just to let you know all the facts out there.
EOD.
Jul 20, 2015, 3:39 am
#36
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 19,800
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/briti...eu-sector.html
http://www.headforpoints.com/2015/07...ex-eu-tickets/
Jul 20, 2015, 9:03 am
#37
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 1
With regard to the similar issue with BAs vastly cheaper fares from EU cities than from LON: To be quite honest, if people choose to book BA fares from other countries as the fares from those countries are cheaper (i.e FRA/LHR/HKG/LHR/BER) and use a cheap no frills flight to get to the departure point, there is nothing at all wrong with this and any moaning is purely sour grapes on the part of airlines and would be deemed by the EU completely unreasonable in legal terms.
In the same way that airlines differentiate fares and have a very complex fare system to maximise their sales and profit, then so should the customer be able to also find the best deal for themselves. Ethics does not come into this. I also do not see that airlines can legally do anything about it if the final sector is unused. With BA, on a routing such the one above, (FRA/LHR/HKG/LHR/BER), they are happy to accept that the final sector flight (in this example LHR/BER) if it is booked same day or next day may be unused for a variety of situational, unforeseen reasons. The fact that some people "miss" the flight as they had no intention of returning to the start point is irrelevant and cannot be proven either way.
It is final sector flights booked months later which are the issue for them according to the grapevine - which is illogical then you would more likely use that flight to take a weekend break in a lovely EU city and get a cheap no frills flight back.
This is all just posturing from airlines and frankly, in the case of BA, they should be careful not to alienate good frequent fliers who are enthusiasts for the aviation industry as well as being regular business travellers as their product is not good enough in J class to warrant any posturing on any kind of high horse!
Completely legally unenforceable to try and recoup lost revenue from pax in the case of unused final sectors and I would think there would be people who given the chance would be happy to test this in court.
In the same way that airlines differentiate fares and have a very complex fare system to maximise their sales and profit, then so should the customer be able to also find the best deal for themselves. Ethics does not come into this. I also do not see that airlines can legally do anything about it if the final sector is unused. With BA, on a routing such the one above, (FRA/LHR/HKG/LHR/BER), they are happy to accept that the final sector flight (in this example LHR/BER) if it is booked same day or next day may be unused for a variety of situational, unforeseen reasons. The fact that some people "miss" the flight as they had no intention of returning to the start point is irrelevant and cannot be proven either way.
It is final sector flights booked months later which are the issue for them according to the grapevine - which is illogical then you would more likely use that flight to take a weekend break in a lovely EU city and get a cheap no frills flight back.
This is all just posturing from airlines and frankly, in the case of BA, they should be careful not to alienate good frequent fliers who are enthusiasts for the aviation industry as well as being regular business travellers as their product is not good enough in J class to warrant any posturing on any kind of high horse!
Completely legally unenforceable to try and recoup lost revenue from pax in the case of unused final sectors and I would think there would be people who given the chance would be happy to test this in court.
Last edited by simonflies; Jul 20, 2015 at 9:14 am
Jul 21, 2015, 2:37 pm
#38
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: EWR
Programs: CX Green | UA Silver | Marriott Lifetime Platinum | Hyatt Globalist | Hilton Gold | AA EXP
Posts: 813
hypothetically speaking, is there anything that would prevent BA (or CX or any other airlines) from say, start awarding miles upon completion of the entire journey and 0 miles (for the entire trip) if you decide to drop one/last segment (plus not reporting anything to partner airlines in case one uses a different OW FFP)? I mean I don't think there's any legal requirement for them to give you miles on a segment by segment basis? It's just a matter of changing T&C?
I don't know if it is technologically feasible (currently) but probably it's a better approach instead of harassing FF who, not for nothing, still actually pay them something for the flight (albeit less than what the airline would like)? I know not everyone cares of miles but I suspect many folks that do this do care about miles/status so this should be a more effective approach to bring this 'problem' to a more manageable size?
I don't know if it is technologically feasible (currently) but probably it's a better approach instead of harassing FF who, not for nothing, still actually pay them something for the flight (albeit less than what the airline would like)? I know not everyone cares of miles but I suspect many folks that do this do care about miles/status so this should be a more effective approach to bring this 'problem' to a more manageable size?
Last edited by Rivarix; Jul 21, 2015 at 2:51 pm
Jul 21, 2015, 8:02 pm
#39
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Seat 1A
Programs: Non-status paid F/J (best value for $$$)
Posts: 4,124
hypothetically speaking, is there anything that would prevent BA (or CX or any other airlines) from say, start awarding miles upon completion of the entire journey and 0 miles (for the entire trip) if you decide to drop one/last segment (plus not reporting anything to partner airlines in case one uses a different OW FFP)? I mean I don't think there's any legal requirement for them to give you miles on a segment by segment basis? It's just a matter of changing T&C?
I don't know if it is technologically feasible (currently) but probably it's a better approach instead of harassing FF who, not for nothing, still actually pay them something for the flight (albeit less than what the airline would like)? I know not everyone cares of miles but I suspect many folks that do this do care about miles/status so this should be a more effective approach to bring this 'problem' to a more manageable size?
I don't know if it is technologically feasible (currently) but probably it's a better approach instead of harassing FF who, not for nothing, still actually pay them something for the flight (albeit less than what the airline would like)? I know not everyone cares of miles but I suspect many folks that do this do care about miles/status so this should be a more effective approach to bring this 'problem' to a more manageable size?
Nov 18, 2015, 8:40 pm
#40
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 564
Yesterday I received a call from Cathay noting that I had not flown the outbound leg of a HKG-BKK ticket yesterday morning and asking me if I wanted to cancel the return leg. Ran thus:
Me: You don't automatically cancel the return segment of the ticket if I miss one?
CX: Not necessarily, it depends on the ticket.
Me: Really, that's news to me. So, for example, if this was a BKK-HKG-PVG-HKG-BKK ticket and I didn't fly BKK-HKG, you wouldn't cancel the later segments?
CX: That's different because it's more segments.
Me: I don't understand. On a simple return journey you don't cancel the return segment if I miss the outer one, is that what you are saying?
CX: It depends.
Me: So, can I rebook the BKK-HKG leg of the ticket you're calling about?
CX: to rebook you'd need to speak to the ticket office.
This called just introduced herself as from CX and didn't say what part. This phone call confused me and the agent's clarifications were unhelpful. Is she right that in some situations missing the first segment doesn't invalidate subsequent legs and if so can anyone point me to the rules on how this works? Thanks.
Me: You don't automatically cancel the return segment of the ticket if I miss one?
CX: Not necessarily, it depends on the ticket.
Me: Really, that's news to me. So, for example, if this was a BKK-HKG-PVG-HKG-BKK ticket and I didn't fly BKK-HKG, you wouldn't cancel the later segments?
CX: That's different because it's more segments.
Me: I don't understand. On a simple return journey you don't cancel the return segment if I miss the outer one, is that what you are saying?
CX: It depends.
Me: So, can I rebook the BKK-HKG leg of the ticket you're calling about?
CX: to rebook you'd need to speak to the ticket office.
This called just introduced herself as from CX and didn't say what part. This phone call confused me and the agent's clarifications were unhelpful. Is she right that in some situations missing the first segment doesn't invalidate subsequent legs and if so can anyone point me to the rules on how this works? Thanks.
Nov 30, 2015, 3:15 pm
#41
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NYC
Programs: DL SM, CX GREEN
Posts: 235
Will be skipping the last (4th) leg of a CX return trip and booking a OW flight on CX which leaves earlier than the 4th leg.
Assuming that most people in this thread skip the final leg with no issues, should I feel safe to book the OW on the same airline on same day? Or is there possibility of the 3rd leg being cancelled (JFK - HKG), already flew the first 2 legs.
Assuming that most people in this thread skip the final leg with no issues, should I feel safe to book the OW on the same airline on same day? Or is there possibility of the 3rd leg being cancelled (JFK - HKG), already flew the first 2 legs.
Nov 30, 2015, 6:19 pm
#42
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Possibility to cancel, they also wont like it. Best if you notify them ahead of time.
Originally Posted by Zamees
Will be skipping the last (4th) leg of a CX return trip and booking a OW flight on CX which leaves earlier than the 4th leg.
Assuming that most people in this thread skip the final leg with no issues, should I feel safe to book the OW on the same airline on same day? Or is there possibility of the 3rd leg being cancelled (JFK - HKG), already flew the first 2 legs.
Assuming that most people in this thread skip the final leg with no issues, should I feel safe to book the OW on the same airline on same day? Or is there possibility of the 3rd leg being cancelled (JFK - HKG), already flew the first 2 legs.
Nov 30, 2015, 6:32 pm
#43
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NYC
Programs: DL SM, CX GREEN
Posts: 235
The ticket price difference without the last leg was ~$2000, was $1100, or $3000, I don't think letting them know beforehand is a good idea. I do plan to alert them I won't fly the last leg once I arrive in HKG.
Dec 1, 2015, 7:06 pm
#44
Join Date: Nov 2006
Programs: MPC,CA,MU,AF
Posts: 8,171
The other option would be to book the OW trip on a different airline. Am I better off doing that?
The ticket price difference without the last leg was ~$2000, was $1100, or $3000, I don't think letting them know beforehand is a good idea. I do plan to alert them I won't fly the last leg once I arrive in HKG.
The ticket price difference without the last leg was ~$2000, was $1100, or $3000, I don't think letting them know beforehand is a good idea. I do plan to alert them I won't fly the last leg once I arrive in HKG.
If you have checked luggage, they usually allow you to check to HKG only, but I do not know if they allow that for married segments (or for short layovers when you may not have enough time to exit immigration/customs and return). They can rightfully disallow that for married segments. (Technically they have the right to reprice your fare even if you do not have checked luggage, but I don't think they did in the past.)
I suppose you have the travel documents/visa for the original destination. Otherwise they will not allow you to board the flight.
Dec 2, 2015, 6:07 am
#45
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: HKG/HND/OOL
Programs: QF Emerald. SQ Gold.
Posts: 3,170
theory vs practice.... until i see a firm evidence of someone getting penalized for ditching last segment, i hold a.view its one of those grey area where blind eyes are turned on. just go ahead with it.
i have however offer CX management a simple solution to police it... offer incentive to your staff to identify such occurenence... for example mere bonus equivalent to 25% of fare difference reclaimed by busting married segment and last segment ditching, can go a long way. may i suggest you hire 500 staff in manilla, for cost of less than a monthly housing subsidy offered to Ivan (your CEO who i find surprising that shareholders have not yet replaced)... and offer those people the incentive i just described. you will be surprised how much people you can bust if you want to enforce the rule
i have however offer CX management a simple solution to police it... offer incentive to your staff to identify such occurenence... for example mere bonus equivalent to 25% of fare difference reclaimed by busting married segment and last segment ditching, can go a long way. may i suggest you hire 500 staff in manilla, for cost of less than a monthly housing subsidy offered to Ivan (your CEO who i find surprising that shareholders have not yet replaced)... and offer those people the incentive i just described. you will be surprised how much people you can bust if you want to enforce the rule