saltspring

Well, I waltzed through immigration at YVR in 2 minutes (using the line for Canadians with those self-service machines) and wasn't asked for it. Leaving Japan too was fine. Not needed, and had no problems.

mkjr

My signature and seal is on file with the official docs office in YYZ. US ones are with state agencies as I recall. I would highly doubt the Ontario database of signatures and seal impressions is accessible to CBS agents. In fact, I guess I could do an FOI request to find out if this personal information of mine is shared with anyone. I also doubt this is shared with US customs.

I also know they compare it closely when authenticating here in YYZ as my old signature was slightly off versus my new one and I had to update it since the authentication was rejected.

kyden

The one time you need it is the one time you don't bring it. Better to be safe than sorry.....well for most people in this thread.

mkjr

Yes. That's right. I'm sure you buy refundable Y fares just in case.

I mean. Better be safe than sorry.

Fredd

Glad it all worked so smoothly for you and your son. ^

Agreed. We've crossed the U.S. - Canadian border by car and on foot with grandchildren a fair number of times over the past several years and have only been asked for a letter a couple of times.

Once upwards of 15 years ago two carloads of two brothers and their families attending a wedding with us in Canada let their children switch cars for variety at some point before crossing the border.

The youngish children in one car were hauled in for a round of private questioning that somewhat alarmed them to make sure there was nothing amiss - rather silly given the circumstances IMHO but consequently we feel better having the backup documentation in our glove box or roll-aboard to minimize the chance of unpleasantness and delay.

kyden

What I don't understand is that people are "inconvenienced" by having to carry the letter, yet if it was their child that was abducted by a non-custodial parent or stranger, they may think differently. The officers are there to look out for these type of situations. The amount of questioning depends on each individual case/crossing.

Does it really matter if the letter is "notarized"? Probably not, but a quick call/contact by the BSO can be done to at least attempt to ensure if the proposed transit is genuine.

Seat13F_AC_CRJ

The world has changed. While there may be just as many bad people as there were when you were a child, there is an increased awareness throughout the travel continuum to be alert to potential problems.

Police, airline officials, immigration officers and so on are receiving awareness training on issues such as human trafficking, child slavery, parental child abductions, sexual crimes against minors, etc. These are all real problems with real victims. Unfortunately because there are a patchwork of rules, laws, regulations, cultural norms and practices it will be next to impossible to implement any international standards in this area. All professional travellers should understand why "the old way" is no longer acceptable.
--
13F

Fredd

Make today a definite third time for us. We brought our two Canadian grandchildren (one 13 and one 11) down for an overnight visit and encountered the type of agent one unfortunately runs across every so often.

We strongly suspect he was disappointed when we immediately supplied the letters he asked for from our glove box. He spent a long time (2-3 minutes) reading through them, and finally handed them back, saying "You need to get these updated - go ahead." What we have are notarized letters with photocopies of the parents' passports attached, and a list of updated signatures.

I didn't know whether he was referring to the notarized letters themselves or to the signatures so politely asked him what we needed to update.

He replied not very nicely that the latest updated signatures were February 2014 and that's "too long."

I said "Thank you, sir," and off we drove.

Contrast that to taking the same grandson to Europe this summer and never being asked once to produce a letter by any U.S. or European officials.

As gglave remarked above, I preferred the extra three minutes at the booth to being sent to secondary, which this officer no doubt would have relished if it wouldn't have made him look foolish.

This is very much a FWIW and YMMV.

Cheers,
Fredd

GUWonder

My relatives never even much cared about making out such letters, and now we skip the letters all the time for Canada-US cross-border traffic (in either direction).

If CBSA or CBP want to make an issue over not having an easily doctored/misleading letter when the passengers' counter-offer is a live video conference call or a video recording with the legal custodial parent(s)/guardian(s) not present, then the migration control types were looking to make a stink for no good reason from the start and additional paperwork the passengers present won't necessarily do any good (and could even perhaps make things slower/worse).

It's rather amusing when people think a letter will spare them hassle, but then they soon thereafter get sent to secondary and end up worse off than other members in the family cleared by the same officers under much the same circumstances but without having any such letter to show -- especially when all the extra hassle arises because of the notarized letters' feeding more suspicions in the heads of the authorities who have already jumped to a suspect conclusion about the individual(s) which CBP/CBSA presumed to be suspicious.

"Can I see a letter from ___ parent/parents authorizing this travel for the children?"

"Don't have such a thing since I travel all the time with the kids by myself, but you're welcome to video call _____. Here's _____ live from the kid's phone."

Fredd

It's of course all a crap shoot and dependent on the whim of the individual officer. The letters aren't "required," just "strongly recommended."

In this instance, the thought did cross my mind that the officer in question would have looked forward to chewing us out in front of our grandchildren if we didn't have a letter, and then sending us on our way with a stern warning that we should never let this happen again, saving us a couple of minutes watching him read through the letters laboriously.

OTOH I too have seen officialdom in action and if we had invited this particular agent (and a few others I've encountered) to participate in a Facetime session with whoever was on the other end, I don't think the result would have been pretty.

mkjr

Fredd. Your experience just shows the letters are useless and really won't make any difference in avoiding a potential secondary.

Fredd

While I wouldn't argue a letter is a guaranteed talisman, my best guess is that it would have been 50/50 whether the US agent in question chewed us out and sent us on or referred us to secondary if I didn't have a letter.

If referred, we could escalate the situation to a supervisor if necessary by pointing out we've complied exactly with what their websites lay out. Up to now that's been a moot point since we and our letter have never been referred to secondary in a couple of dozen crossings over the past few years.

Returning the grandchildren to Canada on the same trip, the young agent asked, "You do have a letter?" I asked if she wanted to see it but she sent us on. No, I didn't say "Your own government states they are not required."

In summary, I feel more confident following the written recommendations of both countries, but also realize that individual officers can still create delays and unpleasantness.

mkjr

I'm sure there are lots like you that get this worthless document but if you think for one second this letter helps prevent abductions of children, your kidding yourself. I mean honestly, you had a letter that was signed months ago. Please. Does that not tell you it means nothing? If not, no worries. You can do what ever makes you feel better.

By all means, keep paying notaries. If they are like me, they will laugh at people behind their backs when they come asking for the same. I certainly don't allow my notary seal on these.

Fredd

You've made your opinion clear that notarized documents are worthless, a refreshing attitude for a notary.

OT, I recall a situation nearly 50 years ago in which my late father was living in Canada and required to provide a notarized document to somebody in the U.S. in regard to a business transaction. The Americans wouldn't accept the Canadian notarization until the notary provided additional information signed by a court official. In effect, the notary had to get himself notarized. Where does it end?

I don't believe I stated anywhere that I myself think "this letter helps prevent abductions of children," any more than I think the actions of the TSA significantly prevent hijackings. It would be interesting if statistics were available showing to what extent border authorities have prevented actual kidnapping attempts, and whether a lack of a notarized consent letter had anything to do with it.

I do believe the letter has eased our way through the border, and that makes it worth something to me. YMMV.

mkjr

please. i suggest you re-read why THIS notarized document is worthless. if you want to be cute by a half, then make sure you know what you are talking about. i am a notary by default but in no way would i put my seal on these letters. i am sure many other notaries will take your money.

as to your US situation, again, read my comments above. it explains why they needed more information and why what you show to them is worthless and could be made by anyone and a few bucks to by a seal that says notary. again, if you want to be too cute by a half, make sure you know what you are taking about. some on these boards actually do.

the actual purpose of the letter is to assist border agents in preventing child abductions. it is not to help you cross the border. it is for them to help you do the leg work for them. it gives them some level of comfort.

that said, in your case, your letter was 6 months old. how good is that for them to know that at least 6 months ago, it was ok for you to take your grand children across.

it will neither speed up or slow down your crossing - i hate to say it.

again, there are lots of sheep like you. don't feel bad about it.