Now back to T5. I think what has depressed most of us who regularly post here as those who have come to join us at such a happy and constructive time is that we all had a horrible feeling that this would happen. Nice people would not say I Told You So. But we know that we did.
I have an awful feeling that you are even younger than me because I've thought about why I (and mrs uk1) have felt so exceptionally outraged by what's happened and in thinking about it, and having some rather odd conclusions about it, - I wonder whether my rather odd conclusions might be more widely held amongst Brits.
The simple fact is that I'm old enough to remember when BA (+ BEA and BOAC) was not only merely the national airline but the nationalised airline. I (and everyone else) owned it. And I was bl**dy proud to. And when you went to Spain, you felt superior to the riffraff in Iberia. And when you went to Rome you felt superior to the riffraff that went Alitalia. There was, and I think more than is really currently appreciated, national pride attatched to BA. Not everyone - but I bet more than is appreciated. And when you climbed the steps and were greeted by a BA steward/ess you were virtually home. Even Maggie T. in her worst days caught support when she covered the new tail logo. Brits still feel love and ownership over BA, irrespective of reality. And BA is still to many of us the single key consistant overseas representation of much of what is British. And the T5 debacle has caused considerable harm to all of that.
And the odd thing, is that I do not notice any real lowering of standards amongst customer facing people at BA. On flights and in checking in, 99.99% of the time you can engage BA people and they respond, in the same interested and intelligent way they did in the halcyon days. These people are essentially the same people that were there when I first travelled BA - or the earlier flavours. So these exceptional people are still attracted to the BA ethos - that is until they discover the reality - hang on in - but then cannot do it any more.
Then we had all the debacles. The lack of sensitive staff management. The Virgin debacle. The unofficial strikes. And the rest. And now T5. And then cheating customers of overnight accomodation. Not telling customers that their baggage hasn't come with them until after they have arrived. Tactical cheating for short term gain.
The impression is that it is still the same high staff quality, and their level of commitment. And they have seen their "packages eroded" - but still stay on and they continue to love and protect the core product. But the management seem clueless and abandon the staff and do not understand the concept of "continuity of quality". And WW is clearly not of the calibre required for customers, shareholders, or to be a key custodian of the GB brand.
I think that a lot of Brits feel betrayed by BA's management because they are trashing something that they "love" more than they realised they did, which includes "Brand British" as well as BA. We feel he made us all Brits - particularly BA staff - look awkward and inept, when none were. And we're mad. But we need to reassure BA staff that we are "with them" in our dealings with them, and make them understand who we hold responsible.
This isn't just about the opening of T5. It's about trashing the brand, which is still loved (although us chaps and chapesses will never admit in an un-British way to such a thing), it's about letting the staff down, the customers down, the shareholders down, and the British Flag down. And that lays at the door of a single man. And he has said so. WW.
Forgive the clumsiness of the expression of the idea - it's difficult suggesting emotive, I hope others see a bit of themselves in it - otherwise I'll develop a squint.
I think that so far they have only allowed rebooking or refunds for cancelled flights - not for people on other flights who are worried about disruption. (If your friends saw a different policy, I can't find it now.) I've tried to be proactive about possible disruption on previous occasions (on inflexible tickets) with little success...
It's always worth ringing up and saying 'Look. This is gonna be a ball-ache for me and for you, why don't you just change it', but delaying that call until after departure - for whatever reason - was asking for trouble IMHO.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mad_rich
0191,
I think that so far they have only allowed rebooking or refunds for cancelled flights - not for people on other flights who are worried about disruption. (If your friends saw a different policy, I can't find it now.) I've tried to be proactive about possible disruption on previous occasions (on inflexible tickets) with little success...
From ba.com:
If you are travelling to, from or through Terminal 5 between 28 March and 11:59pm (UK BST) on 02 April 2008, and your flight is operating but you wish to travel at a later date the following option is available: You can rebook onto a flight to the same destination providing it is within the original validity of your ticket.
delaying that call until after departure - for whatever reason - was asking for trouble IMHO.
Indeed it was - but the point I was making that BA disruptions are affecting a range of people, including those less savvy travellers. The policy is clearly linked from the main BA T5 disruption page, and is at http://www.britishairways.com/travel...b?p_faqid=3193
Not mentioning on this page that you need to change prior to departure is a bit silly in my opinion - and with the press in its current mood I would have thought BA would try to go the extra mile to help people out. Maybe they've just written off this week's press coverage?
Great post UK1 - I should also have mentioned that my friend said the woman in Newcastle was extremely friendly and apologetic, which takes some doing when you're clearly having a tough few days. to that agent.
Shame my friend can't go to Los Angeles though, and has lost the cost of the ticket - ouch!
Is part of it that they need more OLCI? If that is the case then offer everyone 5,000 air miles if they OLCI and then everyone will do it (even many of those travelling in F).
The problems is that OLCI still can't do everything for you. And we have been telling them this for yonks, but - surprise surprise - nothing is done about it.
1. If you OLCI too early for your first flight, you are then locked out of OLCIing for the next day return flight, and have to do it at a desk instead
2. If you PYOBP, then the SSCI machine refuses to give you an eticket receipt, which some of us like/need for record-keeping
3. In many cases, OLCI and the SSCI will not issue onward BPs for connecting flights.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shark67
If you are travelling to, from or through Terminal 5 between 28 March and 11:59pm (UK BST) on 02 April 2008, and your flight is operating but you wish to travel at a later date the following option is available: You can rebook onto a flight to the same destination providing it is within the original validity of your ticket.
What happens if you're booked into fare class I, for example, and the only fare buckets available now for travel next week are C and J? Do you get the change at no cost? If not, it is of very limited use, particularly for long-haul where the cheapest fares often have long minimum advance purchase rules.
If the answer is yes, then it is welcome but BA need to go a lot further and simply allow people using T5 in the next couple of weeks to ask for a refund. It would lighten their loads significantly and help the T5 service recovery a great deal. Maybe the measure that they have announced will help a bit, but it all seems a bit piecemeal.
On the emotive front, I have a strong feeling that T5-gate will not be as destructive to the existing brand value as some have suggested.
Before this week, the BA brand had a certain value (albeit lower than in times past). If everything had gone smoothly with the T5 opening, that brand value would have increased considerably. As it is, it has taken a severe knock. But I believe it will recover once the immediate problems are overcome. And the net effect will be that, with T5 finally delivering on the promise, that brand value will still be higher than it was on Wednesday.
Not sure if this has been reported above, but the reason for our (short) one hour delay today was that the baggage system is flagging pieces of loaded luggage as unaccompanied (no matched passenger on board), apparently in error. So we had to wait while they dragged the bags out, found the offending pieces, and decided who they really belonged to. Presumably this was an error, since every seat was taken, unless they were luggage from another flight, sent to the plane in error.
Apparently yesterday's 662 (delayed for almost 4 hours) had the same problem, with the baggage system deciding that (from what I hear) all the bags were unaccompanied. So, they offloaded the whole lot, and sent all the passengers on their way without their bags. Today's flight apparently had all the cases from yesterday's passengers. Most excellent.
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54 cancellations for Monday, according to the BBC.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uk1
I have an awful feeling that you are even younger than me because I've thought about why I (and mrs uk1) have felt so exceptionally outraged by what's happened and in thinking about it, and having some rather odd conclusions about it, - I wonder whether my rather odd conclusions might be more widely held amongst Brits.
The simple fact is that I'm old enough to remember when BA (+ BEA and BOAC) was not only merely the national airline but the nationalised airline. I (and everyone else) owned it. And I was bl**dy proud to. And when you went to Spain, you felt superior to the riffraff in Iberia. And when you went to Rome you felt superior to the riffraff that went Alitalia. There was, and I think more than is really currently appreciated, national pride attatched to BA. Not everyone - but I bet more than is appreciated. And when you climbed the steps and were greeted by a BA steward/ess you were virtually home. Even Maggie T. in her worst days caught support when she covered the new tail logo. Brits still feel love and ownership over BA, irrespective of reality. And BA is still to many of us the single key consistant overseas representation of much of what is British. And the T5 debacle has caused considerable harm to all of that.
And the odd thing, is that I do not notice any real lowering of standards amongst customer facing people at BA. On flights and in checking in, 99.99% of the time you can engage BA people and they respond, in the same interested and intelligent way they did in the halcyon days. These people are essentially the same people that were there when I first travelled BA - or the earlier flavours. So these exceptional people are still attracted to the BA ethos - that is until they discover the reality - hang on in - but then cannot do it any more.
Then we had all the debacles. The lack of sensitive staff management. The Virgin debacle. The unofficial strikes. And the rest. And now T5. And then cheating customers of overnight accomodation. Not telling customers that their baggage hasn't come with them until after they have arrived. Tactical cheating for short term gain.
The impression is that it is still the same high staff quality, and their level of commitment. And they have seen their "packages eroded" - but still stay on and they continue to love and protect the core product. But the management seem clueless and abandon the staff and do not understand the concept of "continuity of quality". And WW is clearly not of the calibre required for customers, shareholders, or to be a key custodian of the GB brand.
I think that a lot of Brits feel betrayed by BA's management because they are trashing something that they "love" more than they realised they did, which includes "Brand British" as well as BA. We feel he made us all Brits - particularly BA staff - look awkward and inept, when none were. And we're mad. But we need to reassure BA staff that we are "with them" in our dealings with them, and make them understand who we hold responsible.
This isn't just about the opening of T5. It's about trashing the brand, which is still loved (although us chaps and chapesses will never admit in an un-British way to such a thing), it's about letting the staff down, the customers down, the shareholders down, and the British Flag down. And that lays at the door of a single man. And he has said so. WW.
Forgive the clumsiness of the expression of the idea - it's difficult suggesting emotive, I hope others see a bit of themselves in it - otherwise I'll develop a squint.
My Dear. My very Dear. On this thread full of incoherence, tortured English, and what amounts to no more than gloating, your thread is a beacon of reason and light. PLease send this to the Chairman of the Board for you have spoken for all of of us who do indeed care. If this is your idea of clumsiness, then God help those who come under the oprobium of your pen.
You have crystalised the thoughts of all reasoable men and women, and given voice to our the cause of our anger.
Thank You. I only hope that I can ever do for you what you have done for me with these exact sentiments.
My Dear. My very Dear. On this thread full of incoherence, tortured English, and what amounts to no more than gloating, your thread is a beacon of reason and light. PLease send this to the Chairman of the Board for you have spoken for all of of us who do indeed care. If this is your idea of clumsiness, then God help those who come under the oprobium of your pen.
You have crystalised the thoughts of all reasoable men and women, and given voice to our the cause of our anger.
Thank You. I only hope that I can ever do for you what you have done for me with these exact sentiments.
Pucci Galore
Very nice words from uk1 indeed but I am afraid the days of flag waving and feeling of pride for British Airways stopped well before T 5 was even thought about.
It's a tough business running an airline these days and there is little room for sentiment.Similarly, our attitude to our railways changed when the tax payer was freed from propping that up as well.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLF
That's prompted me to dig up my report in the old thread from the first trial (27 September) (excerpts below - I've removed some less relevant parts but I've tried not to change the meaning of anything I posted back then).
As LHR Tim said, it seems that this exercise was pointless, with no lessons learned.
Quite outrageous to suggest that the exercise was pointless; the point was to be able to tick the box.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astralclouds
On the emotive front, I have a strong feeling that T5-gate will not be as destructive to the existing brand value as some have suggested.
Before this week, the BA brand had a certain value (albeit lower than in times past). If everything had gone smoothly with the T5 opening, that brand value would have increased considerably. As it is, it has taken a severe knock. But I believe it will recover once the immediate problems are overcome. And the net effect will be that, with T5 finally delivering on the promise, that brand value will still be higher than it was on Wednesday.
To a large extent I agree with you PROVIDED the problems get pretty much sorted in the next few days, and don't repeat when they move the flagship longhaul services from T4 - if that's like clockwork BA will be fine; if it isn't they will begin to suffer more serious damage.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astralclouds
with T5 finally delivering on the promise,
That's very optimistic. BA have already demonstrated that the "promise" wasn't based on testing and evaluation, it was just a dream of theirs, and I see no reason to believe that they are capable of delivering on it. Yes, some teething problems are to be expected, but when the gap between promise and delivery is such a yawning chasm, and when they are so obviously ill-prepared for things that don't go exactly according to plan, I simply have no faith in "the promise" any more.
Obviously, this is all speculation; and I hope it all goes well. But what I suspect is that in a few months time, when things have settled down a bit, it will bear some passing resemblance to "the promise" on good days, but as soon as things get difficult (bad weather, Monday morning rush, August holidays; or, even worse, an emergency alteration to the security regime) it will all go pear-shaped. I suspect BA will feel it hardest financially with a loss of Club pax who find themselves in the same long lines as everyone else, but even if they fix that it will just be putting a patch over the biggest hole at the front-end of a shaky operation.
Up to now, I have tended to defend BA and give them the benefit of the doubt, using them by default and making sure they get enough of my long-haul money (i.e. most of it) to keep my Silver status. I'm no longer sure this is worth doing.
to that agent.
(excerpts below - I've removed some less relevant parts but I've tried not to change the meaning of anything I posted back then).
