BA to lease 9 Qatar A320s + crews during strike
Jun 24, 2017, 7:03 am
#106
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,349
The decision whether to allow the wet leasing arrangement is for the CAA to take. The decision on any work visas (in the event that they are required) is for the UK Government to take.
Jun 24, 2017, 7:21 am
#107
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8. In order to avoid excessive recourse to lease agreements of aircraft registered in third countries, especially wet lease, these possibilities should only be allowed in exceptional circumstances, such as a lack of adequate aircraft on the Community market [...]
The effect of this recital is spelt out in Article 13.
Jun 24, 2017, 7:33 am
#108
Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club, easyJet and Ryanair
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Yes, in practice, although to be fair the restrictions on wet leasing from non-EU airlines do originate in EU law (EC 1008/2008).
8. In order to avoid excessive recourse to lease agreements of aircraft registered in third countries, especially wet lease, these possibilities should only be allowed in exceptional circumstances, such as a lack of adequate aircraft on the Community market [...]
The effect of this recital is spelt out in Article 13.
Jun 24, 2017, 7:39 am
#109
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,349
Yes, in practice, although to be fair the restrictions on wet leasing from non-EU airlines do originate in EU law (EC 1008/2008).
8. In order to avoid excessive recourse to lease agreements of aircraft registered in third countries, especially wet lease, these possibilities should only be allowed in exceptional circumstances, such as a lack of adequate aircraft on the Community market [...]
The effect of this recital is spelt out in Article 13.That being the case the answers to Modo's points about whether the EU is going to be happy, and it leading to some "deliberation" are effectively a) it's largely irrelevant whether the EU is happy or not, and b) it won't.
Jun 24, 2017, 7:51 am
#111
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 123
See https://en.wingly.io/index.php?page=...t&sub_page=faq under "Is it legal?"
Yes the rules changed around cost sharing private flights recently allowing flights to be advertised.
The rules are that the total cost of the flight can be shared equally amongst all people on the flight.
So it is a private flight and not commercial hence you do not need a ATPL/CPL and AOC.
Best regards
Lufty
Jun 24, 2017, 9:21 am
#112
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: London
Posts: 3,500
For those of us supporting the strikers, is there any point in responding to this response for consultation or is it effectively a done deal?
Jun 24, 2017, 9:42 am
#113
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Jun 24, 2017, 9:44 am
#114
Join Date: Mar 2017
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For those of us supporting the strikers, is there any point in responding to this response for consultation or is it effectively a done deal?
The best argument against it would be that there is capacity within the EU that could do this work. But there probably isn't in summer and certainly isn't from a single source...and even if there was a well written contract spec will get round it to make it look like there isn't.
So all that said. it's almost certainly a done deal.
Jun 24, 2017, 9:45 am
#115
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I'm not entirely sure but would be very surprised if the social consequences for the strikers were an area for consideration in the test as to whether the lease should be approved or not.
The best argument against it would be that there is capacity within the EU that could do this work. But there probably isn't in summer and certainly isn't from a single source...and even if there was a well written contract spec will get round it to make it look like there isn't.
So all that said. it's almost certainly a done deal.
The best argument against it would be that there is capacity within the EU that could do this work. But there probably isn't in summer and certainly isn't from a single source...and even if there was a well written contract spec will get round it to make it look like there isn't.
So all that said. it's almost certainly a done deal.
The test is—
3. A Community air carrier wet leasing aircraft registered in a third country from another undertaking shall obtain prior approval for the operation from the competent licensing authority. The competent authority may grant an approval if:
[...]
(b) one of the following conditions is fulfilled:
(i) the Community air carrier justifies such leasing on the basis of exceptional needs, in which case an approval may be granted for a period of up to seven months that may be renewed once for a further period of up to seven months;
I can't really imagine that a few emails would derail this. But they asked for comments so why not send in a short paragraph.
[...]
(b) one of the following conditions is fulfilled:
(i) the Community air carrier justifies such leasing on the basis of exceptional needs, in which case an approval may be granted for a period of up to seven months that may be renewed once for a further period of up to seven months;
Last edited by Calchas; Jun 24, 2017 at 9:53 am
Jun 24, 2017, 10:02 am
#116
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: UK
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these possibilities should only be allowed in exceptional circumstances, such as a lack of adequate aircraft on the Community market, and they should be strictly limited in time
In the other interpretation: that it is the requirement that's exceptional well, it's not exactly equivalent but the EU regs specifically includes any industrial action when allowing passenger disruption claims to be dismissed for exceptional circumstances. So if I was the airline (and I'm not) I'd start the argument there.
Jun 24, 2017, 1:52 pm
#117
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: somewhere north of stateside...
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I would guess that an objection from any available EU source of wet leased aircraft might be the most likely to give the CAA pause on this, rather than the input of consumers, Unite, or others.
A company like Thomas Cook could likely make a decent argument that even if they had a single aircraft/crew available for a wet lease, that single aircraft should be used before Qatar Airways aircraft are used to meet BA needs.
Separately, it interesting that the comment period is open for ten working days from 22 June (to 5 or 6 July, depending on how you count), while BA is proposing to deploy the wet leases from 1 July.
A company like Thomas Cook could likely make a decent argument that even if they had a single aircraft/crew available for a wet lease, that single aircraft should be used before Qatar Airways aircraft are used to meet BA needs.
Separately, it interesting that the comment period is open for ten working days from 22 June (to 5 or 6 July, depending on how you count), while BA is proposing to deploy the wet leases from 1 July.
Jun 24, 2017, 3:19 pm
#118
Join Date: Jul 2011
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I would guess that an objection from any available EU source of wet leased aircraft might be the most likely to give the CAA pause on this, rather than the input of consumers, Unite, or others.
A company like Thomas Cook could likely make a decent argument that even if they had a single aircraft/crew available for a wet lease, that single aircraft should be used before Qatar Airways aircraft are used to meet BA needs.
Separately, it interesting that the comment period is open for ten working days from 22 June (to 5 or 6 July, depending on how you count), while BA is proposing to deploy the wet leases from 1 July.
A company like Thomas Cook could likely make a decent argument that even if they had a single aircraft/crew available for a wet lease, that single aircraft should be used before Qatar Airways aircraft are used to meet BA needs.
Separately, it interesting that the comment period is open for ten working days from 22 June (to 5 or 6 July, depending on how you count), while BA is proposing to deploy the wet leases from 1 July.
A simple google shows this as an example;
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/n...0s-this-summer
http://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-a321-3830.htm
Jun 25, 2017, 1:20 am
#119
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Summer schedules are the busiest for all carriers in Europe, its highly unlikely that there is any spare aircraft available for wetlease to BA. TK, or the ME3 on the other hand.... 
Jun 25, 2017, 1:58 am
#120
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I think we can safely make an assumption that BA attempted to get the wet leases from within the EEA like they have done on previous strikes, having not been able to do so, the case for exceptional circumstances within the EC directive appears met.
The choice of 2 months would appear to be proportional to cover the busiest months of the EU aviation calendar after which wet leases from within the EEA may be available (if not industrial harmony restored).
As much as we wish to support the hard working CC in their endeavour for fair pay and conditions; the CAA shouldn't be concerning themselves in industrial relations unless it impacts on safety or the consumer.
The wet lease would appear to ensure continuity for operations for the consumer whilst no doubt still impacting on BA's bottom line causing impact for Unite (the upfront cost and the risk of pax enjoying their experience and re-evaluating this into their future flight choices).
I doubt the CAA will not approve this request unless it could be proven that alternative EEA aircraft were available.
The choice of 2 months would appear to be proportional to cover the busiest months of the EU aviation calendar after which wet leases from within the EEA may be available (if not industrial harmony restored).
As much as we wish to support the hard working CC in their endeavour for fair pay and conditions; the CAA shouldn't be concerning themselves in industrial relations unless it impacts on safety or the consumer.
The wet lease would appear to ensure continuity for operations for the consumer whilst no doubt still impacting on BA's bottom line causing impact for Unite (the upfront cost and the risk of pax enjoying their experience and re-evaluating this into their future flight choices).
I doubt the CAA will not approve this request unless it could be proven that alternative EEA aircraft were available.
Last edited by navylad; Jun 25, 2017 at 2:13 am